Talk:Pour le piano

Copy edit

@Gerda Arendt: I started to read this and ended up making a few changes. I have confirmed "Avec une élégance..." here. Keillor seems to be wrong. Élégance is feminine. Jmar67 (talk) 00:42, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

Improvisational and "fugitive"

It's a quote which I presume is accurately reported, but I wonder if "fugal" was meant, since "fugitive" makes little sense. If it's a translation the adjectival form of fuge is fugal. 98.4.124.117 (talk) 05:29, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

Thank you, and next time please be bold and change it yourself. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:44, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

I normally do and would have done in this case but a) I was unsure of the matter of fact and b) this venue being what it is, not all the editors are like you and contention over clear and irrefragable matters of fact, with an unfortunately large class of editors, as my recent edit history as the current ip shows, are fairly common. Lycurgus (talk) 09:43, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

Restored to "fugitive". It's a direct quote. We can't assume the author used the wrong word. It makes sense to me, coupled with "improvisational". Jmar67 (talk) 11:39, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

Agree, however it seems likely that the source is (mis)using global English. 'Improvisational' is an unlikely coupling with 'fugitive', if it were 'impressionistic' that would work but fugue and improvisation are consonant. However as you say, the source is what it is. 98.4.124.117 (talk) 16:47, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

The English is apparently a translation of the German text. The sentence reads:

German: Das Improvisatorisch-Momenthafte seiner Klaviermusik unterliegt jedoch einer präzise geplanten Struktur, die das Verhältnis und Variation einzelner Segmente zueinander, die Auswahl und Mischung von Klangfarben ebenso wenig dem Zufall überlässt wie Tempoangaben und Spielanweisungen.

English: Nevertheless, this improvisational and fugitive side of his piano music is governed by a precisely calibrated formal design that leaves as little room for chance in the proportion and variation of its sections as in its tempo and expression marks.

I think the translation "improvisational and fugitive" is reasonable (momenthaft = fleeting or fugitive). "Improvisationally fugitive" might be better. We can rule out any meaning of "fugue", however. Jmar67 (talk) 03:06, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

Ty for the clarification. I think "fugitive" is a clumsy translation for "momenthaftig" but it's not our job to correct translations especially if they were done by the original author. I was only headed in the fugue direction because "fugitive" which would be 'flüchtig'. 'Momenthafte' isn't in Duden but there's this which I would translate as "transitory" so fugue was a literal misdirection. Fugitive implies an escape from something, the metaclass of concepts being things of shorter duration. 98.4.124.117 (talk) 05:57, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

"Fugitive" is apparently used here in its secondary connotation of "fleeting, of short duration". However, many people will associate it with "escape", which does not seem logical in this context. It is therefore ambiguous and not the best choice of words, I agree. Am also not sure that "momenthaft" fits the context of the paragraph in the reference, but that is another issue. Jmar67 (talk) 17:35, 11 October 2018 (UTC)