Talk:Post-hardcore/Archive 1

so there should be light

• alright, i'm not calling to complain, i'm bringing light on the situation
• mars volta = prog rock, it's too out there to be post-hardcore.
• rites of spring = emo (yeah, the first kind),
• jawbox = good fit
• but you need elliot and texas is the reason, both post hardcore stalwarts, fugazi is a good fit, same with quicksand.
• jawbreaker = also maybe...
• you forgot shellac and unwound and the union of a man and a woman...
• braid too... sort of...

mmm, i think i'm gonna have a field day here trying to explain the difference between screamo and search at AllMusic.com or just Google it

• Refused --> review at Pitchfork ("this once strictly hardcore band..."), at Burning Heart, blurb at emusic.com
• Thrice --> search at AllMusic.com, review at Pitchfork
• Underoath --> album review at AllMusic.com, article from Alternative Press

It's not even that I'm a fan of these bands... There's just too much evidence supporting the "post-hardcore" classification. —Tarnas 03:33, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

see this.--Bouyeeze 16:38, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

New list of bands article created

For future discussion of bands' inclusion or otherwise see Talk:List of post-hardcore bands Paul foord 13:01, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Three bands

---

what about bands like the blood brothers, fear before the march of flames, and circle takes the square?

i dont even know WHAT to call them, although i've always heard them referred to as post-hardcore

I'd say they each qualify (The Blood Brothers, Fear Before the March of Flames, and Circle Takes the Square), though I haven't listened to any of them, and FBTMOF and CTTS seem to employ a little less musical variety than Blood Brothers, making them easier to keep in the more particular genres of mathcore and screamo. Of course, a lot of math and screamo/emo crosses over into the more general "post-hardcore" umbrella. I'd add Blood Brothers right off the bat... —Tarnas 01:27, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

I'd also say they should all be considered. I think they are the best example of how the genre is developing as of this decade. The article seems to focus mainly on post-hardcore in the 90s as of when it was first developing, with very little mention of contemporary post-hardcore music. I think someone should write a section on post-hardcore today incorporating these bands as examples of how the genre has progressed more recently.

lyrical content

The article notes the particular changes in the musical aspect of the genre, but makes little mention of the distinction between hardcore punk lyrics and modern post-hardcore lyrics, which I think is a really distinctive point. Someone perhaps could write a section about how in general lyrical content has become far more sophisticated compared to early hardcore music. As I understand it, hardcore punk lyrics were generally much more straightforward and simplistic whereas post-hardcore bands tend to make frequent use of complicated metaphors, and other devices. A common trend I notice is a lot of bands, such as the Blood Brothers to give an example, like to employ styles of imagery that don't seem to fit together from a conventional literary standpoint which creates a lends a very surreal quality to the lyrics.

Modern Post-Hardcore vs. Original Post-Hardcore

It seems to me like a lot of the debating going on here is very similar to the progressive rock debates found elsewhere on wikipedia. There was a huge progressive rock insurgence in the 70's and 80's with the likes of Rush, Jethro Tull, King Diamond and others. Nowadays, people have been calling Coheed and Cambria and other modern day, alt rock/metal bands, progressive rock. There is not a huge relation between these modern prog-rock bands, and those of the 70's, but the genre prog-rock itself as evolved into bands such as Coheed.

I would argue this is very much the same as what is happening here with post-hardcore. In the past, post-hardcore was defined by the likes of Fugazi, Shellac, Split Lip, and Sunny Day Real Estate. However I feel the genre is evolving into a more modern sound that, admitedly, seems to be defined more by metal then punk. At the Drive-In is a pivotal crossover band, where they introduced a much more modern and refined sound into the genre of post-hardcore, espcially with their last release Relationship of Command. This lead to the eventuality of bands such as Thrice and Thursday emerging under the post-hardcore flag. I would argue that Thrice's albums The Illusion of Safety and Identity Crisis are punk or hardcore, but their albums The Artist in the Ambulance and Vheissu certainly are post-hardcore. Vheissu in particular follows the post-hardcore article's definition to a T:

"precise rhythms and loud guitar-based instrumentation accompanied by vocal performances that are as often sung as whispered or shouted. The genre has developed a unique balance of dissonance and melody, in part channeling the loud and fast hardcore ethos into more measured, subtle forms of tension and release"

