Talk:Margareta of Romania

Accused by Humanité- the French Communist Party Newspaper

Accused by Humanité newspaper, the French Communist Party Organ???? This is really serious, terrible! How will she ever get over this? Wow! How awful! Poor woman. Arkadiam 21:19, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Former organ. The political affiliation of the newspaper is, anyways, irrelevant. The newspaper report had quoted the AFP press agency: "puisqu’une très sérieuse dépêche AFP d’hier annonce (...)." Stefanp 21:52, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. You do not know what the AFP dépêche actually wrote. If you can find that, then you can quote it. It is l' Humanité that you are quoting, and that is your source. If Humanité's source is AFP that is their problem.

Second,the political affiliation of a newspaper is very important, readers have the right to know as much as possible about a source quoted in Wikipedia in order to assess it's verifiability and reliability. It is Wikipedia policy

[[1]] and [[2]] among other wikipedia pages.Arkadiam 10:16, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Which "royal family of Hohenzollern"?

Translation of the pertinent fragment from "Blackberry Juice" (in Romanian), Gandul, June 21, 2006: "Although it is known that some of the rust of the British frigates ended up in the pockets of the royal family of Hohenzollern, the Romanian authorities rushed to muzzle the affair. Because, as a two penny nation, we have groveled so much before a king crushed by history, that after we had "forgiven" him for his father's mistakes, for his flirting with the fascist salute, and for the "Pobeda" order of daddy Stalin, we didn't shy away from calling "highness" even an eater of public funds, through whose veins a blackberry ("duda" in Romanian) juice runs." It is clear that the fragment speaks of that royal family of Hohenzollern to which both Radu Duda and King Michael - who ruled under the Nazis, was decorated by Stalin, and whose father, King Carol II, made the mistakes of giving away Bessarabia, Bucovina, and the NV of Transylvania without a fight - belong: the Romanian royal family. Ergo, it is Princess Margarita's family which is being discussed in the article, not another. Stefanp 23:11, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Nice of you to translate for us. The author says the "royal family of Hohenzollern," so if you are using this source you must be precise, even if he is wrong. M.Dinescu does not say Margarita's family got the money, it is very clear from your translation. AFAIK the Romanian RF seems to get on quite badly with the Hohenzollerns. That she comes from Hohenzollern stock does not lead to the automatic conclusion that "her" family got the money. Editors must be sensitive when writing biographies of living people and adhere strictly to NPOV and avoid "interpretations" of the sources. Just quote them as precisely as possible.[[3]].Arkadiam 10:25, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

The quoted "royal family of Hohenzollern" is only one: the Romanian one, that is Margarita's. The German Hohenzollern forefathers of the Romanian ones are a princely, not a royal house. The only other Hohenzollerns, cousins of the former, who used to rule the German empire, are an imperial house. So there is no POV here about "her" family: these are well-established facts. Parisian2006 06:37, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

There is no "royal family of Hohenzollern" whatsoever. There is a Royal House of Hohenzollern which can be said to describe the Prussian and Romanian royal families. Charles 07:34, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Wrong, for two reasons. 1. There is no Royal House anylonger in either Germany or Romania. The Royal House (see Wikipedia link) is a State institution in a Monarchy. None of the two countries are monarchies, so they don't have any royal houses anylonger. Once the Monarchy overthrown, the Royal House becomes a deposed Royal House or former Royal House or simply a royal family. A royal family can still exist in both extant and non-extant monarchies, since it doesn't imply institutional State functions as a House would. Thus, the author of the article correctly employed the term royal family, which, indeed, continues to exist in Romania, unlike your claim about a non-extant Royal House. If Romania were to become a Monarchy again, only then we could speak legally of a Royal House. 2. The Prussian family is an imperial and royal family, not just royal family. The only royal family is the Romanian one. As about the exact name of each branch, while it's true that the genealogists like to name the Romanian Hohenzollerns and their German princely ancestors from the Swabian branch as "Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen", in order to differentiate them from their imperial Prussian cousins from the Franconian branch, the princes of various branches call themselves simply "von Hohenzollern" (see, for instance, this royalty news report about the H.-S. princes). Michael also styled himself upon his abdication simply "of Hohenzollern" (source 1 and source 2), not "of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen". Hence, it is correct to call the Romanian royal family either way: "of H." (as the princes do) or "of H.-S." (as the genealogists do). Either way, there is only one royal family, the Romanian one. The other two German families are one princely (the Swabian branch), one both imperial and royal (the Franconian Prussian branch). Stefanp 09:45, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

