Talk:Polish people/Archive 1

Archive 1

polacks

Ive never heheheheheheheard any polish person call or refer to themselves or our culture as "polacks" this is mis-information from n0n-polish people you can ask my 98 year old grandmother ,this should not be listed at all

DON'T MAKE FUN OF ME LIKE THAT! OR I'M TELLING GREG! Mariusz Zielinski 20:49, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

No one is making fun of you. We're just discussing topics that are based on this article. Gm1121983 20:16, 7 July 2006 (UTC) "Polak" is a Polish word describing a Pole. Sad but true. I'm Polish and I've never found the word "Pola[c]k" offensive. Quite frankly, I prefer it to "Pole". Sounds more Polish to me - and it is. - N —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.197.82.203 (talk) 16:02, 17 March 2008 (UTC) Regarding the citation "proving" that Polak is always offencive, if you bother to read all five entries, four say it is "offencive" (not "always offencive") and one makes no mention of offence. I have never heard of a Polish person taking offence to the term, and suggest its just an overly sensitive politically correct culture that is saying it is offencive. Whoever wrote that sucks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.72.160.143 (talk) 02:36, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Whoever wrote the explanation in a popular dictionary was a man of letters. You suck more, excuse the repetition.

1. Random House Unabridged Dictionary: "Slang: Disparaging and Offensive"
2. The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language: "Offensive Slang"
3. Online Etymology Dictionary: "considered offensive in Eng."
   

--Poeticbent talk 03:48, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

i see an error

how can there the number of Polish speakers in Poland be higher than the population of Poland.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.157.199.156 (talk • contribs)

Because lots of people in other countries can speak Polish. In the same way, there are more speakers of German than there are people in Germany, more English speakers than people in England, etc CTwells (talk) 19:13, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

The person said IN Poland not outside. Pay attention! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.16.12.22 (talk) 20:45, 8 May 2008 (UTC) Easy, the math was done by a pole! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.223.32.10 (talk) 09:19, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

old redirect

Redirect to Talk:Pole removed. Przepla 20:20, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Polack

Proposal for Polack to redirect here instead of List of ethnic slurs?

I doubt it is a good idea. Someone uninformed might think that it is a legitimate, neutral term. Alternatively, we'd have to list all offensive terms for the Poles here, which doesn't seem a good option either. Halibutt 05:46, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

Besides, Polack currently redirects to Anti-Polonism so this is outdated. --Joy [shallot] 14:06, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Pomeranians

Kociewiacy and Borowiacy are not ethnic Pomeranians. The only Pomeranians are Kashubians and Slovincians, since only they have preserved the Pomeranian language. However, the Slovincian group ceased to exist in the 20th century. Also, most sources from outside of Poland (and many Polish also) do not treat Pomeranians as a Polish tribe, the differences were too great. Completely agree. Pomeranians were Baltic tribes spoke similar language as Prussians and Lithuanians did. Moreover Germans, Danes, Sweeds and Poles together made lots of campaigns into these lands, latter to Prussia and even more latter to Lithuania. From the east at the same time Lithuanians fighted agains East Slavians (Russians). Half of nowadays Poland, northern part of Ukraine, Western part of Russia and whole Belorussia were Baltic peoples lands. At the time of Kiev Rus the land inhabited completely by Balts were called White Rus and occupied territories (inhabited mostly by Balts) - Black Rus whithin Kiev Rus Empire. This is were the biggest and longest massacres in the humans history...but as it is said - the winners takes it all. That's why the Baltic sea is called Baltic (means White). Moreover Pomeranians in Lithuanian language means the people living on the shore of the sea with such formations like the lake between sea and the river (there are lot's of them in nowadays Poland, Kaliningrad and Lithuania). Only Lithuanians call Poles 'Lenkai' and the land called 'Palenke' is now in Poland and means the land which has the border with Poland. However the word Poles originated from the slavian word 'polia' means the open lands or savanah, but this word originated from Lithuanian word 'Polekis' and means the place in which you can run or rush without any obstacles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.222.112.200 (talk) 16:34, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

title

I moved the article back to Poles because moving it to "Polish people" does not accomplish anything useful - most pages referred to them as "Poles", and "Polish people" doesn't really disambiguate ethnicity from nationality. --Joy [shallot] 22:46, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. Halibutt 06:16, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Someones frequent revert to 55 million Poles

Where do you gather the other 7-8 million unrepresented Poles? Even if the Brazil estimate is too lower -- that DOES NOT subtract 7 million Poles. Also, this in itself may even be an overestimation -- only reason I don't think it is is because the Polish birthrate was incredibly high recently. Antidote 20:29, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Antidote, you cannot just change enter arbitrary population numbers into the article. If you think a number is inaccurate or you have newer figures, support your edits with sources of the data. Also, pls watch your language in the edit summeries. --Lysy ^(talk) 19:16, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

What do you mean arbitrary numbers? Nearly all the numbers have sources! Antidote 23:08, 10 December 2005 (UTC)'