With Thrice and Thursday pioneering the more modern day post-hardcore movement, many bands (albeit some that shouldn't) have been called post-hardcore. There is now a lot of misunderstanding concerning the differences between modern post-hardcore, screamo, hardcore, and even metalcore bands. Post-hardcore is much more subtle than all of the other three genres, and often display a much more mature edge to their musics. However for a real definition of them all, see their respective wiki-articles. As a result, I feel the diehard fans of the 1980's post-hardcore movement have to give a little slack to the genre and realize that it is evolving into something with similar concepts and characteristics, but overall a much more modern and refined sound. --Bouyeeze 16:34, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Honestly, i agree... the post hardcore movement's center of focus is something different... but what is modern post hardcore's center? that's a real tricky question... if you ask me... where is it going so we can put up an umbrella over bands that can be considered phxc... your absolutely correct in saying that ATDI moved the genre into overdrive (not exactly but...) i'm in full agreance with you on the Thursday, Thrice issue... Now as far as 'the list'... i do have some issues with that... Alot of things that i would say fall under emo... fall under the catagory of phxc... most ... Now, you must understand, that so many of these bands have keyboards... and i don't find that to be the 'mark' of phxc... although one might think that... what else... post hardcore should be completely isolated from metalcore, honestly, IMO bands like the bled are directly influenced from hardcore... but that doesn't make anything influenced by hardcore phxc... metalcore is the verified hybrid of both... where as phxc is the hybrid of loads of jazz, blues, hardcore, some metal, some punk, some prog... whatnot... you get all sorts of things from there... but what separates phxc from emo? that's the biggest thing in my book... what separates the two of them... and then you start eliminating things from there... whereas phxc is "precise rhythms and loud guitar-based instrumentation accompanied by vocal performances that are as often sung as whispered or shouted. The genre has developed a unique balance of dissonance and melody, in part channeling the loud and fast hardcore ethos into more measured, subtle forms of tension and release" (i'm not a huge fan of that definition... nor most of all-music's stuff... i think their genre definitions are not only weak, but unreliable... i have found very little i think are actually correct... and then you ask yourself... is it correct? just because they say it's correct, does that make it correct? if so, i might as well point to some articles i've written on the subject (and have printed in magazines and ezines)... because the lack of quality sources are kinda, disheartening..) anyways... where i really get irritated with this definition is that it's way too constricting... i probably said this before... metalcore is totally channeling the loud-fast part of it... which is a good 'gate' if you will for the separation of them... but so many modern bands don't have the rhythmic diversity that comes with anything previous to them... looking at fugazi and quicksand as golden standards for both edges of it (maybe a bit biased, i know but...) precise is a horrid word to use there... because rhythm by its nature should be fairly precise... guitar-based instrumentation is basically a catchall for 'bands' and not orchastral or chamber pieces... "as often sung as whispered or shouted" is vague... "tension and release..." could just as easly describe my bloody valentine (along with all of the OTHER definitions included)... Mogwai (minus the vocals...) basically all of post-rock can fit into that category... and if that can happen... and that's a differently influenced genre (out of hardcore punk, instead of hardcore)... i think we can do better... anyways... --Evesummernight 22:34, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Emo and Post Hardcore connections?

What's the connection between emo and post hardcore?

Basically both are outgrowths of the American hardcore scene. Emo is a particular brand of post-hardcore music that caught on and developed into its own thing. WesleyDodds 03:39, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

concurred. they play off each other and the same influences and have much in common, hence the difficulty in finding a clear definition between the two. --evesummernight 08:27, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Emo takes a bit more of a Metal influence sometimes. It may help to tell you that sometimes Post-Hardcore is reffered to as Pre-Emo...not often,but sometimes. haha.172.143.100.113 20:51, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Post-Hardcore/Math-Rock/Noise-Rock connection

Why is Wikipedia's entry for post-hardcore bands filled with major label MTV2-style mall-punk bands, while the math-rock entry cites bands more accurately described as post-hardcore? Truth be told, post-hardcore bands share the same roots as math-rock and noise-rock groups. All three genres rose to prominence in the late 1980's, all endebted by varying degrees to D.C.'s Fugazi, Louisville's Squirell Bait and Chicago's Big Black & Jesus Lizard. One cannot completely separate post-hardcore from noise-rock or math-rock, thus it should be noted that all three genres draw from the same well.

