Talk:Pierre and Marie Curie University

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BetacommandBot (talk) 06:59, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Research Laboratories, and Units list

SVP please email me this list or a link to it -- en francais ok -- there are some bad "howlers" in its original format, including lots of misplaced "le"s, a normal French=>English translation problem, also a spacing problem at the right side of the page which erased data, also "Genie" does not translate to "Genius"... I'll be happy to correct the entries to English formats, but I'll need the full original to do that. Jack Kessler, kessler@well.com

Found the UPMC links, provided on the page -- some titles changed to current -- I'll add the other links.

--Kessler (talk) 18:29, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

UPMC Doctoral Schools list

Organization of these EDs is byzantine, in Paris reality -- ask any new student -- and clarification here would be valuable. The article offers links now to both "head offices" of EDs, and to UPMC labs. Seems to me both would be useful to a Wikip reader, but the difference should be specified: I'll put in a double entry for each, just the W3 URL or where unavailable an email address, i.e.

• UPMC Lab: (URL or email)
• ED Head office : (URL or email)

-- no time to complete this soon, myself, but others can -- main reference page is [1] -- altho a mere link to that last is little help to readers not a) French-fluent, and b) Paris education bureaucracy - fluent -- if Wikip can sort this out clearly it will be the first time it's ever been done... Abelard got lost in it, too... But digital info can do it, IMO, far better than printed organigrammes ever have. --Kessler (talk) 20:02, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Paris VI

What is the origin of the nickname "Paris VI"? Perhaps it is worth mention in the article. Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 22:37, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

A very fair question that links to the arguments below concerning the title of the page, i don't think it is accurate to say Paris 6 is even a nickname, I graduated from UPMC last year (2013) and my diploma is given in the name of Paris 6, nowhere does it mention the name UPMC. I will try to do some research but in the meanwhile I think a revision of the 'nickname' tag would be appropriate i.e. it is not a nickname and perhaps a subheading that explains exactly what is going on i.e. UPMC versus Paris 6. Ntshebe (talk) 18:09, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

FOUND, according to the University's Articles of Association/Charter, the legal name of the the university is 'UNIVERSITE PIERRE ET MARIE CURIE (PARIS 6)', Paris 6 is not a nickname but part of the university's legal name & identity. Certainly many Parisians still call it Paris 6 and not UPMC. The document is in French but the name is on page 8.

References

New name of university

The name of Pierre and Marie Curie University has been changed since 2010 as "UPMC-Sorbonne Universités". This has been done after creating the alliance of "Sorbonne Universités" (Please look at Sorbonne_University_(alliance)). According to this change, I suggest to modify the title of this page to avoid any confusing about the name of this university. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1241edit (talk • contribs) 15:24, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

No it's not. As you have proven on the French Wikipedia that you can't speak decently French, let's me explain. The "Sorbonne Universités" that you misinterpret as being part of the name of this university, is just a mention of its Pôle de recherche et d'enseignement supérieur membership. Just like some airline companies use the SkyTeam logo close to their own names. But you will never find this "UPMC-Sorbonne Universités" in any document. XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 06:20, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Article moved

I moved the article back to Pierre-and-Marie-Curie University, from Pierre-and-Marie-Curie University (University of Paris 6). Wikipedia article titles use parentheses to distinguish between different usages of a term (disambiguation), not to cram two synonyms into one title. Synonyms are handled by redirects, and are discussed in the article lede. Cramming synonyms into the title is neither appropriate nor useful.--Srleffler (talk) 22:02, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Since the move was reverted, I will begin a formal move request.--Srleffler (talk) 04:35, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

I notice that my move was reverted by User:Wikisah, who I suspect to be a sockpuppet of User:1241edit, who is indefinitely blocked for editing using multiple accounts. In today's article move, Wikisah used exactly the same ungrammatical edit summary as 1241edit did in April.--Srleffler (talk) 05:25, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 30 September 2014

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move the page to Pierre and Marie Curie University, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 06:00, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

