Talk:Postmodern Wicca

Welcome!

I have started Postmodern Wicca as a topic connected to postmodernism and I have created a linked article Postmodern Religion. For a similar example see postmodern christianity as I am using this as a model to help inform and structure my approach.

Postmodern Religion is a category within Postmodernism and contains two sub-categories Postmodern Wicca and Postmodern Christianity. I would like others to add more postmodern religions to Postmodern Religion if possible.

I am interested in including Buddhism, Shamanism, Ancient Religions and so on.

I would really appreciate any ideas, advice, contributions, deletions and so on.

Thanks--Kary247 (talk) 11:32, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Except for the first citation, establishing, in one publication only, the term postmodern Wicca, the entire article is essential an original research essay.--Vidkun (talk) 21:42, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

References have been included and there is no original research - in response to WP:OR template has been removed

"The publications that use the term postmodern Wicca/Witchcraft/Neopaganism appear in books, essays essay that directly mention the term:

• Lewis, James(1996) Magical religion and modern witchcraft - New York University Press - Page 46 - states that postmodernism is the most important outlook for Witchcraft/Wicca - this source is in the Wicca main article.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=lBrTPMonvMAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=james+r+lewis+magical+religion+and+modern+witchcraft&source=bl&ots=F69s0mgxZM&sig=kV7Pf891yy3tqFnSr__e0oUFh0g&hl=en&ei=WzENTeiCOs24hAf_57S4Dg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=postmodern%20witchcraft&f=false

• http://www.jwmt.org/v1n6/editorial.html Journal of Western Mystery Tradition - Neopaganism in a Postmodern Age - outlines that postmodernism as an ideology has had the biggest influence on the neo-pagan movement.

• Raphael, Melissa (April 1998) Goddess Religion, Postmodern Jewish Feminism, and the Complexity of Alternative Religious Identities ‌Nova Religio, Vol. 1, No. 2, Pages 198–215 (abstract can be found at: Caliber: University of California Press) refers to Wicca and Goddess worship as postmodern.http://caliber.ucpress.net/doi/abs/10.1525/nr.1998.1.2.198

• Eve, Raymond,Phd and Professor of Sociology at Texas University , Wiccans vs. Creationists: An Empirical Study of How Two Systems of Belief Differ - refers to Wicca as a postmodern religion.

• BBC Religions: Postmodernism http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/atheism/types/postmodernism.shtml

• CIRCLE SANCTUARY - Neopagan and Postmodernism http://www.circlesanctuary.org/aboutpagan/contours.htm

Starhawk - Wicca Expert of Jewish Descent - Comments that she is Reclaiming (Neopaganism) from a postmodern perspective http://www.starhawk.org/activism/activism-writings/RNC_update2.html

Sources that analyse religion from a postmodern perspective:

Patton, K and Ray, B (2008) A Magic Still Dwells:Comparative Religion in the Postmodern Age, University of California Press, Berkeley

It is also important to note that Postmodern interpretations of religion are supported by the theories of Postmodernism. There are many sources that can be included that connect to postmodern religion. This article is similar in approach to postmodern Christianity

As I have included many credible and verifiable sources - I am not sure why you have placed the original research and no sources on the template - please refrain from this unless there is good reason and please check the sources within the article first and, then, if you feel there is a need, add - citation needed - etc. rather than adding the WP:OR. Also, please use the discussion page BEFORE adding the template as it is a courtesy to me as the good faith creator.

Thanks

--Kary247 (talk) 22:57, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Notability and OR

Explained more than once on Talk:Wicca: WP:IDHT...

"Postmodern Wicca" sounds like a tradition (or current) of Wicca. It's also being described as if it exists, rather than as putative descriptions which may or may not apply to Wicca, as a whole (or its parts) which, would itself, be a further matter of opinion... There's nothing natural that's been called "Postmodern Wicca" and using quotes, I had gotten 8 matches total on Google, including WP articles.