Waves and Confusion

Can I just ask why theres seems to be no distinction between the post-hardcore movement that broke off in the 80's and the post hardcore "movement"(I'm not sure if it deserves the term yet) that broke off in the late 90's early 00's. Mentioned above in the origional vs modern comment new post-hardcore is very different to the sound that the term was created for, but in contrast to above I would strongly argue that modern PH is not a descendant of older PH, both are seperate deviants of the two waves of hardcore. Looking at the "definition and controversy" part of the article it beocmes painfully obvious. On one hand you have ATDI and Fall of Troy, two bands with an obvious similarity to old PH and on the other you have Thursday, Alexisonfire and Thrice with more of a simlarity to Emo and modern hardcore. Personaly i think PH as a term of the second wave isnt appropriate, post-emo would be a more accurate one but half the of the reason they call themselves PH is to try and distance themselves from emo. but still i'll attempt a draft rewrite soon using this distinction and whack it up as an alternative for review with an aim of making it the main article later on. and as a side note yes people will come up with examples like hundred reasons who arguably are influenced by both movements but still i think the PH and PE bands should be differentiated. Veridis 11:55, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

why doesn't the article cite a single historical use of the term?

I'd assume anyone who would call Underoath, Thursday, Saosin, etc "post-hardcore" has been listening to indie/punk scene music for less than five years. Speaking as someone who's been listening to that stuff for 10 years, the only times I ever heard the term in the 90s was once in reference to Texas Is The Reason, and then a couple years later in reference to Joshua, both relatively soft bands. Then in the early 2000s the original mp3.com used it as a genre categorization under which many harder rocking young emo/screamo bands charted, and it seems like it snowballed from there. I think the catagorization of late 80s Dischord bands as "post-hardcore" is purely retroactive, and redundant considering Rites Of Spring and Embrace are generally regarded of the forefathers of emo(core). I'd like to see some uses of the term in the late 80s/early 90s cited. I can't believe someone managed to have that entry accepted without citing a single use of the term in reference to those bands by any press at the time. I'm not convinced the term was ever used as anything other than a formal promotional industry press term prior to 2001, and hasn't been used since as anything other than a protective term for bands that don't want to be called emo but are clearly more influenced by Taking Back Sunday or other major-label alternative rock than any bands that actually have anything to do with hardcore. If you want to continue using the term at least define it as "bands that kinda sound like they might possibly have been influenced by hardcore or played it at one time". -Liam

Because it sucks, and was likely written by 14 year olds.Hoponpop69 22:56, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Blood Brothers

Today, it was removed. I think it should be re-added. Their page calls it post-hardcore, and while I feel their music is perhaps more schizophrenic then most post-hardcore artists, I still think it should be on here. FerventDove 03:26, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree and second this movement. SUre they are probably one of the most whacked-out (and awesome) bands out there but they always have their basic post-hardcore sensibility backing up their experimental music. - Gellister

Added a table

I added a table to the page...just thought i'd point that out. =P

More original 80s post hardcore?

Where are Mission of Burma, Husker Du, or Dinosaur Jr.? They need to be in the history section here.

Cap'n Jazz?

Just a thought....65.33.64.202 18:15, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

This article should not have another edit made to it until references are made

... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hoponpop69 (talk • contribs) 22:10, 23 April 2007 (UTC).

Trance?

Many modern bands are making the term "post-hardcore" contain a wider range of styles because they use a similar variety of vocal techniques, but take less influence from heavy metal. This also gives post-hardcore a significant overlap with a myriad of other genres like screamo, metalcore, indie rock, and even trance.

How could post-hardcore possibly overlap with trance music? Elsebroke 23:33, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

The Post-Hardcore band Blindside uses some "trance" or "techno" elements in some of their songs, like "My Alibi", "Where The Sun Never Dies" and others. Their first 2 albums were rather Hardcore/Metalcore, but they started developing more into Post-Hardcore.--Fatalyti 12:44, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

^^ Enter Shikari should be noted aswell —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.91.131.5 (talk) 04:27, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Ridiculous

It's ridiculous that no one really knows what post-hardcore is. Not that i'm some huge expert, but if I'm correct... Post-hardcore is characterized by raspy yet smooth screams and higher rather than deep vocals. See bands such as Memphis May Fire, a southern post-hardcore band or even the original Saosin with Anthony Green, or even Foxy Shazam?