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Pierre-and-Marie-Curie University (University of Paris 6) → Pierre-and-Marie-Curie University Pierre and Marie Curie University – On March 3, this article was moved from Pierre-and-Marie-Curie University to Pierre-and-Marie-Curie University (University of Paris 6), with the explanation "This new title avoids confusing about the name of this university. Because, this university known as both names: 'University of...". Since the intent was clearly to cram two synonyms into the title, I propose that the article be returned to its previous title. Wikipedia practice is to handle synonyms by using redirects, not by putting both synonyms into the title. The current title violates the "naturalness" and "conciseness" criteria for article titles, a wikipedia policy. The policy's prescription that we should use commonly recognizable names is also relevant. The policy on precision of article titles states that "titles should be precise enough to unambiguously define the topical scope of the article, but no more precise than that". Presenting two synonyms in the title clearly violates this rule. The editor who renamed the article was, perhaps, confused by the use of parentheses for disambiguation. We use parentheses to distinguish which of several distinct meanings of a title is covered in an article, not to present a synonym with the same meaning. While the editor's intent was to avoid confusion, instead the current title increases confusion by implying that there is more than one "Pierre-and-Marie-Curie University", only one of which is "University of Paris 6". The article should be restored to the simpler title, in accord with Wikipedia policy and practice. Srleffler (talk) 04:59, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• Support change. Suggest to non hyphenated: Pierre and Marie Curie University as per search "Pierre-and-Marie-Curie University". WP:UCRN and Pos. WP:OFFICIAL re https://www.facebook.com/pages/Pierre-and-Marie-Curie-University-Paris/132632410114831

Gregkaye ✍♪ 08:58, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support move to Pierre and Marie Curie University (without hyphens) or perhaps UPMC which seems to be current usage. Their website uses the acronym, with only minor references to the name in full. Secondarywaltz (talk) 18:05, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support title of Pierre-and-Marie-Curie University (University of Paris 6) and *Oppose title of Pierre-and-Marie-Curie University, because there are two reasons concerning the confusion about the name of this university :

(1) The current diploma issued by this university is entitled Université Paris VI without mention to Pierre and Marie Curie, for example you can visit this instance in this page : http://perso.tls.cena.fr/cellier/pic/diploma_master_loic.cellier.jpg

(2) The university signature for scientific journals has been changed to Sorbonne Universités, UPMC Univ Paris 06, without direct mention to Pierre-and-Marie-Curie, You can see Google Scholar results HERE. http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Sorbonne+Universit%C3%A9s+UPMC+Paris+06&btnG=&hl=en&lr=lang_en&as_sdt=0%2C5&as_ylo=2014

So, using the title of Pierre-and-Marie-Curie University cannot be clear to specify that all these names belong to the only one university and this causes confusion about this university.

Thank you for your attention

RegardsWikisah (talk) 21:52, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

None of that justifies the current title, which arbitrarily smashes together two of the multiple names for this University. Wikipedia articles are supposed to have a single title. Alternate names for the same thing are handled by using redirects. For example, the name you mentioned, Université Paris VI, is now a redirect that points to this article. (Click it and see.) There is no need to have both "Pierre-and-Marie-Curie University" and "University of Paris 6" in the article's title. Both names can and do point to a single article.--Srleffler (talk) 04:53, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

But I think the main purpose of wikipedia articles is to disambiguate, and the second one is beautification of articles. I bet most of the people (perhaps you) didn't know these two names belong to one university. I'd deal with a lot of people that didn't know this reality. So, I think this title can be very helpful to disambiguate.

RegardsWikisah (talk) 15:27, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

You are mistaken. Disambiguation is used when a single term has multiple meanings, not when there are multiple names for the same thing. Synonyms are adequately handled in the lead paragraph and through redirects. Putting multiple synonyms in the title achieves nothing and may make the article harder to find and link to.--Srleffler (talk) 05:03, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Please consider the Google search key words. A lot of people use the key word of "University of Paris 6" to find and discover this university. So, when the results found (i.e. the title of article) will be matched with the key word used by a searcher, can be very helpful for a searcher. RegardsWikisah (talk) 19:27, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Don't you understand that University of Paris 6 redirects here? Secondarywaltz (talk) 20:21, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Wikisah, that is irrelevant. All names for the school redirect to one article. That's how Wikipedia works. Searching for "University of Paris 6" brings one to this article, regardless of the article's title.--Srleffler (talk) 02:41, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Please pay attention that in case of changing the title without mention to "University of Paris 6", it's not possible to see the key word of "University of Paris 6" in page of the results found by google search engine. Thank you for your understand. Regards Wikisah (talk) 21:12, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