It's OBVIOUS that Wicca has been called postmodern, (generically, sometimes along with neopaganism, New Age and Feminist spirituality), it a NON-ISSUE. The article should not be expounding/advocating what Wicca is, or any part (such as Eclectic Wicca did).—Machine Elf 1735 (talk) 02:13, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

As you have asserted that it is OBVIOUS that Wicca has been called a postmodern religion - this indicates that there is in fact, validity in started a wiki article on postmodern religion - you seem to be contradicting yourself by saying that postmodernism may not apply to Wicca and then immediately following with "it is obvious that Wicca has been called postmodern.

It terms of notability, I have created the category Postmodern religion and Postmodern Wicca here is presented as a subcategory of Postmodern religion which is a category of Postmodernism - there is no attempt to place postmodern wicca as a tradition, it is an interpretation of the religion from a postmodern perspective. There is another article on wiki that also follows a similar approach - please refer to postmodern Christianity as an example of an article.

Postmodern religion, including postmodern interpretations of Wicca, Christianity, Buddhism and so on, is a notable subject - so I refute your Not Notable assertion. It is clearly a reaction to our discussions on the Wicca page. I have included no original research in this article and it includes over 22 valid and credible citations, from institutions such as the University of New York, the University of California, a Pulitzer Prize winning author - stacy schiff, and also many noted postmodern Wicca authorities - starhawk. I have also included the perspective of jewish neopagans and gay neopagans - because I hope to present a broach and balanced view of the subject - added peacock to my contributions here seems a little bit ethnocentric. I am trying to emphasise a minority and marginalised perspective here, so give a little space and time for this to grow - see

"In articles specifically about a minority viewpoint, such views may receive more attention and space. However, these pages should still make appropriate reference to the majority viewpoint wherever relevant and must not represent content strictly from the perspective of the minority view"

For what it's worth, my own view here is that a new editor (Kary247) has appeared in a much-cherished article which has been raised to WP:GA status by the work of a large number of others over a long period. Not unnaturally, those of us in the Old Guard feel protective of our work and there's a certain amount of pride in it, which is slightly hurt by the implication that we have missed an entire and significant topic from out of our coverage.

I'm trying to put my pride aside and appreciate Kary247's additions, on the basis that I'd much rather encourage a new editor, especially one who obviously wants to be constructive. Right now however, I'm still finding it hard to see the notability of Postmodern Wicca. While I can see that postmodern thinking might have something to say about Wicca, none of the references convince me that there is a notable movement called Postmodern Wicca. It might deserve a small paragraph in the main article but the heavy concentration on this micro-topic over the last few days is a massive example of WP:UNDUE.

I'd counsel all sides to do less editing on this topic here, and focus on other areas of this encyclopaedia which are in need of attention.

— Kim Dent-Brown (Talk), 11:22, 19 December 2010 (UTC), on Talk:Wicca

[1] per WP:REFACTOR, to clarify the quotation by Kary247 (talk) 12:28, 19 December 2010 (UTC) — Machine Elf 1735 (talk) 20:22, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

• I don't think this topic has been 'missed' I just think there is more information now about postmodern approaches to Wicca and eclectic Wicca and I have suggested inclusion accordingly and I have included a range of good references to support the assertion.

As you have mentioned the WP:UNDUE. - I would argue the article that I have started postmodern wicca outlines that postmodern interpretations of Wicca represent the interests of minority and oppressed groups - this is why I have focused on semitic neopaganism, jewitchery, feminism, gay community etc. in my article over there. As per WP:UNDE "In articles specifically about a minority viewpoint, such views may receive more attention and space. However, these pages should still make appropriate reference to the majority viewpoint wherever relevant and must not represent content strictly from the perspective of the minority view." I have appropriately referenced Wicca as the majority viewpoint in postmodern Wicca etc. but people seem to be deleting this and reverted my edits when I try to do this - Machine Elf and "other" sock puppet type people. --Kary247 (talk) 11:48, 19 December 2010 (UTC) --94.175.145.18 (talk) 11:46, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

--Kary247 (talk) 11:17, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.175.145.18 (talk) 09:04, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

WP:REFACTOR Duplicate text from Talk:Wicca#Valid References citing many Wiccans do in fact view Wicca as a postmodern religion

Article is connected to Postmodernism and Postmodern Religion not Wicca

Postmodern Wicca here is presented as a subcategory of Postmodern religion which is a category of Postmodernism - there is no attempt to place postmodern wicca as a tradition, it is an interpretation of the religion from a postmodern perspective please refer to postmodern Christianity as an example of an article that I am using for my approach.