• The problem with this definition is that the term is also shared with older bands with no contextual or musical link to more recent bands like Saosin or the like. Bands like Fugazi, Shellac, Quicksand, Jawbox, etc. were playing what many considered to be "post-hardcore" from the late 80s to the mid 90s. All Music Guide's page on Post-Hardcore details the older bands and not the new ones. Thus, the problem is that a term used to mean one thing is recycled to refer to a newer genre that is almost, but not quite entirely unlike earlier Post-Hardcore. See Post-Hardcore's much maligned and more famous cousin, Emo. Thus, this article fails because no one is able to differentiate between the two strains, making it seem like one phase of this genre descended from the other, when in fact the two are wholly independent from each other. TheLetterM 12:44, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
  • I will, however, admit that there are a few (but not very many) bands who share elements from both earlier and later post-hardcore, the two examples I can think of now are At The Drive-In and Refused. At The Drive-In were influenced by bands like Fugazi, and ATDI in turn influenced bands in the newer wave of Post-Hardcore (in terms of guitar riffs, stage dancing, fashion, and vocals). Refused had the same kind of influence. Both of their swan song albums, Relationship of Command and The Shape of Punk to Come are regarded as being highly influential with the new brands of "emo" and "post-hardcore". TheLetterM 13:01, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
    • Look, Post-Hardcore, and it's definition will always be in debate due to the simple fact of musical elitists )self-proclaimed, of course) and the little matter of SEMANTICS, which, in case you don't know, means differnt words mean different things to everyone and are therefore open to interpretation. I Believe Underoath, Thrice, Thursday, Glassjaw, Fugazi, I Am Ghost, The Devil Wears Prada, to all be post-hardcore bands. amen. 75.108.42.61 06:59, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
      • I think Post-Hardcore should be looked at in a more historical/chronological context. Its name alone implies some sort of placement in a timeline. That must be why AMG mentions the older bands only. New Post-Hardcore really doesn't come by it naturally in that it instead influenced by those original Post-Hardcore bands. Then leave it to the media and dumbass critics to convolute its meaning by mislabeling bands as such. Before long we have circumlocutive debates over "what qualifies a band as post-hxc" wasting precious minutes we could have spent getting laid. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.199.14.34 (talk) 22:24, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

HEAVY METAL

I THINK THEY ARE SOME HEAVY METAL INFLUENCES!! Minutes to Rise

hardcore itself come from punk rock and metal. so, no need to add such an influence here. 189.26.86.79 (talk) 16:07, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Stylistic Origins

Please stop putting random genres in the stylistic origins bit and hoping that they are correct. e.g don't put in Post-Punk just because it has the word "post" in it. The one's that are on there now are fine(Hardcore Punk,Melodic Hardcore,Hard Rock). they are also the most evident and noticeable influences of post-hardcore. thanks very much. x — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.188.134.253 (talk) 18:10, July 20, 2007 (UTC)

IT'S tottaly wrong what he said! hardcore,melodic hc and hard rock are not the styles!he has no link or things where is written that hard rock , hardcore and melodic hc are the styles! Hardcore punk,post-punk, experimental rock/music and heavy metal are the styles! because post-hardcore has got a lot of experimental influences and everybody can hear that a lot of post-hardcore bands have strong heavy metal influences! thx —Preceding unsigned comment added by Melodic Horror (talk • contribs) 07:08, July 21, 2007

Well feel free to give some links —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tomvasseur (talk • contribs) 12:24, August 22, 2008

References

Okay, so, this article is in serious need of references. Bickering about what you think constitutes post-hardcore isn't appropriate for an encyclopedia. Someone, somewhere has published something about post-hardcore, so let's use that instead of personal opinion. I've added a bunch of citation tags and I'm serious about them. Statements which aren't referenced in a month are gone, relegated to the abyss of the history archive.--Gimme danger 21:41, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm guessing that the problem with this article is the relative ambiguity with which the term "Post-Hardcore" is used. The term "Emo", while just as ambigously used these days, has a much broader coverage (see fourfa.com), I am unsure if there is an equivalent reference as such for Post-Hardcore. On another note, how valid is AllMusic as a source? The site has a page covering the Post-Hardcore genre, which has to do with much of the earlier bands, like Fugazi, Jawbox, Quicksand, Helmet, etc, and doesn't make reference to more recent bands like Thursday, Saosin and the like. I'll see if I can find more sources, in the meantime, I'm not too familiar with WP:V and/or what constitutes reliable sources, could someone check if this link possibly constitutes a good reference? TheLetterM 23:18, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

