Talk:Philippine Hokkien/Archive 1

Archive 1

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Hmmm, very interesting. More than half of my classmates in La Salle in ECE spoke in Chinese (Lan-nang?). I sometimes could pick up a few words. Is there class tommorrow?(Said in tagalog-May pasok bukas?) - Boowa(none). Le bi ki to loh? (Where are are you going?) After an exam, about the results they would say things like: chige chige, pyause! (This, this and this , shit!)--Jondel 06:15, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

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58.69.0.49 09:40, 20 March 2006 (UTC)Kahit English naman... Philippine English is different from American English, regarding this entry it is better to use the term Philippine Hokkien, in Taiwan they call their as 台語 (Tai yu or Tai Gui) in Pennang they call Pennang Hokkien. May that better. Lang-nang-oe we only reffer to this because its our language. But if we are talking with other, we use Hokkien Oe / Fujian hua (福建話) or its other names. Jameson Ong 58.69.0.49 09:40, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Phonetics

To an average English speaker, it could look something like this simplified system

which I’d think is OR.

there seems to be no standard form for romanisation for the Philippine variant

The “standard form for romanisation” is POJ, no? If someone can come up with a reason that won’t work for Philippine Hokkien, fine, but AFAIK, it should suffice for most South Min variants. I don’t know Pe̍h-ōe-jī, but if someone could make sure this article complies, that’d be great. —Wiki Wikardo 10:34, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

The concept of "soap"

Although, I must agree that 雪文 is a modern borrowing dating back from the colonial times, I must disagree that both the Chinese and Filipinos did not have anything similar to soap to clean themselves, having been blessed with rich natural resources. I once encountered the term, 茶箍 and found out it was a cleaning material, similar to soap, made out of discarded tea leaves. It is a huge round compressed material and saw a picture of it from a Taiwanese site. The term itself is used to translate 'soap' by some Hoklo people; though, 雪文 is more accurate since soap contains lye and many inedible material (chemicals, in short). Pretty resourceful if you asked me. Wasn't it also the Chinese who used orange peelings (陳皮) for culinary purposes? Also, in northern China, traditionally, they used animal 胰腺 to make soap in the older times. Hence, the term 胰子. 肥皂 was the other term (the more modern translation of 'soap') and the most commonly used translation in Mandarin. 皂 itself means soap or servant. Other terms for soap: 胰皂. Related terms: 碱(alkali), 碱水(lye water), 梘水 (lihiya/ lye water, the one suitable for cooking, not derived from soap or any industrial chemicals). That's why soap in Japanese is 石鹸 because 鹸 is the Japanese shortcut for 鹼(lye); which in turn is a character variation for 碱(lye).Ugar001 (talk) 16:06, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

O — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.108.216.225 (talk) 16:10, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Iowasboon claims

@Iowasboon: Please cite reliable sources for information that you are adding, per the no original research policy. For instance, the claim "Most to this [sic] say also don't even know that Fuzhou is the capital of Fujian." Please discuss here to avoid edit warring. — MarkH21 (talk) 03:33, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

Nan-nang?

Here in the Philippines, I heard people pronouncing Lan-nang/Lan-lang as Nan-nang. Is this a valid variation or corruption? I heard at least 3 person using this variation.

Anyone in the Philippines who know the answer?

Hiong-eng 05:18, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I’m not in the Philippines, but hopefully some insight will be provided knowing that Cantonese is undergoing the opposite shift—nei ho ma (你好嗎) is increasingly being pronounced as lei ho ma.

And remember “valid” only becomes so after enough people use what used to be a “corruption.” ;) —Wiki Wikardo 10:34, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually, this is because there is no one controlling the speaking of Lan-nang. What I mean is children only copy what they hear from their parents, and their children copy from them. If they hear it incorrectly, then what you pass down to the next generation is wrong, so that's how the variation started. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mar vin kaiser (talk • contribs) 15:25, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

I believe the frequent use of "Nan-nang" from Lan-nang is something more frequently observed to be heard from Hokkien speakers from Cebu, or at least I've seen with online commenters in different platforms from Cebu and as I've asked with Chinese Filipino friends from Cebu. I'm not sure though if other Chinese Filipinos of different provinces exhibit this too.--Mlgc1998 (talk) 16:43, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