O, you wanted a source for Germany - I just put one. Antidote 23:22, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. That's very fine for Germany. --Lysy ^(talk) 23:34, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

http://www.poland.gov.pl/?document=48 Według szacunkowych danych poza granicami Polski mieszka od 14 do 17 mln Polaków, głównie w Stanach Zjednoczonych (6-10 mln osób), Niemczech (ok. 1,5 mln), Brazylii (ok. 1 mln), Francji (ok. 1 mln), Kanadzie (ok. 600 tys.), Białorusi (400 tys.-1 mln), Ukrainie (300-500 tys.), Litwie (250-300 tys.), Wielkiej Brytanii (ok. 150 tys.), Australii (130-180 tys.), Argentynie (100-170 tys.), Rosji (ok. 100 tys.), Czechach (70-100 tys.) i Kazachstanie (60-100 tys.). Tak duża liczba Polaków i osób deklarujących polskie pochodzenie, a mieszkających poza ojczyzną (dla porównania - 17 mln to ok. 40% liczby Polaków obecnie mieszkających w kraju), --Molobo 13:41, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Can you please provide an English translation for the benefit of non-English speakers here? This is after all an English Wiki. Thanks Chelman 13:53, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

That was for Lysy and any Polish users interested in the article. --Molobo 14:00, 12 December 2005 (UTC) There are mixed numbers of people declaring Polish ancestry (like in US - 9000000) and people declaring Polish nationality (i.e. Germany - over 292 000 of people of Polish nationality, but probably much more of Polish ancestry - maybe close to data from Polish government). Those two kinds of data shouldn't be mixed together, it is like adding metres to kilograms. Darzbor 13:48, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Couldn't agree more and wonder if more people have noticed. Lot of these numbers are like apples and oranges and yet what we see here most of the time are dogged fights over virtually irrelevant numeric differences while ignoring glaring fundamental issues. Jbetak 21:15, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Additions of "estimates" by Polish government

Estimates are estimates. For those statistics that are not sourced by official research these estimates can be added, but we are not going to have the messy addition of these estimates given by the Polish government, otherwise we'd have to include estimates given by any other place as reputable (and trust me there are many). People must realize Wikipedia is here to present the MOST reliable and realistic of sourced statistics not just ANY sourced information. The simple solution to this is to leave the page as it is unless one can provide researched information for the estimated values here. Those are the only ones that merit a change. Antidote 04:42, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't think you can get any more reliable then government data. As both numbers can be seen, and it most likely you won't get any final data on ethnic groups there should both Polish and foreign estimates. --Molobo 08:22, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Magically appearing 10 million Poles

The collection of data from Poles from the most significant diaspora populations is present as well as a not-so-prude estimate for elsewhere, yet because a few links from Domestic Agency's (not the majority) estimate there to be roughly (~) 60 million Poles, we have to assume that to be true? Where would the 10 million Poles come from? These estimates might have a basis but not for when Wikipedia is here to bring the most responsible and sensible estimates. Unless it can be shown where the other 10 million Poles come from, the total population estimate will stick with official census reports from the diaspora countries as well as a few sensible estimates (sensible meaning not saying 1,000,000 Poles in Puerto Rico). The Agency estimates will be placed in the main article. Antidote 01:11, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Subject of Ethnic Poles should be separate from vague word "Poles"

--142.214.108.101 (talk) 17:01, 23 October 2008 (UTC) For the reasons listed on the page. Informationguy --142.214.108.101 (talk) 17:01, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Add the word Lechitic

I don't know where to add the word Lechitic, but since it's mentioned that the Polish ethnic group belongs to the West-Slavic category, it seems that it would be appropriate to add that Poles belong to the Lechitic subgroup of the West-Slavic ethnic group of peoples. Informationguy

Numbers of Polish-Americans from 1990-2000

It's a pretty drastic change 9,366,051 Polish-Americans in 1990, compared to 8,977,235 in 2000. http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/c2kbr-35.pdf Informationguy

And what do you infer from this - if I may ask? Curiously Jbetak 02:04, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

That it's a change in numbers, it was interesting to find out. It's became less rather than more, what exactly do you mean "infer from this", this is not innuedo! I thought it would be important to state the difference from 1990 to 2000, that it's less now rather than more. What is the reason for this I would like to ask? Is it due to low birthrates, or high death rates? Or immigration? Which ones more so and why? Informationguy

Perhaps the Polish population in various countries should also be listed on this page as through the years: 1990, decade by decade. Or would that take up too much space? Informationguy

Sorry - I should have bitten my lip. I'm just a bit disappointed about the uncritical approach most of the editors seem to take. Virtually all the census numbers are quite problematic. Unfortunately, I believe that you might be jumping to wrong conclusions. I think the numbers should either rounded off or removed althogether. Jbetak 05:51, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

The links at the end of the page give full numbers not rounded off numbers. Thats all I can think of saying. But of course you can edit also. Informationguy

You have noticed the fluctuations in US census numbers. These numbers have the highest visibility, since they tend to represent the largest diaspora for most ethnicities.

The problem is much larger though. All foreign census results are inherently inaccurate in regards to ethnicity. Tabulation of ethnic origin is typically not the primany goal of a national census. The questions asked change slightly from census to census and so do the options a respondent can select. This explains some of the fluctuation.

Also, various countries classify ethnic origin differently. Some go by language, others by country of birth and some (e.g. the U.S.) let respondents declare their ancestry.