If there is no longer any royal house then why is it used in this article? Deposed royal houses and former royal houses are still royal houses! Royal Houses are not state institutions... "Hohenzollern" is not a state institution, nor is "Oldenburg", "Wettin", "Wittelsbach", "Bourbon", "Zähringen", "Ascania", you name it... The Prussian family is a royal family. Prussia was not an empire nor were all of the princes of Prussia titled "German Prince" or "Prince of Germany". If is not correct to call the Romanians the so-and-so family of Hohenzollern because that implies territoriality. Like I said, it should be properly amended to read Romanian royal family. In fact, I'm going to do it now. Charles 03:35, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

It is beyond doubt the author spoke of the only royal family of H., the Romanian one, given that: 1. the second sentence "Because..." which explains the first one about the H. family, makes direct or indirect references to two of its members: Radu Duda and King Michael, 2. there is no mention whatsoever of Germany in the entire article. Stefanp 10:00, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Then let's change it to Roumanian Royal Family! We don't need to perpetuate the sloppiness of others. Charles 03:28, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

OK. I further removed link left over from the sentence you had just edited out. Stefanp 19:50, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was concensus in opposition to the move. JPG-GR (talk) 01:29, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Princess Margarita of Romania → Princess Margareta of Romania — The Romanian version of the name appears to be Margareta, and the Romanian Royal Family's website refers to her as Margareta. I've seen it spelled Margarita in previous sources, but if Margareta is the way her name is spelled according to her family, then this should be at that version. Her sisters Elena and Irina are not at Helen/Irene, and I've just moved Sophie to Sofia, but this move might be controversial. —Morhange (talk) 03:18, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Support as nominator. Morhange (talk) 03:25, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose She is best known as Margarita and that is the name used in the so-called "fundamental rules". Charles 04:29, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment Which is odd, considering she's referred to as Margareta on the actual website. Morhange (talk) 05:17, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
    • That is fine and all but it shows that the Royal Family itself is not clear on the issue. It is also known that Margarita is more common. Charles 06:19, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose The December 30, 2007 royal Statute (the so-called "Fundamental Rules") uses Margarita in its English version, unlike its Romanian version which uses Margareta. The Romanian Royals seem to have a rule of translating their names from Romanian into English: King Mihai --> Michael, Princess Sofia --> Sophie, (future Prince) Nicolae --> Nicholas, etc. Lil' mouse 3 (talk) 07:24, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose. The question is simply what she's called in English, and it seems clear that this is Margarita. The other, undiscussed moves mentioned above away from English to Romanian should also be revisited, and probably reversed. Andrewa (talk) 09:00, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:UE. Her own English website uses "Margarita." [4] — AjaxSmack 00:44, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose in favour of recognised English version. Horsesforcorses (talk) 11:53, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Crown Princess

She is only Crown Princess by virtue of a document issued by King Michael that has no legal status. I will remove the reference in the intro. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 18:24, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

As she was born after Romania became a republic, should we calling her a princess? PatGallacher (talk) 16:41, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Is there an alternative supported by sources? For "Prince Paul" there is an alternative; what it be here? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 21:36, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Margarita Duda or Margarita Hohenzollern are possibilities. See Wikipedia Talk:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility)#Alleged princes. PatGallacher (talk) 22:50, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

The Romanian Wikipedia has her at Princess Margaret of Romania, the French and Spanish have her at Margaret of Romania, and the German and Hungarian have her at Margaret von Hohenzollern-Singaren. PatGallacher (talk) 18:39, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I would be surprised if she has been referred to by sources as anything other than Princess of Romania. We can't just invent names for people. - dwc lr (talk) 17:09, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Names vs titles