use of "Lan-nang" as name of a language is entirely wrong

Lan-nang means "our own people" or simply "compatriot", we Filipino-Chinese (Tsinoys) use "Lan-nang" to call ourselves. Thus, lan-nang oue means "our own dialect". The said "Lan-nang oue" is the just same as Min Nan dialect or Fujian dialect, to be precised, amoy (Xiamen) dialect. This dialect is same line as dialects spoken in southern China, that inclued Xiamen, Quanzhou, Nanan, Huian, Shishi, Jin Jiang, Taiwan etc, which most of the ancestors of Filipino-Chinese came from. The correct usage for Chinese-Filipino language is Min Nan Hua or Fujian Hua. Although, due to rapid integration of Chinese into mainstream society, the Tsinoys developed some new words, with combination of original Min Nan dialect and some local Tagalog words, and even Spanish words. Typical example is Kanto-kak, kanto means corner in Spanish/Tagalog, kak is the same meaning in Min Nan dialect, but Filipino-Chinese combined the both. Another is Tansan-Kua, Tansan is bottle crown in Tagalog, Kua means cover in Chinese. Another is Bote-kan, Bote is bottle for Tagalog, Kan is Min Nan dialect for bottle. Filipino-Chinese also invented some phrase which is not used in Fujian, China, one typical example is "Pia", which means policeman, no one knew how this evolves, not even social anthropologists and linguists, no one in Chinese community knew when it started or who invented it. Another is "Chia Tao", means head of a car or simply driver. This puzzled the new immigrants from China, which they find it weird to hear it the first time, but as time goes by, they are used to it.

Wesley Chua, Editor, Chinese Commercial News, Manila, Philippines

Of course it is "the same" (in the same that British and American English are the same). But you've cleared shown it is also different in some crucial aspects. A-giau 10:49, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

So this is where I found it. I've been looking in different forums about the dialect and I finally found it. I checked an old dictionary of the Amoy dialect and saw that police is somewhat like, po-iah (捕役), I think? Maybe the Philippine Hokkien word is a contraction of this word or a corruption. The word exists and it is some sort of an old police force in ancient China. The term is very dated and predates the modern term, 警察(keng-chhat). another word I saw was 查街 (chha-koe), I think. Depending where you are, police is translated as the following: 警察(the most common; also used in Japan), 公安, 差人, etc. Older, dated terms include: 快手 and 捕快. Such a long time, I doubt anyone would see my post for a very long time. But I'm hoping someone will. Doesn't chia-tau mean stop/ station (for public transportation) among Taiwanese?? I really don't know. Read from somewhere. Just confirming. Ugar001 (talk) 14:35, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

A bit off topic, but I saw a word in the Fuzhou dialect. It is (依奶) for mother. In Malaysia, grandmother is a-ma borrowed from Hokkien (阿嬷). In Taiwan, the aboriginal word for father, ama, appears in some Taiwanese publications in Mandarin, but I can't seem to find the article about it anymore. It's been a long time. Ugar001 (talk) 15:37, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

In Philippine Hokkien/Lan-nang, a-ma is also the word for your paternal grandmother. The formal native Tagalog term though for father is ama as well, same with the aboriginal Taiwanese term you mean.--Mlgc1998 (talk) 16:49, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

My only contact with this language was about a decade ago, meeting an older lady from the Philippines who spoke Lan-nang and went to my Taiwanese-speaking Presbyterian church in Temple City, California. I recall that she was totally intelligible to a Taiwanese speaker like me, except she referred to ‘us’ using the term lán-lâng (lán-nâng) where I would have said simply lán. – Kaihsu (talk) 14:35, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Chinese Character

How do you write Lan-nang in Chinese character? 203.76.212.153 05:56, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

The Taiwanese would write 咱人 or 咱儂. The former is intuitive to Mandarin and some other Sinitic speakers but are arguably merely semantic borrowings. 儂 is arguably more correct but many speakers find it unfamiliar. Note that the n in "nang" reflects nasalization by the "n" in "lan". A-giau 10:53, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

It is possible to represent a significant amount of words in other Chinese dialects in characters. But to what extent? If a word is absent in the written language, do people create their own character or are they only used in the spoken language? Here in the Philippines, do ethnic Chinese write their dialect in Hanzi or only Mandarin? Is it like in Taiwan, where there is such a thing as written Hokkien? Because from what I understand, since ancient times, people from East Asia share the history of using Literary Chinese to communicate through writing which is totally different from their vernacular. Ugar001 (talk) 14:47, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Most Chinese Filipinos don't often write the Philippine Hokkien dialect at all. Newspapers and banners in social events though write them in traditional chinese. It's mostly a spoken vernacular though, so many do not know how to write it in chinese characters nor in any latin script like in POJ or Tai-lo but bibles and dictionaries tend to write them in POJ. Nowadays, there has been a recent trend over social media like Facebook where young Chinese Filipinos have been using the latin script to spell out philippine hokkien phrases in filipino orthography as they know it since most chinese filipino youth do not know anything about POJ or Tai-lo.--Mlgc1998 (talk) 16:58, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

Name

Lang-nang-oe we only reffer to this because its our language. But if we are talking with other, we use Hokkien Oe / Fujian hua (福建話) or its other names.

