Talk:Poundcake (album)/GA1
Latest comment: 4 years ago by Another Believer in topic Detailed review
GA Review
editThe following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Reviewer: Lil-unique1 (talk · contribs) 21:18, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
I'll be reviewing this in the next 7 days :) ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 21:18, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- Lil-unique1, Thanks! ---Another Believer (Talk) 21:24, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
Initial comments
edit- Under the credits tab, Allmusic has some additional credits you could add to the album in a personnel section.
- Indeed!
Done I think I did this correctly (I understand we don't include 'primary artist' or 'featured artist'. ---Another Believer (Talk) 21:28, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- Indeed!
- These should be reflected in the infobox and also the track listing too :)
- I added producers to the infobox, but I don't think the credits are tied to specific songs. ---Another Believer (Talk) 21:29, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- Its standard practise to have a personnel section. See many other album articles. ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 21:31, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- Lil-unique1, I'm not suggesting otherwise. But can you tell which producers worked on which tracks? ---Another Believer (Talk) 21:35, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- No .. which means they probably worked on all of the tracks. This is quite common with smaller/independent releases. Overall the article is looking good and it shouldn't take much to pass. ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 21:44, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- Lil-unique1, Thanks! I will hold off on associating specific producers with specific tracks for now. I do not want to assume and discredit any folks involved. ---Another Believer (Talk) 22:22, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- Its standard practise to have a personnel section. See many other album articles. ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 21:31, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- I added producers to the infobox, but I don't think the credits are tied to specific songs. ---Another Believer (Talk) 21:29, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
Detailed review
editInfobox
edit- Record label - remove the word "group" per Template:Infobox_album#label
- Done ---Another Believer (Talk) 14:16, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
- Please add alt text to the infobox (see WP:ALT for help/guidance)
- Done ---Another Believer (Talk) 14:16, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
- Remove the fields | recorded =, | studio =, | genre = as these don't have any data to go in them
- Done ---Another Believer (Talk) 14:16, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
Introduction
edit- Reword - "Puppet" served as the lead single and received a music video → "Puppet" was released as the lead single, an accompanying music video was directed by Santiago Felipe. (you'll need to add this further down too, the director credits are on YouTube music video btw).
- Done ---Another Believer (Talk) 14:21, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
- Split into introduction into second paragraph from Alaska sold dolls of Lil' Poundcake onwards...
- Done ---Another Believer (Talk) 14:21, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
- For readability and ease of understanding split out the charting on the US charts etc. number 3 on Billboard's Heatseakers Album chart etc. Also order these from high-to-low. e.g. highest chart position first.
- Done ---Another Believer (Talk) 14:21, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
I'll follow up with some more comments in due course ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 09:02, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks! I will go ahead and add alt text for the other images as well. I forgot! ---Another Believer (Talk) 14:21, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
References
edit- Number 9 and 11 need links for Out and Billboard respectively
- No, both are already linked earlier in the References section. ---Another Believer (Talk) 15:14, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
- Similar comments for 12-15, 19-20, 23 ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 15:04, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
- Ditto. These are already linked earlier in Ref section ---Another Believer (Talk) 15:14, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
- Whilst over linking applies to the same section in prose, generally across references the consensus seems to be to link in every reference. Part of the reason for this is because readers often navigate to specific references from the prose and then back to the prose. The reference section isn't read in a single section like prose and therefore it makes less sense to only link things once in the whole section. Also it would provide formatting consistency with the chart template. ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 15:19, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
- Done ---Another Believer (Talk) 15:23, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
- Whilst over linking applies to the same section in prose, generally across references the consensus seems to be to link in every reference. Part of the reason for this is because readers often navigate to specific references from the prose and then back to the prose. The reference section isn't read in a single section like prose and therefore it makes less sense to only link things once in the whole section. Also it would provide formatting consistency with the chart template. ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 15:19, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
- Ditto. These are already linked earlier in Ref section ---Another Believer (Talk) 15:14, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
Composition
edit- I have some issues with the use of alumnae. Alumnus is generally used for males with the plural as alumni, and then alumna and alumnae as the female versions of the singular and plural. According to grammerly, alumni is also used to refer to a group of mixed gender alumna and alumni. I know this could get pretty complicated but in essence, many of the performers on the album have explicit preferences as to what their gender is. I think some harmonisation of this should be used throughout the article. Contestants or competitors might be better terms. Alumni generally refers to academia.
- Done I prefer alumnae, but I've replaced all appearances with either contestant, competitor, or queen. IMO, using "contestant" or "competitor" implies Alaska competed against them, when some of the queens appeared in different seasons. ---Another Believer (Talk) 21:39, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- Also when someone is referred to by their full name, the standard style would be to refer to them by surname thereafter.