The article alternately referred to Margareta's paternal grandmother during her old age as "Queen Mother Helen" and as "Princess Helen". After I made the references uniform by eliminating "Princess", a new version was substituted yesterday, "Princess Helen, Queen Mother", which is jarringly confusing to English readers. While she may have been called "Princess Helen" later in life (as Beatrix, Queen of the Netherlands has assumed the style of "Princess Beatrix of the Netherlands" after abdication) the two titles are never combined in official English usage, and I did not find them combined in reliable sources. If anything, the unexplained (because unsourced) and incongruous combination suggests to the encyclopedia's reader an error in the text. Moreover, my use of the shortened form of that title, i.e., "Queen Helen", was also expunged, with the notation that she was never Queen (because Carol II of Romania had renounced his succession rights as crown prince before the death of his father, King Ferdinand in July 1927, so that Helen's six year-old son, Michael, became King, and before Carol took the crown from Michael in June 1930, he was divorced from Helen {June 1928}). Yet according to the chapter on Romania in Valynseele's Les Prétendants aux Trones d'Europe 1967, p. 332, once enthroned King Carol authorised his ex-wife to be known as Her Majesty and "Queen Helen": Both the most authoritative reference on royal and noble titles in English, Burke's, and Badts' Le Petit Gotha agree with Valynseele, styling her as "HM Queen Helen the Queen Mother of Romania". On another point, both sources also give the "name" of King Michael's eldest daughter, the subject of this article, simply as "Margareta" (this article uniformly uses the Romanian variant of the name, pursuant to the Move Request discussion shown above). But in the article's infobox slot for "name", "Crown Princess Margareta, had been inserted, redundantly appearing in the infobox as "Crown Princess Margareta, Crown Princess of Romania, Custodian of the Romanian Crown" (combining, where "name" is called for, a title of pretence as well as a confusing claim to authority since, at this writing, King Michael is still alive and has not officially delegated any dynastic authority he claims to anyone else). Finally, when I added to the article the maiden name of Margareta's mother, Princess Anne of Bourbon-Parma, this was deleted (as was that of her maternal grandmother, Princess Margrethe of Denmark, provided as context for the childhood holidays that Margareta spent in Copenhagen with grandparents who, as members of the deposed House of Bourbon-Parma, never lived in Italy but often dwelt in the grandmother's native country. Identifying the family names of a Queen's mother and grandmother in the body of her bio is usual when both are of royal birth. I have restored names and titles to the article in accordance with standard usage and cited references. FactStraight (talk) 05:43, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Pretender to the defunct throne

Should we now put in the intro, that she's the disputed pretender to the defunct throne? GoodDay (talk) 15:11, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

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Margaret's pretense title is Queen of Romania. GoodDay (talk) 17:44, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

It's difficult to discuss that without a source, since WP:BLP covers all pages including talk pages. DrKay (talk) 18:00, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

why presumptive and not apparent?

Who could have replaced her in the line of succession? Yes, it's moot now, but the words are not the same. See Heir presumptive --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 21:48, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

I have removed the category 'Female heirs apparent'. If her father had had a son, that son would have replaced Margaret in the line of succession. Alekksandr (talk) 20:32, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

Foreign relations

Do we need that whole Foreign Relations Section? or at least can we cut all of those lists of Offical visits she been on, welcomed, royal events she's attended, etc. Arg Matey (talk) 22:58, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

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Article title

She is styled as Her Majesty Margareta, Custodian of the Crown of Romania in the website of UK ROYAL: http://royalcentral.co.uk/europe/romania/her-majesty-queen-margareta-custodian-of-the-crown-speaks-to-romanian-parliament-93204 and in her own website: http://www.romaniaregala.ro/jurnal/margareta-custodian-of-the-romanian-crown-addressed-the-parliament-in-solemn-session/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by MonarchyLover (talk • contribs) 14:42, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

In the template of wikipedia, appears that she is CROWN PRINCESS OF ROMANIA. She use the title in pretense of Queen, thereby in the template should appears the title of QUEEN TITULAR OF ROMANIA — Preceding unsigned comment added by MonarchyLover (talk • contribs) 14:45, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure this article title should've been changed unilaterally. Is she now titular Queen of Romania? TBH, she actually has 'no title', as long as Romania is a republic. GoodDay (talk) 13:51, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

There's a picture of her sat in the Romanian parliament with a name plate saying "MS Margareta" at the link given above, so the Romanian parliament seems to think she's Majestatea Sa. She has also been accorded the style Her Majesty by both the British[5] and Spanish[6] royal families. Reliable sources are increasingly using the style Her Majesty and the title of Custodian of the Crown of Romania since her father's death, including the Red Cross[7] and state-owned TV[8] DrKay (talk) 16:57, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

IMHO, the article title should be Princess Margareta of Romania. GoodDay (talk) 21:22, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

deleted

Romania does not recognize Romanian titles of nobility: they don't exist in Romanian law. So, "MS" is just a way of being polite, it does not mean that the Romanian Parliament has recognized her title.

If the Romanian Parliament wants to be able to recognize titles of nobility, they have to pass an organic law, maybe even modify the Constitution. That's the way for recognizing her title. tgeorgescu (talk) 19:15, 30 April 2024 (UTC)