The link you gave seems like a credible source, it has an editorial board and all the writing is attributed. AllMusic is actually listed at the music notability guidelines as a suggested source. There are a few more sites there that could be useful. --Gimme danger 23:37, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Good. Thanks for reviewing that link, I'll edit into the article when my schedule permits. TheLetterM 23:39, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Even stodgy sources have some pretty good material. Google news brings up a bunch of hits (not all reliable though), the New York Times has plenty of material and the Washington post is a goldmine, although their archives aren't open. But I have university access to Lexis-Nexis, so I should be able to find any news articles if asked. I would do it myself, but I've gotten in over my head over at Buddhism and don't think I'll be coming up for air in the near future. But if you need anything, let me know.--Gimme danger 23:46, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

If you want to include Saosin as post-hardcore I'm going to have to insist you also include Blink 182 and Linkin Park. 149.135.105.142 02:24, 1 August 2007 (UTC)Liam

Oh, I'm certainly not clamoring for such bands like Saosin or others who are seemingly described as "post-hardcore" these days to be placed in the article, and speaking not as a Wikipedian but as a music listener, I detest all three bands you just mentioned. If that's conflict of interest, call me guilty. Regardless, the sources that we currently have on the article overwhelmingly point to the earlier stuff, and not what is referred to currently as Post-Hardcore. Unfortunately, it's often used as a catch-all term for bands these days who don't want to be referred to as Emo, and labeling in that genre is a fucking quagmire in itself. Even the writer of one of the sources for this article, Jeff Terich, stated at the beginning of his article that "My Chemical Romance, Thrice and Alexisonfire may be considered post-hardcore by some, but, well, they suck." Well then. TheLetterM 16:37, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Experimental influence on recent bands?

Uh, either a lot of the modern bands that get called post-hardcore are not or post-hardcore is not as influenced by experimental music as the article makes it seem. Unless anyone can inform me of Funeral for a Friend's deep appreciation of John Cage... Munci 19:07, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

• Experimenting within a genre doesn't automatically imply that it's influenced by Cage or Stockhausen. I did, however read up on the experimental music article, and it's firmly cemented by the definition of "music that challenges its very definition", thus in this definition, none, if any of the bands described in this article are influenced by Experimental Music. After all, most Post-Hardcore bands do play what the average joe would call a "song". That being said, what I said earlier- many of the early-to-mid-period Post-Hardcore bands had influences from various other genres outside of the Hardcore standard- Fugazi with Dub music, Big Black with Industrial rock, Quicksand and Helmet with Heavy Metal, The Dismemberment Plan with hip-hop and R&B, etc. As far as modern bands go, Funeral for a Friend really only takes influences from Post-Hardcore as far as its modern iterations go, and unlike the bands mentioned above, haven't tinkered with their sound they way the above have. (To be honest, I really haven't listened to FFAF, nor would I really care to.) TheLetterM 22:04, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

So what do you think should be changed about the article in this respect? The sort of thing where bands are one genre with bits of another is quite common AFAIK. Or maybe it's just that some genres are more prone to such mixing than others. I think if nothing else, "Experimental music" should be removed from the influences. Munci 20:22, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

• Agreed. I'll remove it from the article. I'll keep Experimental Rock, but from what the Experimental Music article entails, it shouldn't be in this article. TheLetterM 21:55, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Diference between original post-hardcore and new-school posthardcore?

i think that there is a huge difference between old post-hardcore and new-school post-hardcore. music and genres change with time so we should regard that point. old school is stuff like at the drive-in while underoath or alexisonfire are new school post-hardcore... where's the problem? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.56.167.126 (talk) 20:21, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that most of the music press often clumps the "old-school" and "new-school" forms of post-hardcore together, so it's hard to get any sources (other than the treblezine one currently on the page) that differentiates the two. Go to allmusic.com and their definition of post-hardcore applies only to the older bands, but invariably it'll go and use the same label for a band like The Red Jumpsuit Apparatus or Thursday or some shit. Hell, you mention ATD-I as an "old-school" post-hardcore band- you'll have to go a lot older than that, more like Fugazi or Jawbox or Drive Like Jehu (if you've heard of any of those).

I would love to be able to put on this article the discrepancies between the two so-called "post-hardcores" (not that I like the latter day bands, I abhor them), to show that there have been differences between what the genre represented then and now, the same way that what someone referred to as "emo" then bears no resemblance to "emo" now, and yet people, even professional music journalists, tend to clump the two together. TheLetterM 21:41, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

that'd be a good way do resolve all the disputes over the bands fitting into the genre. it's a bit like new ska, Reel Big Fish etc. would never have been regarded as anything linked to ska back in the day, but part of one of the many new waves of ska was ska-punk (IIRC), which is what they are. same as - say - the fall of troy are nowhere near the type of band that would fit in Fugazi's post-hardcore, but they fit into the resurgence of it along with Thrice and Hot Cross78.144.224.116 16:52, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

List Of Post-Hardcore Bands.