- Not for drag queens, when their "last names" are rarely true surnames. ---Another Believer (Talk) 21:39, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- Not sure I agree with that. A drag queen's name is also a persona so not a true name in a sense anyway. But where she is going professionally as Alaska Thunderfuck, subsequent mentions should refer to her as Thunderfuck. This is standard practise even when writing about fictional characters. ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 21:56, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- Lil-unique1, I've worked on many articles about drag queens and their albums, several of which have been promoted to Good status. Those all use first names for subsequent mentions. I'm not willing to make this article inconsistent with those. If you can find a rule/policy I'm not aware of, that'd be helpful, but until then I prefer the current naming. ---Another Believer (Talk) 22:06, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- Another Believer had I reviewed them I'd have told you the same thing. However I didn't so as a compromise, how about just referring to her as Alaska in subsequent mentions including across the track listing? ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 22:08, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- There are no prose mentions to fix. I don't agree with changing to just "Alaska" in the track listing. If you want to make that change, you can, but I do not prefer this. ---Another Believer (Talk) 22:10, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- I'm not going to edit this for you as I don't want you to be unhappy or revert down the line however WP:ALBUMSTYLE#Track_listing is very specific: Note the standard method of attributing songwriters—write (and link) the full name the first time it appears, and then just give the last name (unless the first initial or entire first name is necessary to disambiguate it. The standard practise would be to refer to the first credit as Alaska Thunderfuck and subsequent ones as Thunderfuck. The choice to not refer to draq queens the same way is arbitrary and contradicts other music articles. I appreciate you want to maintain some sense of consistency across articles however, the style guides are very specific and it is inconsistent within this article as you've done it for Tomas Costanza. I don't see any reason why this should be different for drag queens, its even been done like that for artists like Madonna who are credited by their full name even though they're not known commonly (see Madame_X_(album)#Track listing). Btw, the examples I'm giving you aren't articles I've worked on - I'm trying to be neutral. ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 22:21, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- Lil-unique1, Ok, I understand, but Alaska Thunderfuck is a stage name. What do we do in track listings for DJs and other artists with multi-word stage names? Can you show an example of a stage name being used once and then a reduced version being used subsequently? ---Another Believer (Talk) 22:24, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- You're thinking of drag names being 'first and last', when that's not how they work. You would never refer to Detox Icunt as "Icunt". These are stage names. This would be like reducing Lady Gaga to Lady. ---Another Believer (Talk) 22:25, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- Lil-unique1, Ok, I understand, but Alaska Thunderfuck is a stage name. What do we do in track listings for DJs and other artists with multi-word stage names? Can you show an example of a stage name being used once and then a reduced version being used subsequently? ---Another Believer (Talk) 22:24, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- I'm not going to edit this for you as I don't want you to be unhappy or revert down the line however WP:ALBUMSTYLE#Track_listing is very specific: Note the standard method of attributing songwriters—write (and link) the full name the first time it appears, and then just give the last name (unless the first initial or entire first name is necessary to disambiguate it. The standard practise would be to refer to the first credit as Alaska Thunderfuck and subsequent ones as Thunderfuck. The choice to not refer to draq queens the same way is arbitrary and contradicts other music articles. I appreciate you want to maintain some sense of consistency across articles however, the style guides are very specific and it is inconsistent within this article as you've done it for Tomas Costanza. I don't see any reason why this should be different for drag queens, its even been done like that for artists like Madonna who are credited by their full name even though they're not known commonly (see Madame_X_(album)#Track listing). Btw, the examples I'm giving you aren't articles I've worked on - I'm trying to be neutral. ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 22:21, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- There are no prose mentions to fix. I don't agree with changing to just "Alaska" in the track listing. If you want to make that change, you can, but I do not prefer this. ---Another Believer (Talk) 22:10, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- Not sure I agree with that. A drag queen's name is also a persona so not a true name in a sense anyway. But where she is going professionally as Alaska Thunderfuck, subsequent mentions should refer to her as Thunderfuck. This is standard practise even when writing about fictional characters. ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 21:56, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- Not for drag queens, when their "last names" are rarely true surnames. ---Another Believer (Talk) 21:39, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
*See with Detox, its different because she wasn't known as Icunt on the show but event still she uses Detox on its own for music releases. Here Alaska has gone out of her way to use both names. In terms of examples: see Who_You_Are_(Jessie_J_album)#Track_listing - Jessie J is the stagename of Jessica Cornish (she uses her birth name for credits), Chromatica#Track_listing - Lady Gaga is the stage name of Steffani Germenotta (she uses her stage name for credits) ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 22:36, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Lil-unique1, OK, I don't agree, but I'm not going to argue over this as a hold-up for GA status. I'll change to Alaska. ---Another Believer (Talk) 23:22, 7 June 2020 (UTC)Never mind. I did this and it looks ridiculous. I'm not willing to change to just Alaska here. ---Another Believer (Talk) 23:24, 7 June 2020 (UTC)- But Jessie is credited by her real name. Here, Alaska Thunderfuck is credited by her stage name. ---Another Believer (Talk) 23:30, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- Lady Gaga is credited as her stage name and we use Gaga in concurrent mentions. I'm going to ping a few other uninvolved editors to see what they they think - Koavf and Status, do you guys have any thoughts on this? Happy to take a third opinion ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 08:41, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