It's not our job to "fix" google search results so that a particular phrase appears in them. The fact that you can't see the phrase "University of Paris 6" in the Google results, including the entry for the university's own website ought to tell you that what you are trying to do is wrong.--Srleffler (talk) 02:41, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

But, by improving the title, it will be possible to make easier discovering the university for searchers. Concerning the university website, as I said previously, this university issues all of diplomas by title of "University of Paris 6", although in the university website is different. My attempt is to improve this obscurity. Thank you for your collaboration. Regards Wikisah (talk) 20:08, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

But it already is easy. I just searched for "University of Paris 6" on Google and this article comes up just fine. This will continue to be true in the future after it is moved back. SnowFire (talk) 21:29, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

• Strong support, we don't use double titles. I have no opinion on hyphens vs. non-hyphens, but would weakly suggest no hyphens from browsing their website a bit. SnowFire (talk) 21:29, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

It's totally clear that one opinion is written by two-three persons and it's really Funny! Goodluck! I don't know what's really your purpose. improving wikipedia articles? I hope, but don't think.Wikisah (talk) 22:27, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

It is quite sad that you don't seem to understand what is being explained to you. I don't know whether it is a language problem or that you don't know Wiki. Secondarywaltz (talk) 23:02, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

Wikisah has been blocked for using a sockpuppet account to evade a block. As a blocked user, his move of the article was invalid and could be reverted immediately. Since we have this move discussion going on, and since we seem to have consensus on the no-hyphens version of the name, I've adjusted the proposal to the no-hyphens version. At this point, we might as well let this discussion continue for a few days and then close normally.--Srleffler (talk) 21:11, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Name of the University

Not to flog a dead horse but I have posted a link to the University's Articles of Association which clearly state the University's legal name is 'Pierre Marie Curie University (Paris 6). Leaving the above issue of the move alone, this does mean that the appellation of Paris 6 as a nickname is false, it is a part of the University's name and identity. Several other items add weight to this:

• The University awards degrees in the name of Paris 6 and not UPMC
• In documents on the french ministry of education's site, the university is referred to as UPMC Paris 6
• The name Paris 6 is as widely used in day to day use in Paris as UPMC is even though the website seems to make almost no mention of it

As an anglophone this is a confusing state of affairs but methinks Wikipedia referring to Paris 6 as a nickname does nothing to serve exactitude. Your thoughts? The same issue is raised on the French page of Paris Sud's wiki as well. Ntshebe (talk) 22:16, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ntshebe (talk • contribs) 22:13, 8 December 2014 (UTC) 

References

External links modified

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Orphaned references in Pierre and Marie Curie University

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Pierre and Marie Curie University's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "aeres":

• From Paris-Sorbonne University: "Rapport d'évaluation de l'Université Paris-Sorbonne — Paris IV" (PDF). Agence d'évaluation de la recherche et de l'enseignement supérieur. November 2009. p. 7.
• From Conservatoire national des arts et métiers: Rapport d'évaluation du Conservatoire national des arts et métiers (Cnam) par l'Aeres, 11/2013 p.5 (p.6 du PDF)

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 18:46, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

 UPMC is the name since 2007

@Robminchin UPMC is the official name since 2007, but UPMC is a disambiguation page. What to do? --Launebee (talk) 14:24, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

It's not necessary for a page title to follow the official name. The policy on page titles (WP:TITLES) says to use the common name for the subject of the article, also stating "Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources." (WP:COMMONNAME) I would take this to mean that if there is an alternative, non-ambiguous name we should probably use it instead unless there is a really good reason not to. There's also an essay on official names, and why Wikipedia doesn't always use them, at WP:OFFICIAL.

It seems likely that "Pierre and Marie Curie University" is the most common, non-ambiguous name for the institution. It's used, for instance, in the Reuters table of innovative universities,[2] while the QS ranking uses "Université Pierre et Marie Curie (UPMC)"[3]. Further, looking at their Mentions légales page they identify themselves as "UPMC - Université Pierre et Marie Curie - Paris 6". As the most common, non-ambiguous name for the institute, this should probably remain the page title. Robminchin (talk) 19:32, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

Ok, thanks! --Launebee (talk) 21:12, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071025211316/http://pcmp.snv.jussieu.fr/ to http://pcmp.snv.jussieu.fr/
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