As things stand, we have some real issues when it comes to both accuracy and to the definition of ethnic origin. Although I can speak for the US census numbers with certain authority, I don't have the time to check everything in detail. Jbetak 23:46, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean by "fluctuation" does it have anything to do with some people on the US census listing themselves in more than one ethnic category? Informationguy

"we have some real issues when it comes to both accuracy and to the definition of ethnic origin" - Explain this, I already had a vote with someone else on the definition of ethnic origin and a consensus was reached. As a result of this, I don't want to talk about "definition of ethnic origin". I will let someone else decide on the definition of ethnic origin now. since as you said, that "various countries classify ethnic origin differently", then go on a country-by-country basis and make comparisons if you think this will clarify things. I did not write in the numbers on this page for Poles, besides the example I presented you with the population of Polish-Americans in 1990 compared to 2000. Informationguy

• So explain who is this "we" that you have some "real issues" with. How can "we" resolve these "real issues", the clarity of this wording is weak at best. Since I also don't have time to argue over everything and I just came to mention a few things that were left out or hardly mentioned, such as the word Lechitic. Informationguy

www.nasza-gazetka.com/Menu_Polonia/DIASPORA/DIASPORA.HTM >POLONIA> LICZBY/ROZMIESZCZENIE 8THERE ARE ALMOST 40 MILLION POLEN IN POLAND AND 20 MILLION ABROAD!!! 2 million poles in germany www.ruf.rice.edu/~sarmatia/401/212schlott.html

Regarding 'Polak'

One of my best friends is Polish (Born in 'Commie Poland', lived there until he was 8, speaks Polish fluently etc etc), both by birth and decent, and *he* refers to himself as (a) Polak. It's one of his nicknames, part of his email address and even written on one of his 2 keychains. So it's not completely unheard of for Poles to refer to themselves as Polak, though I'd be willing to believe that he's a little unusual. Anyway, the other thing I wanted to mention is that in Australia (at least), Polak is pronounced the way it's written, not as 'Poe-lock' as mentioned in the article. Perhaps it would be a good idea to make some note of the alternative pronunciation, or remove the current reference altogether?

AFAIK Polack has derrogative connotations in English and in German. I'm not sure about other languages. I can also confirm that the term Poles in Polish language is verbatim Polaci, the singular of which (i.e. Pole) would be Polak. Perhaps this would explain your friend's somewhat peculiar preferece. My $0.02 Jbetak 09:46, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

"Polak" simply means a "Pole" in Polish. That's all there is too it... I wish you people actually bothered to learn the language of a country you try to argue about.
(The preceeding unsigned comment was added by User:74.101.195.104 (talk)

Conversely, "Ruski" simply means a "Russian" in Russian. However, if used to describe a Russian by another person who is not a Russian, it becomes an insult. Just try to say it to a Russian-American and see what happens... or read about it at urbandictionary.com with the proverbial tongue in cheek [1]. --Poeticbent  talk  04:00, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Polish Population in Lithuania

I don't think that there are 300,000 Polish people living in Lithuania, maybe in Vilnuis! I watched a Polish documentary showing Polish children in Polish schools in Lithaunia (a bit redundant I might say :P) anyways, they said that there are over 250,000 Polish children in these schools I doubt that 95% of the Polish population in Lithuania are children :P There has to be at least a million Polish people in Lithuania Can you change the amount of Polish people in Lithuania, 300.000 is too small of a number The problem is that during 500 years of polonosation even some Lithuanians started to call themselves Polish or Belorussians (due to the slavian written language was used in Lithuanian Grand Duchy by Lithuanians, because we adapted latin letters only some 400 years ago and started to write in our spoken native Lithuanian language - there are huge amount of Lithuanian word naming rivers, places and lakes in Poland, Belorussia Ukraine and Russia)...so in fact the number of real Polish in Lithuania is less than 100 000, but the rest call themselves 'tuteish' and they have quite different language (mix of 3 languages - Belorussian, Lithuanian and Polish - that's why Poland had the pretext to occupy our ancient capital Vilnius) and this fenomena due to prolonged occupations from all the sides (Russia and Poland), but in fact they are Lithuanians by ethnicity (like my grandfather was, the family name and history of it explicitly show Lithuanian origins). Some 300 years ago even in the heart of Lithuania were one city in which all inhabitants spoke in Polish (Kedainiai), like 100 years ago lots of very famous Lithuanian people were speaking only in Polish (it is due to long occupation by Poles), but they kept themselves and their family tree showed pure Lithiuanian ethnocity without any impurity. So 20% or so Polish are purely of Baltic origin even family names are derived from Lithuanian words and not from Slavic roots. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.222.112.200 (talk) 16:59, 16 March 2008 (UTC) Moreover even Poland flag is half Baltic half Slavian indicating that White color is for Balts (means Whites) and Red is for Slavs (means Fame which associates with blood). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.222.112.200 (talk) 17:06, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Polish Population in Israel

There are utleast 300,000 polish people in israel, if you take into consideration their direct decendents -utleast one polish grandfather/grandmother (in my case 3.5 out of 4) the number can reach 800,000-1,000,000. I would like to ask from the regulars to add this figure to the numbers of the countries where there are poles. I see myself as a polish person like any other pole regardless of my religion. ...erm...yeah good for you. Now for the grammer check: We say ATleast not UTleast. (Sorry it's just really annoying me!) Polish and Israel both get capitals. Tut tut! How can you have half a person? If you mean half Polish just say it. Life would be so much easier for you if you did things simply and always tell the truth.