- Lil-unique1, If I understand correctly, it looks like the question is whether or not to use the surname portion of a stage name the same way one would use a standard surname. I guess I'm not sure myself: I would certainly call George Orwell "Orwell" in prose or Elton John "John" but I don't think I would use "Gaga", likely because the stagename is not in the form of "Personalname Surname". I'm trying to think of examples like a rapper where I wouldn't refer to Snoop Doggy Dogg as "Dogg" in text. I don't know of any guideline or policy about stagename usage, tho. That's what immediately comes to my mind and how I would write about someone with a stagename. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 09:21, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
- Koavf, Also, using Snoop Dogg as an example... saying just "Alaska" in the credits is like saying "Snoop" (not Dogg). ---Another Believer (Talk) 14:19, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
- Another Believer but Snoop Dogg uses his real name for credits though. On his main bio page, he is generally referred to as Snoop_Dogg all the way through sans a few occasional references to Snoop on its own. Lady Gaga page is the best example because she's a featured article. I think in essence in subsequent mentions, they use Gaga because that is the most prominent part of her stage name, Lady is more of a title. With Alaska Thuderfuck, Alaska is the most commonly part of the stage name so with subsequent mentions I would just use Alaska all the way throughout, see User:Lil-unique1/Sandbox/Poundcake for an example. I don't think this will hinder the GA process but it does need addressing as it sticks out like a sorethumb. ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 15:14, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
- Lil-unique1, Right, I understand what you're saying, I just disagree. I don't think writing out "Alaska Thunderfuck" in the credits is a problem, but if you're adamant about trimming to "Alaska" in subsequent mentions in the track listing, then by all means. Again, I don't think this should hold up the GA review. Thanks, ---Another Believer (Talk) 15:17, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
- Another Believer but Snoop Dogg uses his real name for credits though. On his main bio page, he is generally referred to as Snoop_Dogg all the way through sans a few occasional references to Snoop on its own. Lady Gaga page is the best example because she's a featured article. I think in essence in subsequent mentions, they use Gaga because that is the most prominent part of her stage name, Lady is more of a title. With Alaska Thuderfuck, Alaska is the most commonly part of the stage name so with subsequent mentions I would just use Alaska all the way throughout, see User:Lil-unique1/Sandbox/Poundcake for an example. I don't think this will hinder the GA process but it does need addressing as it sticks out like a sorethumb. ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 15:14, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
- Koavf, Also, using Snoop Dogg as an example... saying just "Alaska" in the credits is like saying "Snoop" (not Dogg). ---Another Believer (Talk) 14:19, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
- Lil-unique1, If I understand correctly, it looks like the question is whether or not to use the surname portion of a stage name the same way one would use a standard surname. I guess I'm not sure myself: I would certainly call George Orwell "Orwell" in prose or Elton John "John" but I don't think I would use "Gaga", likely because the stagename is not in the form of "Personalname Surname". I'm trying to think of examples like a rapper where I wouldn't refer to Snoop Doggy Dogg as "Dogg" in text. I don't know of any guideline or policy about stagename usage, tho. That's what immediately comes to my mind and how I would write about someone with a stagename. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 09:21, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
- Lady Gaga is credited as her stage name and we use Gaga in concurrent mentions. I'm going to ping a few other uninvolved editors to see what they they think - Koavf and Status, do you guys have any thoughts on this? Happy to take a third opinion ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 08:41, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
- But Jessie is credited by her real name. Here, Alaska Thunderfuck is credited by her stage name. ---Another Believer (Talk) 23:30, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Another Believer I've passed the article cause aside from this everything looks great, good job! If someone else comes along and takes issue with the track listing that's up to them. I've gone off the standard style for albums but at this stage it shouldn't detract from an otherwise good article. ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 17:28, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
- Add a link for ad-libbing. Link to Ad_libitum#Music_or_rhythm.
- Done ---Another Believer (Talk) 21:39, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- Gay Star News is a website not newspaper so it doesn't need italicising. Will need checking in the references section too.
- Done ---Another Believer (Talk) 21:39, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- Lil-unique1, Thank you very much for reviewing. Sorry to push back a couple times, but I really appreciate your help overall. ---Another Believer (Talk) 17:29, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Release and promotion
edit- According to Producer Entertainment Group's website, they're an entertainment management company. No mention of them actually being a record label as per sorts. Although they're acting like that in this sense so please remove "by the record label". Their primary role is a management company.