-->

Someone should put up a list of post-hardcore bands, yeah? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.55.81.217 (talk) 00:42, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

There was a list, but it was brought to AFD and deleted from Wikipedia. In its place, there is a Category of Post-Hardcore bands, which is better since you can't add anything directly to a category without adding individual articles. This reduces the chances of a street-teamer or someone putting their red-linked band on such a list. TheLetterM 00:55, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

geekcore a progressive experimental from of post-hardocre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geek_Hardcore A lot of the people on this page are discussing the change in Post-Hardcore and I have coined and started work on a page for what I view bands like late At the Drive-In, early TMV, Circa Survive, ect. as musically if anyone would add to my page post-hardcore bands they believe fit into the description given on the page I would appreciate it. I'm working on starting up the punk scene in my area and I'm obsessed with organization so I thought up this derivitive form of post-hardcore cause I listen to post-hardcore and geekcore (geekcore is what I coined the several experimental progressive post-hardcore bands popping up as) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tibbalz (talk • contribs) 08:23, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Unless you can come up with a reliable source that actually, non-trivially uses this terminology, it's nothing more than a neologism. From what it seems, I've never seen the word "geekcore" used seriously as a term in any music publication. If it's a term you made up, that would go under original research, which is highly discouraged on Wikipedia. That said, if you find any examples of the word used seriously in music journalism, then you might have a case, but until then, you don't. Sorry. TheLetterM (talk) 00:45, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Didn't know, thank you. tibbalz

Stupidness

Although old hardcore punk music was actually pretty good, it unfortunately changed into the post-hardcore genre. My point? I'm reccomending that the screamo article be merged into the post-hardcore genre article as screamo is post-hardcore. Now some may disagree saying that post hardcore is a more general term and that screamo is just one genre of post-hardcore. To those people: Whatever. Screamo is still a sub-genre of post-hardcore and it should be merged into the article. Blizzard Beast ^$ODIN$ 23:14, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

• I wouldn't have any problem with merging Screamo into this article as a subgenre of Post-Hardcore, though I'm sure other people would. I'm not too familiar with Screamo the way I am with Post-Hardcore, but I'm sure there will be people who are insistent that these two genres should be represented separately, and I'll wait for them to make their arguments before completely deciding one way or the other. TheLetterM (talk) 23:48, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Post-hardcore is separate from screamo. It's not even a case of one being a subgenre. Screamo is emo mixed with hardcore whereas post-hardcore is an experimental edge on hardcore. An equivalent in metal would be saying that experimental metal (being metal with an experimental edge) is the same as thrash metal (being metal mixed with another genre). Munci (talk) 23:09, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Oops, apparently this discussion's already over and I didn't realise it. Munci (talk) 23:13, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Screamo is not post-hardcore

Screamo leans more towards emo while post harcore leans more towards metalcore in that it has more ryhthm and less of the melodic style associated with emo —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.28.228.112 (talk) 03:13, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

If you look on the metalcore article, you will see it is influenced by melodic death metal, but Screamo is a fusion genre of emo and extreme metal and is not influenced by post-hardcore...much...so i agree. TeleTubbie ZOO (talk) 22:15, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

History

I've revised this article to reflect the 20 year history of post-hardcore -- I think that clears up some of the debates about the relationship between, say, Fugazi and Alexisonfire. I hope nobody minds this -- if people have changes they'd like to make, I'd appreciate it if they'd maintain the timeline form, as I think that makes more obvious the connections to emo and noise rock and generally makes the article less chaotic. I know the least about recent (past 5 years) post-hardcore groups. Aryder779 (talk) 15:48, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

• I don't mind at all, I think you did a pretty good job of organizing things. I'm sure that there's definitely a lot more work to be done on this article, and more sources to be added, but otherwise, good work. It's definitely a better article than it used to be, and hopefully, over time we'll be able to get a much clearer timeline of the evolution of the genre. TheLetterM (talk) 18:55, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Merge with Emo

See Talk:Emo#Post-hardcore merger for the merge discussion. Please don't post comments here as we don't want a split page discussion. MOTE Speak to me 10:37, 24 May 2008 (UTC)