What other names are these?

The correct usage for Chinese-Filipino language is Min Nan Hua or Fujian Hua.

Just as the correct name for our language is “English,” even if we’re not of British descent. But one can also specify “American English” or “Philippine English.”

The real question is what people call this language when speaking English. I can’t find any references to “Lan-nang” as a language in English that don’t seem to be from Wikipedia, either copied + pasted or information recounted directly from here. The Philippines-related “Lan-nang” I can find on Google seem to be Tsinoys talking about other Philippine Chinese people, but not the language. —Wiki Wikardo 10:34, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

The language itself is often referred to as "Fukien" or "Fookien" or sometimes rarely "Fukienese" or "Fujianese" in English and Filipino. These days people have been corrected to use "Hokkien" as the proper term but there are still people out there who still know it as "Fukien" or "Fookien". This term is from an old postal map romanization of the name of Fujian province, since the language was always labelled something like Chinese(Fukien).--Mlgc1998 (talk) 17:02, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

Fookien/Fukien

In the Min Nan Page, one name for Min Nan is Fookien/Fukien, but in the Philippines, the Chinese are either called Mandarin, while the other one is Fukien/Fookien. One guy told me, "Do you know Chinese?" and I said yes then he said fookien/fukien/Philippine Hokkien words and my school said it is Fukien/Fookien and most of the people there know that dialect. I think Fukien/Fookien means Filipino Hokkien or similar. Does this mean Philippine Hokkien is also called Fookien/Fukien? P.S. The reason why I keep saying Fookien/Fukien is because I don't know how to spell it, but the pronunciation is Foo/Fu-ki-yen. Taposa1 (talk) 08:11, 16 April 2013 (UTC) Nevermind. I just saw it, but does Fukien mean Filipino Hokkien? Taposa1 (talk) 08:12, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

That is like asking does 'English' mean Australian English? I believe for example, many Taiwanese natively speak Fookien or "Taiwanese" is a dialect of Fookien.( Of course they will use Mandarin in School.)

Fookien refers to the Min Nan dialect spoken in Fujian province.--Jondel (talk) 12:42, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Fookien/Fukien is another variant name of Hokkien. The word itself is from Hakka which was heard centuries before and used for postal map romanization. Fookien/Fukien was always the term that people referred to Philippine Hokkien decades ago when speaking English, Tagalog, and Taglish. It has been corrected in the past years to Hokkien as the more proper term since it was heard from Taiwanese, Singaporean, Malaysian Hokkien speakers that this is the Hokkien name itself. People followed suit, but it is still present in the popular mind of many Chinese Filipinos who don't know much about the subject.--Mlgc1998 (talk) 17:09, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

30% are Native English speakers?

Over 30% of Chinese Filipinos speak English as their first language? How? Why?

English is the language of instruction in most if not all schools in the Philippines. It's the language of commerce, government, and academe in contemporary Philippine society, thus it's been seen with high regard as a language in the past century. Most Filipinos are usually taught English as soon as they start school life, Chinese Filipinos included, thus many Chinese Filipinos, especially those in the upper class speak English as their preferred first language. Although many also have no problem with Filipino or other provincial languages, but there's a good many who prefer English first though especially in upper class schools. These guys are colloquially called Inglishero in Filipino/Tagalog.--Mlgc1998 (talk) 17:18, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