- Agree. Done ---Another Believer (Talk) 21:46, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- Agree.
- Ref [8] (newnownext) release for "Let's Do Drag" takes you to YouTube. I think the link might be defective. Please check and if it is going to link to YouTube, try to find a more specific link to the song rather than the general channel. ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 21:31, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- Ref 8 does not direct me to YouTube. ---Another Believer (Talk) 21:46, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- In the video, Alaska and Gia Gunn recreate RuPaul's looks from the series' sixth season and carry large purses as a reference to Bob the Drag Queen. → the phrase "series' sixth season" is awkward, series is an international term, season is american. Replace the phrase with season six, it reads better and is more succinct.
- Done ---Another Believer (Talk) 21:46, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- reference [12] see comments about ref [8] above. Also if
- I'm not sure what you mean. Source seems fine to me. ---Another Believer (Talk) 21:46, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- "Her Poundcake World Tour was a rock music show featuring Jackie Beat as an opening act" feels a bit throwaway, is there no information about the dates etc? It might be better to also rephrase this to say something like, "In support of the album, Thunderfuck also toured the world as part of her Poundcake World Tour, a rock music show featuring Jackie Beat as an opening act".
- Done With slight reword. ---Another Believer (Talk) 21:46, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Reception
edit- I'm not comfortable with the inclusion of the sentence "NewNowNext's Dan Avery recommended gifting Poundcake as a Christmas stocking "stuffer" for Alaska fans in his 2016 "Holiday Gift Guide: What to Give the 'Drag Race' Star in Your Life" as NewNowNext is owned by LogoTV. This sounds like self-promotion as Logo was airing the show as the time. Sources linked directly to the artist or release would not be considered impartial.
- Ok! Removed. ---Another Believer (Talk) 21:47, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Track listing
edit- See previous comments about referring to Alaska Thunderfuck by surname only in subsequent mentions.
- I do not agree with referring to her as "Thunderfuck". ---Another Believer (Talk) 21:48, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
See also
edit- Inclusion of Adore Delano discography is very random. I understand that they are featured on the album but so are many other queens and there are plenty of links to them already.
- I'd like to keep the link. This article describes Adore Delano's contribution, and similarly, Adore's discography has mentions of Alaska. ---Another Believer (Talk) 21:49, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- Discographies can mention them respectively but it adds undue weight to Adore who was featured on one song. Not like it was the only single or even the lead single. See the guidance on MOS:ALSO and examples like The Fame Monster by Lady Gaga that features a high profile collaboration with Beyonce but she doesn't feature in the see also section. ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 22:01, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- OK I don't agree but I'll remove to pass GA. ---Another Believer (Talk) 22:03, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- Discographies can mention them respectively but it adds undue weight to Adore who was featured on one song. Not like it was the only single or even the lead single. See the guidance on MOS:ALSO and examples like The Fame Monster by Lady Gaga that features a high profile collaboration with Beyonce but she doesn't feature in the see also section. ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 22:01, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- I'd like to keep the link. This article describes Adore Delano's contribution, and similarly, Adore's discography has mentions of Alaska. ---Another Believer (Talk) 21:49, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Misc
edit- Overall its not far so let's say 7 days :)
- Check all links to NewNowNext as they seem to revert to the YouTube page.
≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 21:31, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- I've checked and the links work fine for me. Thanks for reviewing. Please let me know if I need to revisit. ---Another Believer (Talk) 21:49, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- Whenenever i visit any weblinks too Newnownext I'm taken to the Logo TV youtube page. E.g. http://www.newnownext.com/alaska-come-to-brazil-music-video-drag-race/11/2017/ takes me to https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuiK2XdDcyAd7TS9ioMqx6A/. I wonder if this is a country thing as I'm in the UK? ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 21:56, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- Lil-unique1, Maybe? I do not experience the same problem. ---Another Believer (Talk) 22:03, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- I've fixed and archived links as well, in case this helps in the future. ---Another Believer (Talk) 22:16, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, great shout! ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 22:36, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- Lil-unique1, Thanks, I think I've addressed all your concerns with the exception of using simply "Alaska" in the track listing. I completed the edit but then reverted myself because it looks wrong to me. I don't think this one disagreement should be enough reason to fail the GA nom, and I think this should be discussed on the article's talk page so other editors can weigh in. ---Another Believer (Talk) 23:26, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, great shout! ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 22:36, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- Whenenever i visit any weblinks too Newnownext I'm taken to the Logo TV youtube page. E.g. http://www.newnownext.com/alaska-come-to-brazil-music-video-drag-race/11/2017/ takes me to https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuiK2XdDcyAd7TS9ioMqx6A/. I wonder if this is a country thing as I'm in the UK? ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 21:56, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.