Talk:Prigorodny District, North Ossetia–Alania
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Requested move 5 August 2017
edit- The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Moved as proposed. After extended discussion, consensus favors title consistency for subtopics. bd2412 T 20:32, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
- Prigorodny District, Republic of North Ossetia-Alania → Prigorodny District, North Ossetia-Alania
- Blagoveshchensky District, Republic of Bashkortostan → Blagoveshchensky District, Bashkortostan
– per WP:CONCISE. The disambiguator should match the "parent" articles, North Ossetia-Alania and Bashkortostan. The extra "Republic of" serves no purpose when disambiguating from e.g. the other Prigorodny District. — AjaxSmack 04:44, 5 August 2017 (UTC)--Relisting. — AjaxSmack 02:00, 15 August 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 20:20, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
Survey
edit- Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with
*'''Support'''or*'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.
- Support. Proposed names are unambiguous and concise. But I see that Ezhiki is quite recently active, should we relist to allow them to respond? Andrewa (talk) 17:00, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose per below.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); August 17, 2017; 13:29 (UTC)
- Support per nom. There is no need to include "Republic of", it just adds noise for no value. — Amakuru (talk) 09:23, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
Discussion
edit- Any additional comments:
This would reverse previous moves
- 12:13, 30 July 2012 Ezhiki (talk | contribs | block) . . (66 bytes) (+66) . . (Ezhiki moved page Blagoveshchensky District, Bashkortostan to Blagoveshchensky District, Republic of Bashkortostan over redirect: rv undiscussed move which breaks a number of links and is contrary to the established practice)
- 15:50, 7 April 2015 Ezhiki (talk | contribs | block) . . (83 bytes) (+83) . . (Ezhiki moved page Prigorodny District, North Ossetia-Alania to Prigorodny District, Republic of North Ossetia-Alania: WP:NC:CITY#Russia)
but WP:NC:CITY#Russia does not appear to support the relevant move, nor is it obvious which links are broken (assuming a redirect is in place) or which established practice is contravened. Andrewa (talk) 16:55, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
- Sorry it took me a while to reply, but no one pinged me here (or the ping didn't go through?), so I've only noticed this thread by accident. To explain, for places in Russia, the disambiguation is by full name of the federal subject (which WP:NC:CITY#Russia demonstrates), to distinguish from the historical entities which often share the same short name. Something like "Nurlatsky District, Tatarstan" may refer to either Nurlatsky District, Republic of Tatarstan or Nurlatsky District, Tatar ASSR, but these are actually very different entities. This is not uncommon in the historical context. Prigorodny District might not be in the same boat, but what's the benefit of disambiguating one district by short name when every single other district (and populated place) is disambiguated using the full name of the federal subject? There is nothing to fix (a shorter name can very well remain a redirect), and having all Russian districts disambiguated in a consistent manner sure beats researching piecemeal every entity which might be like Nurlatsky District so it can be disambiguated differently just to meet WP:CONCISE. Note that the other Prigorodny District is also disambiguated using the full name of the federal subject. Hope this helps.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); August 17, 2017; 13:28 (UTC)
- The cases in question here are entirely different. There has only been one North Ossetia-Alania and one Bashkortostan (in English, anyway) and so there is no possibility of confusion with other districts of other entities. WP:PRECISION, which is policy, states that "titles should be precise enough to unambiguously define the topical scope of the article, but no more precise than that." We do not have an article titled "Rome, State of Georgia" instead of Rome, Georgia just because there could theoretically be a Rome, Georgia (country). There is something to fix: policy violations with titles that are longer than needed and disambiguators that do not match the parent article's titles, "North Ossetia-Alania" and "Bashkortostan". — AjaxSmack 04:30, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
- You are forgetting that consistency is also a virtue. We should strive to be both precise and consistent, whenever possible, but the benefits of sticking to precision every single time do not always outweigh the benefits of a consistent approach (and I certainly don't see how they outweigh them here). The wording of WP:PRECISION itself is that [u]sually, titles should be precise enough to unambiguously define the topical scope of the article, but no more precise than that, so it's not like there is no wiggle room. Note also that WP:PRECISION further states that [e]xceptions to the precision criterion may sometimes result from the application of some other naming criteria, with WP:NCGN (a guideline that in general tends to emphasize consistency over precision) listed as one of the examples. In all, how to disambiguate these articles best might be a subject for further debate, but painting the issue as a plain violation of WP:PRECISION is a rather misleading approach.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); August 22, 2017; 14:21 (UTC)
- No need to personalise this... just because someone disagrees doesn't mean they're forgetting anything.
- But so far as consistency goes, the article titles North Ossetia-Alania and Bashkortostan are consistent with the shortened names proposed here. Republic of North Ossetia-Alania and Republic of Bashkortostan are both redirects, so inconsistent with the current longer names.
- And so far as WP:NCGN goes, the relevant section is WP:PLACEDAB, and it doesn't support the longer names either, as far as I can see. Andrewa (talk) 06:42, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
- You are forgetting that consistency is also a virtue. We should strive to be both precise and consistent, whenever possible, but the benefits of sticking to precision every single time do not always outweigh the benefits of a consistent approach (and I certainly don't see how they outweigh them here). The wording of WP:PRECISION itself is that [u]sually, titles should be precise enough to unambiguously define the topical scope of the article, but no more precise than that, so it's not like there is no wiggle room. Note also that WP:PRECISION further states that [e]xceptions to the precision criterion may sometimes result from the application of some other naming criteria, with WP:NCGN (a guideline that in general tends to emphasize consistency over precision) listed as one of the examples. In all, how to disambiguate these articles best might be a subject for further debate, but painting the issue as a plain violation of WP:PRECISION is a rather misleading approach.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); August 22, 2017; 14:21 (UTC)
- The cases in question here are entirely different. There has only been one North Ossetia-Alania and one Bashkortostan (in English, anyway) and so there is no possibility of confusion with other districts of other entities. WP:PRECISION, which is policy, states that "titles should be precise enough to unambiguously define the topical scope of the article, but no more precise than that." We do not have an article titled "Rome, State of Georgia" instead of Rome, Georgia just because there could theoretically be a Rome, Georgia (country). There is something to fix: policy violations with titles that are longer than needed and disambiguators that do not match the parent article's titles, "North Ossetia-Alania" and "Bashkortostan". — AjaxSmack 04:30, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Move discussion in progress
editThere is a move discussion in progress on Talk:North Ossetia – Alania which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 12:44, 9 March 2019 (UTC)