--94.175.145.18 (talk) 09:02, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

I also refute the not notable/original research - postmodern religion - and the many interpretations of different religions from a postmodern perspective is a very valid and notable topic for wiki. Clearly there are over 20 valid sources and the article has many citations. I think wiki readers would be interested in reading about different religions from a postmodern perspective. I also think that expanding the postmodernism article to include postmodern religion was a good move by Kary247.

would be interested in started an article focusing on postmodern interpretations of shintoism - any thoughts on where to begin here? --Pendragon111 (talk) 11:25, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Adding more sections?

Would it be possible to add a section on postmodern religious thinkers/contributors? --Pendragon111 (talk) 11:29, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Good Search Article

Hi --Kary247 (talk) 23:26, 19 December 2010 (UTC). You are off to such a great start on the article Postmodern Wicca that it may qualify to appear on Wikipedia's Main Page under the Did you know... section. The Main Page gets about 4,000,000 hits per day and appearing on the Main Page may help bring publicity and assistance to the article. However, there is a five day from article creation window for Did you know... nominations. Before five days pass from the date the article was created and if you haven't already done so, please consider nominating the article to appear on the Main Page by posting a nomination at Did you know suggestions. If you do nominate the article for DYK, please cross out the article name on the "Good" articles proposed by bot list. Also, don't forget to keep checking back at Did you know suggestions for comments regarding your nomination. Again, great job on the article. -- Kary247 (talk) 23:26, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

It's a bot! It's only going by length and the inclusion of references. It's not artificial intelligence, can't actually read and understand the article, and the message has no bearing on the quality or lack thereof of the article. It's simply intended to alert new users to the existence of Did you know? Yworo (talk) 23:31, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Unintentional Duplicate content from Postmodern Neopaganism has been removed

I have started a separate article, postmodern neopaganism and while I have been working hard editing this article I cut and past the info. there - the recommendation for deletion of this article is therefore not really valid anymore so I am removing the template.

I'm not sure I understand the above contribution, but I continue to feel this article should be deleted. I have therefore started a discussion for deletion - see link from panel at top of article page. Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 01:11, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Inappropriate gloss on reference

One of the references to this article reads:

Carpenter, Dennis. "Emergent Nature Spirituality: An Examination of the Major Spiritual Contours of the Contemporary Pagan Worldview", in James Lewis (ed.), Magical Religion and Modern Witchcraft (1996) in this text, Neopagan specifically means Witch and Wiccan.

I have twice redacted the final italicised words because I don't think we as editors can decide what a source means - we simply have to report it. If the author of the text uses the word Neopagan, then we cannot unilaterally decide that they really mean something different. I will not fall foul of WP:3RR by reverting a third time but would ask other editors for their input. Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 13:58, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Text relates to OXFORD HANDBOOK OF RELIGIOUS MOVEMENTS - Text Specifies Postmodern Wicca as Distinct From Postmodern Neopaganism and places it as an experiential postmodern religious in contrast to Modernist Wicca interpretations

• Note 1. In this text Witch means Wicca and refers to our research in American Neo-Pagan Witchcraft...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Handbook-Religious-Movements-Handbooks-Religion/dp/0195369645

• In her Introduction to Pagan Studies, Barbara Davies notes that Llewellyn Publications, the largest publisher of Wiccan and Neopagan titles, prefers its books to use "Wicca" as opposed to "Paganism"

Llewellyn PUBLISHING

• Anderson, Walter Truett. "Four Ways to Be Absolutely Right", in Anderson (ed.), The Truth About the Truth: De-confusing and Re-constructing the Postmodern World (1995) - refers to Postmodern Witchcraft/Wicca

The issue is not postmodernism versus a modernist perspective of Wicca - it is about included a balanced perspective -

We should be able to consider religions from a postmodern perspective. The article is proposed for deletion - at least give me a chance to get in in shape??