Polish Population in the UK

According to The Indepedent from Saturday 11 February 2006 there are now 750,000 Poles living in the United Kingdom. I've given a link to the Indy's website, but I think old articles might be available to subsribers only, so in a few days this link might not be accessible. Also I wasn't sure whether to put it above or below Canada on the list as 750k is more the Canada's lowest estimate but less than the highest estimate. You have misinterpreted the article. Ever since Poland has become part of the EU, thousands of Poles have flocked to UK and other places for jobs, however, they are not included in the UK census information but infact in the Poland census. Essentially, you are re-adding already added population numbers. Simple mistake, and it's been done before on other articles. 72.153.53.38

Polish Population in France

There's no Poles at all, or what ? Illmarinen 22:48, 16 April 2006 (UTC) Sure, probably 10,000 or so, maybe less. Find an accurate source that lists French citizens of Polish descent, not Polish people who work or travel to France. 72.144.161.84 23:41, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

According to that website about immigration in France, around 700,000 Poles immigrated to France in the 1920s. In the 1930s, many foreigners were expelled from France but there still were 422,700 Poles living in France in 1936. There are now 1,000,000 people of Polish background living in France, half of them from Nord-Pas-de-Calais. --Elnuevomercurio 13:44, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I think it would be fair to highlight that even if the number of Polish nationals is low in France compared with other EU countries (chiefly Britain or Germany) a million French people claim Polish ancestry. The Polish immigration to France at the beginning of the 20th century was massive and those people stayed. Does anyone know a reliable source to support that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.129.163.212 (talk) 08:06, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Polish Population in Germany

290.000 - this is only population of Poles living in Germany without german citizenship, true number of ethnic Poles is a much larger (over 2 mln to 3 mln) Illmarinen 14:44, 29 May 2006 (UTC) (sorry for my bad language)

that's right. the german politics don't tell the ethnic poles with german citizenship. The germans have a problem with the word "ethnic" because of there historie. --Plk 18:19, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

It is certainly true that the number of Germans with some Polish forefather(s)amounts to something like 2 or 2 million. However, as most of them (probably the overwhelming majority) have in the meantime mixed with people who are not of Polish descent, there are very few who could be called "ethnic Poles", and who would consider them as such. There are evidently exceptions, like Lucas Podolski in the German national football team...--213.22.66.154 (talk) 11:45, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Polish Population in Ireland

I have revised this to 116,206 based on the numbers of PPS no.s (needed to pay taxes) in Ireland which have been allocated to Polish nationals. These figures are credible so please whoever removed them before leave them there. Thanks. (Irishman) Whoever changed this to 150,000 if you are going to do that then provide a citation please because otherwise I don't think your figure is as credible as mine which comes with a citation based on PPS no.s. I have changed it back. Thanks. (Irishman) I changed the 116,000 figure to 150,000 and added a source for it. Also please checke out Poles in Ireland Taoiseach :)

This is a very simple concept to grasp. There may be 150,000 Poles living and working in Ireland, but they are not discounted from the 38 million Polish population in mainland Poland, so you are just adding 150,000 people twice. 72.144.161.84 23:45, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

As the latest Census returns indicate 63,276 Poles in Ireland,oh oh I get the fealing that's not good, I feel this should be included on the info bar. http://www.cso.ie/census/documents/PDR%202006%20Tables%2019-30.pdf (Celt2007) -2 April 2007

Ethnic Poles

I commented out some paragraphs from the Ethnic Poles subheader as the information was confusingly arranged, unclear, and unsourced. Cleanup of this section would be appreciated. Olessi 17:53, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

2 mil Poles in UK!!!

I noticed the extremist and liar website where that 2 000 000 mil Poles living in UK is confirmed. Hat guy is a just a stupid nationalist that has nothing to do with. It even says that the Polish diaspora counts 40 mil people(!!!) and is the second numerous diaspora in WORLD. How about Italians, English , French, Germans!! I mean who is enough stupid to believe that a country of 38 mil people like Poland could have a diaspora of 40. —Preceding unsigned comment added by NorbertArthur (talk • contribs) 00:11, 30 September 2006

        Surely Poland would be pretty empty if that were true =] 82.9.230.246 22:05, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

They really are Polaks?!

OMG! I just thought that was some duragatory offenseive term made up by Americans! Here in America Poles call themselves Polaks in jokes but I didn't think it was a real Polish term! T. Bartosz 21:04, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

As I am Pole I can confirm you that Poles are in Polish Polacy. I don't know what is that offensive term for Poles but Polaks looks as if someone tried to make English plural form by adding -s to Polish (singular) word Polak (which really means [one] Pole). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.25.102.123 (talk) 18:39, 5 May 2007 (UTC).

Here in America Poles call themselves Polaks in jokes No, here in America ignorant bigots call us Poles Polaks in jokes. I've never known a non-Polish speaking Pole (such as myself) use the term, as we generally do not make fun of ourselves. That being said, this discussion has no place on a talk page. Faithlessthewonderboy 00:28, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

"as we generally do not make fun of ourselves" - Yes, we do:) Don't make such humourless stiff bores out of us:) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.160.49.34 (talk) 15:11, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

But everyone makes fun of themselves and their nationallity such as us Irish always having a laugh but proud to be Irish. Polish people should stay in Poland if that's the attitude they have. Honestly talk about spoilsports!

Poles in Argentina

The link clearly says that there are 500.000 people of Pole ancestry living in Argentina. 250.000 is the number of Polish immigrants that settled there in the last century. Please stop changing the figures. --Elnuevomercurio 17:00, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Block Needed

Please block IP Address: 71.233.193.32 for adding 'john john john george was the first President'. I removed it to keep wikipedia looking good. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.93.119.157 (talk) 19:52, 19 December 2006 (UTC).