Di/u- Orthographical Perception

There seems to be a certain unspoken widespread vernacular perception within Philippine Hokkien speakers of the Chinese Filipino community wherein words that start with "L", compared to other Hokkien dialects, and the first vowel thereafter is "i" or "u", the "L" is more prominently spelled with a "D" because Philippine Hokkien speakers more generally find the sound to sound more like a hard D sound, despite the actual sound to be more like a voiced alveolar flap, than a voiced alveolar stop. Examples of this include Dí (你 / 汝) instead of Lí, or dī (二) instead of lī, or "dim" (啉) instead of "lim", or "diáu" (了) instead of "liáu", or "si-di̍t" (生日) instead of "si-li̍t", or "díng-khì" (冷氣) instead of "líng-khì", etc. This phenomenon seems to have persisted for decades even from the 20th century or even as early as the late 19th century as romanized Chinese Filipino family names have adopted the practice with family names like "Dy" (李), "Dizon" (二孫), "Dyson" (李孫), "Diokno", "Dee" (李), "Dijamco", "Deang" (鄧), etc. This phenomenon might stem from old colloquial perceptions in the Jinjiang dialect of Quanzhou Hokkien, that may still be observed as lingering in old Quanzhou Hokkien songs. I've been following this strange phenomenon for years and asking linguists in Quora and Wiktionary about this, even Chinese Filipino users way back in 2004 in old Chinese language forums have been talking about it, but still it remains an unspoken rule that no one wants to document or research. The linguists I've talked to in Quora says that this phenomenon is also found in rare old Quanzhou country songs. Certain users here in wikipedia and wiktionary refuse to let me document this, just because there are no sources, but that's because it's been such a normalized unspoken rule, the Chinese Filipino community itself sees very very little interaction with outside Hokkien groups who don't do it, the dialect itself is vaguely researched at best so, of course, there wouldn't be much sources for this. I guess at least all I can do is invite the rare linguist or enthusiast to look more into this and actually make a real research paper out of this phenomenon, if this is ever found some years later.--Mlgc1998 (talk) 17:34, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

I hope I didn’t discourage you, because I did find the section to be interesting. However, any such perception still needs to have a source. If it’s an “unspoken” rule that’s truly common, then there should exist reliable publication of some kind on the matter (not necessarily linguistics papers, but a newspaper article or something similar would also suffice). If one could find a reliable source on this, then I’m all for it. — MarkH21 (talk) 03:45, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, it's just one of those things that keeps bugging me in my sleep once in a while for the past couple of years when I first started noticing it's prevalence. There's a lot of poorly documented, unresearched and unsourced matters in Philippine articles mainly because old recorded data is hard to find since the only places that might have them are university libraries that might not have online databases, or ones that do have it hard to easily access their data which means one needs to personally physically rummage through every library which universities don't all allow public entry so people willing to contribute to places like wikipedia don't have much incentive to do it. The dialect itself is spoken only by a meager minority and its unpopular at best to the modern Chinese Filipino youth who mostly sees it as old and uncool, on top of that, chinese schools mostly now teach Mandarin only these days and any sense of further research on Hokkien matters goes mostly to more popular international prestige dialects like the Amoy dialect, Quanzhou, and Zhangzhou dialect. The common Chinese Filipino rather prefers English or Filipino/Tagalog and would rather forget the existence of this dialect. I'm surprised this article even has the certain length it does, compared to the Hokkien wikipedia pages present in Malaysia and Indonesia like South Peninsular Malaysian Hokkien and Medan Hokkien. Despite the centuries of existence of Hokkien in this country, only few studies are ever made every so century by the rare enthusiast so its evolution goes largely unmonitored and is seen as exotic by other countries with more prominent Hokkien communities like Taiwan, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia where the evolution seems to have some sort of continuum I'm mildly sensing on the map that our dialect here seems to mildly bridge since speakers from Taiwan think we sound like those from Singapore and those from Singapore think we sound funny like those from Taiwan. This D consonant change is one such factor that seems to have invisibly inserted itself in the community for decades that Quanzhou speakers seem to have corrected themselves with and all other speakers from neighboring countries don't seem to do. Chinese linguists I've talked to pass it off as not worth recording as a real D because it seems to be more like a voiced alveolar flap, which in POJ is reserved to an L and D is thought more as like it were T in the chinese pinyin educated mind, but in reality, people here say it like it were between L and D, but increasingly more say it like it was a hard D here, so spell it that way but philippine hokkien itself is hardly ever written since its mostly a spoken vernacular. To me, I think this is a situation of the orthography one is familiar with, which the Chinese Filipino tends to think in Filipino orthography whereas more chinese-oriented people from Taiwan, Mainland China, Singapore, Malaysia would not think of spelling it that way. It's mostly such a natural unspoken matter, since the dialect is rarely written, that I can't imagine if someone has researched this before in some university archive somewhere and don't see how and where I can start to find keywords to any news articles or academic papers that specifically talk about this tendency. If I was a researcher, I could try writing about these findings myself, but I'm no professional linguist or researcher. I just know I've told a guy from Hong kong in Quora months ago here, who might be one, about it and he thinks Quanzhou speakers might've used to do it before, as evidenced by some old songs there. He seems to be referencing several chinese sources that several scholars have supposedly noted, but it's all in chinese and I'm no professional. I just know the people here, like my parents, cousins, and people my friends have asked, proactively do it. When I ask them specifically about it, I just get confused stares.--Mlgc1998 (talk) 10:52, 18 June 2019 (UTC)