Further sources that specify Postmodern interpretations of Wicca:

"The publications that use the term postmodern Wicca/Witchcraft/Neopaganism appear in books, essays essay that directly mention the term:

• Lewis, James(1996) Magical religion and modern witchcraft - New York University Press - Page 46 - states that postmodernism is the most important outlook for Witchcraft/Wicca - this source is in the Wicca main article.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=lBrTPMonvMAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=james+r+lewis+magical+religion+and+modern+witchcraft&source=bl&ots=F69s0mgxZM&sig=kV7Pf891yy3tqFnSr__e0oUFh0g&hl=en&ei=WzENTeiCOs24hAf_57S4Dg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=postmodern%20witchcraft&f=false

• http://www.jwmt.org/v1n6/editorial.html Journal of Western Mystery Tradition - Neopaganism in a Postmodern Age - outlines that postmodernism as an ideology has had the biggest influence on the neo-pagan movement.
• Raphael, Melissa (April 1998) Goddess Religion, Postmodern Jewish Feminism, and the Complexity of Alternative Religious Identities ‌Nova Religio, Vol. 1, No. 2, Pages 198–215 (abstract can be found at: Caliber: University of California Press) refers to Wicca and Goddess worship as postmodern.http://caliber.ucpress.net/doi/abs/10.1525/nr.1998.1.2.198
• Eve, Raymond,Phd and Professor of Sociology at Texas University , Wiccans vs. Creationists: An Empirical Study of How Two Systems of Belief Differ - refers to Wicca as a postmodern religion.
• BBC Religions: Postmodernism http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/atheism/types/postmodernism.shtml
• CIRCLE SANCTUARY - Neopagan and Postmodernism http://www.circlesanctuary.org/aboutpagan/contours.htm

Starhawk - Witchcraft Expert of Jewish Descent - Comments that she is Reclaiming (Neopaganism) from a postmodern perspective http://www.starhawk.org/activism/activism-writings/RNC_update2.html Sources that analyse religion from a postmodern perspective:

• Patton, K and Ray, B (2008) A Magic Still Dwells:Comparative Religion in the Postmodern Age, University of California Press, Berkeley

It is also important to note that Postmodern interpretations of religion are supported by the theories of Postmodernism. There are many sources that can be included that connect to postmodern religion. This article is similar in approach to postmodern Christianity--Kary247 (talk) 14:34, 20 December 2010 (UTC)--Kary247 (talk) 14:35, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

My objection is to the gloss on the reference by Dennis Carpenter, not any of the references above. The Carpenter chapter uses the words Pagan/Neopagan and Wicca/Witchcraft at various times; however references to the former outnumber references to the latter by about 5:1. I infer therefore that Carpenter is concentrating on Neopaganism (and that unless the author himself uses the words "in this text, Neopagan specifically means Witch and Wiccan" their inclusion as a gloss on this reference is unwarranted. Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 14:38, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

• As you have acknowledged that the source does in fact refer to postmodern Wicca and Witchcraft - I would assert that The Oxford Handbook of New Religious Movements is a very good source that should be included rather than deleted and perhaps left so that the admin. who are considering whether this article should be deleted or not can decide?

--Kary247 (talk) 15:26, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Once again, I'm not objecting to the Oxford Handbook as a source. I'm not even objecting to the Carpenter chapter in Lewis's edited book. I'm just objecting to this citation being glossed with the words "in this text, Neopagan specifically means Witch and Wiccan" when Carpenter himself makes no such assertion, as far as I can see. I've tried to explain myself as clearly as I can but will now stop beating this dead horse! Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 15:35, 20 December 2010 (UTC)