Official Census

Are there any official census about the Poles in world wide. Because those figures in the chart are quite different than this. [2] Ajda 02:22, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Definition & slavicity

Someone here is trying to rewrite the history of Slavs by removing Poles from that group. I'd like to see some serious proof before I choose to accept that ;) Definition seems to be an issue as well. I can easily understand why some might dislike such terms as nation and/or ethnic group but nevertheless they exist and should be used where appropriate. Using definition taken from the Polish constitution as a main one seems a bit strange to me. Surely it's been created by politicians who are not exactly experts in the field. So I see it as a big POV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.209.44.220 (talk • contribs)

Yes - please discuss all changes here; rather than reverting each other back and forth, the issue should be resolved before editing. I will be alerting all editors involved. -- Natalya 01:14, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

This change what an IP since two weeks do again and again is a drastic change of the article. And without source and without any statements. I don't think that this change is quite correct. --Plk 12:17, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Continued edit war over opening paragraph

The continued edit war from the last few days over the opening paragraph is unnecessary and disruptive. I would ask all parties to discuss the matter here and reach a consensus rather than continuing to revert. If this does not happen I will protect the page from further editing to prevent a continuation of the dispute in the article. Thanks, Gwernol 19:44, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Well that didn't work, so the article is now semi-protected for a couple of days. Please everyone, discuss changes here before entering an edit war. Gwernol 19:57, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I am waiting for statements about the changes.--Plk 21:19, 30 January 2007 (UTC) The anon slugfest is described at Talk:Poland#Poland.2C_Central_or_East; none of the anon's seem to like talk page - they prefer to revert war and discuss through edit summaries. Unfortunatly their changing IPs make blocks relativly uneffective, but semiprotection is a good responce.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  18:23, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Despite semi-protecion, the edit war has continued. I am disappointed to see that established editors continue to change the opening paragraph back and forwards. I am also disappointed to see editors on both sides throw around the term "vandalism", which is clearly inappropriate. I am particularly sad to see that there has been no attempt at constructive dialog over this. The article has now been fully protected, so only admins can edit. Everyone involved needs to come here and discuss the issue and reach consensus on an appropriate wording. Until you do, you cannot edit the article further. Thanks, Gwernol 12:06, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Edits of user:Spraspost will be always reverted and considered vandalism. Replacing interwiki links with quotation-marks is surely vandalism. As for the "problematic" definition, well, look at the map. - Darwinek 12:14, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Please review the edits that Sparspost made [3]: it is clear his primary objective is to change the related peoples infobox entry and to place Poland in Eastern rather than Central Europe. This is primarily a content dispute and this should be addressed here. A blanket threat to always revert another editor's contributions is not helpful and escalates rather then resolves the dispute. I urge you all to work towards a common consensus on this. Thank you, Gwernol 14:14, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

From official site of Poland's Ministry of Foreign Affairs ([4]): Poland lies in the central part of the European continent, the geometrical centre of which is near Warsaw. . -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  20:20, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Interwiki

The article was started in Romanian Wikipedia too. I see here it is protected, so if an admin could please insert the interwiki to the Romanian article - ro:Polonezi. Thanks. --Roamataa 20:06, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Done. Thanks, Gwernol 20:21, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

"western Slavic people" vs. "European people" in the first line

Czechs, Serbs, Slovaks, Slovenians, Ukrainians, Russians, Croats, Bulgarians, Bosniaks and Belarusians. All this articles use the form with "slavic people" and no one use a form "European people". Where is the reasen to do that in this article different than in the others?--Szkopski 00:16, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Please be aware that the article is meant to be read by various people from all over the world, some of whom might not be familiar with European geography and history as much as you are. There's enough space within the article to explain the ethnic roots, differences and similarities between Western Slavic people. There must be some kind of progression on the scale of importance from the beginning of the article till its end. --Poeticbent  talk  00:33, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

In the first line you have "inhabiting the country of Poland (in the central part of the European continent)". So you don't need to say it double. If in a country in Europe, than a european people. It's a logical conclusion. So you can leave the old version with western Slavic people. Everyone in this world will read in the same line that it is in Europe and if he want to know more about West Slavs than he must just click at the link.--Szkopski 00:47, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I have a bit of a difficulty with that one line you mentioned: "inhabiting the country of Poland." I personally prefer simple ways. I've searched Google for "a European people". You can read the results here [5]. There are about 16,100 hits for "a European people" in Google. Please doublecheck. You might also be interested in reading the statement made by Dr Judy Batt from the Centre for Russian and East European Studies of the Birmingham University: "Poles see themselves as a great people, a European people who have preserved their European values from which they have been separated by outside influences." [6] --Poeticbent  talk  01:11, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I changed the first line oriented by the Encyclopaedia Britannica and the article Czechs. Hope that's okay.--Szkopski 10:05, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid you didn't get my point. You insist on just one answer, which is to use Western Slavs in the opening line. And so you removed a European people again, which is inflammatory. This edit war will continue indefinitely if you don't reconsider you position. There are other ways in addressing the same challenge without upsetting other editors. Please, use your smarts and look for middle ground. It is naive to think that you or anyone else is going to win this edit war by being stubborn. If I were you I would leave the opening line alone, than again, it is your life, not mine. --Poeticbent  talk  13:40, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

No-one said why it will not be "western Slavic people". It was here changed without any argument. And before 14 February 2007 it was allways "western slavic people" in the opening line. So if you want that change than you have to argument why. I want the old version. The old version was so long there and is in other article so it should be again here. If you don't have any arguments that it have to be the old version whithout this change.--Szkopski 16:40, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

You want to save something permanently - an old version - from before User:83.22.75.22 came along and changed it on February 15. You're willing to fight for it. That's fine. Wikipedia is about constant change though. Just like you, I edit articles and strive to accommodate change in such way as to maintain the balance. User:83.22.75.22 will be back, so do what you wish. I'm out. --Poeticbent  talk  18:06, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Poles identify more with Western European culture then with term "Slavic people" which includes Russians or Serbs with which an average Pole doesn't share much common culture, religion or tradition. Ethnicly Poles are connected to West Slavs due to history, culturaly Poles feel connected to Western Europe. Polish nation also is made out of assimiliated Germans, Jews and Tatars-the template "Slavic nation" seem ideologically charged and innacurate.--JackNo 17:12, 17 February 2007 (UTC) source? any naziwebsites?

All answers are already there

Please take time to read the actual article. All possible answers are already there. --Poeticbent  talk  04:21, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Have you any source for your thesis? You say that the Poles don't be a slavic people. Without source for that it is wrong and have to be changed.--Szkopski 09:14, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Please read the article again. Here's is what is says:

"As to the ethnicity, the name of the nation comes from a western Slavic ethnic group primarily associated with Poland and the Polish language. Poles belong to the Lechitic subgroup of these ethnic people. The Polans of Giecz, Gniezno, and Poznań were one of the most influential tribes of Greater Poland and managed to unite many other West Slavic tribes in the area under the rule of what became the Piast dynasty, thus giving birth to a new state."

You might also be interested in reading about other European people in Wikipedia encyclopedia. --Poeticbent  talk  15:00, 17 February 2007 (UTC) Like Irish people(hint hint) we're great. YAY! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.16.12.22 (talk) 21:10, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

...and Muslim minorities

is it realy mentionable to list this? 0.018% of the poles are moslems. I don't think that is mentionable. Maybe there belong 20 poles to a Buddhism minority. Should we mention that, too? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.142.87.150 (talk) 11:14, 28 February 2007 (UTC). That is almost impossible (nothing's impossible) I'm pretty sure there is no religous group who call themselves moslems could be wrong though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.16.12.22 (talk) 21:13, 8 May 2008 (UTC) Tatar (Muslin) minority has a bit of place in Polish history, contrary to Buddhists. 88.156.220.218 21:03, 1 March 2007 (UTC) I also think this should be removed, even the source listed for that fact only lists 5000 Muslims while Atheists and Protestants number in the millions. Tatars are the only group to whom this specifically pertains and seeing as they identify themselves as Tatar they should not appear in an article for Poles. Unless someone presents a source for a significant number of Poles who are Muslim this will be edited. JRWalko 01:59, 10 March 2007 (UTC) Removing references to Islam after consulting the Central Statistics Office demographics data. They list many religious denominations and Muslim isn't listed. If it isn't notable in such a broad data survey it shouldn't be noted here. Will retain Jewish as a notable religion due to Poles living abroad. If anyone has data to suggest the contrary please provide it.

Why is Ireland not listed?

The article states that 150,000 Poles live in Ireland, yet this isn't mentioned in the information bar thing. Someone might want to edit it. I'm not touching it, I'd only break it. Big Moira 21:00, 5 March 2007 (UTC) The article also has two different numbers, one states 150,000 Poles in Ireland, other says 200,000 left for Ireland. No citation on either one and the Irish public info only has numbers from 2002. If someone has a good source for a number please provide it so we can update the article.

first line needs editing

please correct the first sentence; it should say mother language, not mother tongue; tongue is just a body part; language is a form of communication —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Johnsp (talk • contribs) 22:58, 6 March 2007 (UTC).

Mexico and Turkey

It seems that the 55,000 of Poles in Mexico may be erroneous, perhaps 5,000? Also Turkey closes out the list with 2,000 while Slovakia, Sweden, Norway, and France, all countries with Polish populations well above 2,000 remain unlisted. JRWalko 01:30, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

The infobox

On 08:53, 26 March 2007 Horvat Den wrote in his edit summary: (why did you revert? Those statistics are a complete farce continually added by a vandal anon. The millions of Poles he keeps adding are completely unsubstantiated). Then, he went on to rewrite the entire infobox. So I checked what Horvat Den meant and found out that two numbers might have been changed, but all additional revisions made by Horvat Den on that date can be considered disruptive. Here are the specifics:

• Natalya reverted stats edit by 201.26.164.157 to last version by 82.19.15.172 [7]
• Poeticbent reverted stats edit by User:201.42.32.70 [8]
• User:64.171.134.239, Mexico: 5,000 => 55,000 [9] not yet reverted
• User:84.142.114.69, Total population=60 million => 55-60 million [10]
• User:213.39.160.20, Total population=50 million => 60 million [11] changed (see above)
• Revision as of 10:32, 13 January 2007 Horvat Den, Total population=55-60 million => 50 million [12] changed (see above)

I brought the infobox back to its original state with the inclussion of Mexico: 5,000. Total population: 50 million as requested by Horvat Den is lacking outside reference (see: [1] - no source provided). I'd like to encourage you to bring it in before changing the numbers again. --Poeticbent  talk  16:01, 26 March 2007 (UTC) But all additional revisions made by Horvat Den on that date can be considered disruptive? Oh please. Stop acting so bureacratic and stop singling me out. You write this like I stole a nuclear warhead. Besides, you only looked back a few weeks at most. The reverts have been taking place since last year, and the Germany number has been fiddled with every since I joined wikipedia. I have to revert back to the original well-sourced numbers nearly every month because the anons keep playing with them. Your analysis of my reverts like they're vandalism is just feeding their fire. Horvat Den 23:19, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

idiotopedia

"Since Poland joined the EU in May 2004, 307,670 Poles have registered to work in the United Kingdom" hahaha very important information (and sole) about modern Polish Nation. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.242.104.9 (talk) 21:34, 4 April 2007 (UTC). Its stupid, its like saying, The english people have robbed india from its wealth.

Polanski on image

Somebody please replace Polanski on the image of Polish representative. He hardly passes as a universal representative of the Polish nation. LeszekB 09:21, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

More directly, he isn't ethnically Polish. 76.182.116.210 20:36, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

"related groups" info removed from infobox

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 17:23, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Can we settle the religion dispute?

I think the infobox mentions too many religions. The numbers of the minorities are so tiny I don't think they deserve to be noted there. Virtually every country in the world in the 21st century will have minorities of some religious groups so is it really necessary to mention these in this article? The breakdown for Poland I found is as follows: Orthodox - 500,000 or .01%, Jehovah's Witnesses - 125,000 or .003%, Protestant - .002%, Muslim - 30,000 or .0007%. I haven't found an exact number for Poles living abroad but I doubt that they change these numbers much. A significant number of Polish Jews lives in other countries so that perhaps should be noted but the religions I named above really don't constitute large enough portions of Poles to be noted. Secondly, a large number of those practising the Protestant and Muslim denominations don't even declare themselves as Poles but rather Germans and Tatars. Bottom line is that given that 90-95% of the people in Poland are Catholic and the Polonia in the US is also predominatly Catholic I don't think these other religions should be mentioned. JRWalko 18:27, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

How about mentioning only these, that account for more than 1% of the population ? --Lysy^talk 18:40, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I’m not sure whether we should decide anything without input from other editors. On whose authority do we choose what exact percentage point of Polish population is worth mentioning in the infobox? Personally, I’d rather be adding than extracting. --Poeticbent  talk  19:20, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I put up a notice on the WikiProject Poland notice board asking for input from other editors. JRWalko 19:37, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I support e.g. giving to infobox 5 most numerous religions. The fact that e.g. to Round Table talks in 1989 was invited a Lutheran Bishop (along with only two Roman Catholic representatives) speaks for itself. Other historical religions have also "their" strong regions in Poland, so they are surely notable. I see no harm in having them in infobox. - Darwinek 19:42, 20 May 2007 (UTC) I'd strongly recommend refering readers to religion in Poland, and interested editors to improve what is know a pitful stub.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  23:29, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

We should not confuse "Poland" with "Poles", as the latter are not the only ethnic group in Poland. Similarly, we should not confuse "religion in Poland" with "religion of Poles". --Lysy^talk 23:46, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Following the example of Germans, Britons, Austrians, and other articles listing religion I think it should say "Predominantly Roman Catholic, with other Christian, Jewish, and secular minorities." The religions below 1% are simply not statistically significant to be individually listed.JRWalko 02:40, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Article about Britons puzzles me a bit. We all know about major East Indian and Muslim minorities originating from Great Britain, and yet their religions are not mentioned at all among Britons worldwide. How come? British Muslims live everywhere on Earth. The same can be said about Germans with only “Roman Catholic, Protestant (chiefly Lutheran), secular, others” mentioned. How come German Turks living outside of Germany are omitted? Is there so very few of them? Not possible. Article about Austrians for example, list only Roman Catholic ca. 75 %, Protestant ca. 5 %, other or no religion (ca. 20 %). That’s it. Than again, do these nations have diasporas as big as that of ours? I would doubt that. --Poeticbent  talk  03:28, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

How about mentioning 2-3 largest religions ? I believe Orthodox and Protestant are significant for Poles, depending on the region. --Lysy^talk 08:33, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

if we said "other Christian" then it would include Orthodox, Protestant, and Jehovah's Witnesses. Together these would make up something like half a percent of the population. "secular" would include atheists and agnostics. Does anyone find any general fault with: "Predominantly Roman Catholic (+90%), with other Christian, Jewish, and secular minorities."? I really think that's a more accurate statement. JRWalko 17:32, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Good point, however, the phrase "other Christian" does not include Muslim minority (regardless of how miniute it might be). Personally I’ve never met a Polish Muslim, but please ask User:Orestek who added the link. Maybe he knows better, since he’s involved with the Polish-American church recently. --Poeticbent  talk  17:59, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Most of Poland's 30,000 Muslims are recent immigrants from the Soviet countries. They are not ethnic Poles. The only historical Polish populations that are Muslims are the Tatars who declare themselves to be Tatar not Polish (according to the last census) and are a separate ethnic group that is not a branch of Poles. Poland also has Hindu and Buddhist minorities but they are also recent immigrants and not representative of Poles as an ethnic group. JRWalko 18:12, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Why "together something like half a percent of the population" ? The Orthodox accounts for about 1.5% alone. Where did you get your data from ? --Lysy^talk 18:13, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, you're right. I just misinterpreted the number. Based on the info from www.poland.gov.pl the Orthodox Church numbers 550000 or 1.4%. The site also says that "most" of those are Belorussians not Poles. Then the Lutherans at .22%, Pentecostals at .04%, Adventists at .02%, .14% in non-Roman Catholic churches. Then you have .33% Jehovah's Witnesses and Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, and Hindu religions that aren't even given numbers. JRWalko 19:03, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Population numbers

I wasn't the one that initially put in the numbers that were removed from the template and don't know where they came from BUT the template as it is now is virtually unusable as it greatly misinforms readers as to the type and extent of the Polish diaspora. It is ridiculous that the current template implies that Brazil is the third most populous destination of Poles around the world. That is blatantly wrong and does a disservice to wikipedia. I suggest restoring the old numbers, removing the citations next to them and distinctly marking them as unsourced estimates. This way the counties can be compared in some more relative terms and the template can become useful. JRWalko 02:31, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I invite editors to discuss the above matter on the discussion page of the template in question, which can be found here -> [13]. I copied my comments from that page because the template isn't perhaps so well watched by other editors. JRWalko 02:34, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Poles in the UK

Why over 600,000 Poles or Polish Britons in the UK aren't add to the article? Kowalmistrz 12:15, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Poles in US

In the list, it says that there are 9.3 million polish descendents in the USA, but when I looked in the pdf, that was a 1990 stat. The 2000 stat says that there are now 8.9 million people in the USA claiming Polish background. Can you check that? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.152.146.236 (talk) 06:25, August 22, 2007 (UTC)

Etymology

The article lacks any information about the etymology of the word "pole(s)". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.58.27.9 (talk) 23:47, August 25, 2007 (UTC)

UK POLES

There are over 3/4 million Polish people in the UK, this would rank 4th in the list, yet they are not even mentioned here. Surely the 4th largest Polish Diaspora Group should be mentioned [14] I know some of these are recorded in the Polish Census, but as long as they are in the UK, they are Polish British. There may not be exactly 750,000 British Poles, but even if this is true, the Polish British population would be considerably higher than the majority of diasporas listed in the table. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.107.217.123 (talk) 15:41, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Do you have any verifiable sources to support what you claim? Please read WP:V. --Mathsci 19:12, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Australian source link no longer works

The link (number 13) to the Australian statistics no longer works. Can someone fix it? Davez621 18:42, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

SOURCES FOR UK POLES POPULATION

• The Boston Globe states that over 300,000 Poles have migrated to the UK after 2004 alone Official figures put the number of Poles in Britain at about 264,000; unofficially, it's believed to be much higher because not every Polish worker registers with the government
• The Polish Express Newspaper says that between 500,000 and 1 million Poles live in the UK
• U Talk Marketing claims that as many as 2 million Poles recide in the UK
• Workpermit.com claims a Polish British population of over 500,000
• Polish Website states 750,000 Polish people living in the UK —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.107.196.190 (talk) 15:59, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

number of Poles working in UK after May 2004 (EU Accession)

The article claimed 110,000 and cites this report. But the report itself lists in Table 2 on p.11 that the number was 310,000 (just add all quarters). I changed it. I also changed the wording of the credit that it gives to workers from new EU countries. It gives credit to workers from all those countries, not just from Poland. Furthermore Poles are those that claim absolutely (not per capita or per 1,000 workers) the most tax-funded income-related benefits (Table 13, p.30), even though this number is still consider by authors of the report low. 24.81.130.107 (talk) 19:24, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

What are you talking about? There's no Table 2 on p.11. However, there's a Chart 2 on pg. 8 showing the Nationality of applicants (May 2004 - September 2006). It says: "In the period 1 May 2004 to 30 September 2006, the highest proportion of applicants were Polish (63% of the total), followed by Lithuanian (11%) and Slovak (10%) applicants." Those are just applicants, all right?

And don't change the words of the report to prove your WP:POINT. The chart of pg. 30 says "Applications for Tax Credits" and not "tax-funded income-related benefits" as you falsely claim. Those are two entirely different things. "Tax credits" are given to those who earn their keep, and "benefits" to those who don't. --Poeticbent talk 20:20, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

One more time: Table 2, page 9 (that's the 11th page in the document) lists Nationality of applicants approved by quarter applied and for 2004 it lists 71 000, for 2005 127 000 and for Q1-Q3 2006 32+38+39 thousand approved applicants. Altogether 310 000. Under the table one can read: This table shows applicants approved rather than the total number of applications made. The figures are for initial applications only (not multiple applications, where an individual is doing more than one job simultaneously, or re-registration, where an individual has changed employers.

The chart on p.8 you mention show exactly the same 310000 I talk about. What's not clear?

Table 16, p.28 (that's the 30th page of the document) has title Nationality of applicants for tax-funded, Income-related benefits. That's social support. Poland makes a little over 50% of all applications. I also correctly stated it's not the most per 1000 workers.

The preambule doesn't mention Poles. It mentions workers from A8, so don't steal credit from those who got it.

Until you are able to prove what you base your 110 000 on, I'm reverting the article to my version.

24.81.130.107 (talk) 21:51, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Do you really believe that I'm going to buy this? The fact is that, if Polish nationals make over 50% of all applicants, the preamble of the British Home Office refers to them most of all. The preamble is supported by the entire document without the need for being repetitive, but obviously the credit goes to Poles. And what numbers are you adding? There's a Table on p.9 entitled "Nationality of applicants approved by quarter applied, May 2004 - September 2006". It states the following: 2004 Total (Poland): 71,020; 2005 Total (Poland): 127,310; 3 quarters of 2006 (Poland): 72% of total. You cannot be adding these numbers, unless you have no idea what you're doing or what these numbers mean. Applicants come and go, many of them apply from year to year as the same people, others go back home and are replaced by newcomers. The numbers are independent for each year. Please stop manipulating them to fit your WP:POINT. --Poeticbent talk 22:36, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Show me ONE location in the source where it mentions 110 000 registred workers and I may change my mind. So far the only thing you've done is throwing around some random number. All claims in Wikipedia must be verifiable. Prove yours. I've certainly proved mine. I'm aware that 310 000 is not a number of unique workers or number of workers working in UK at any given moment, but I can re-word the section.

Your version of the article says: Poles continue to come to the UK to work and [...] keep "contributing to the success of the UK economy ... which is not what the preambule - you self are citing - says. Don't take credit from those who were given it.

I tagged it as disputed section and I'm not taking it off until this dispute is resolved.

23:12, 18 November 2007 (UTC)