Talk:Philip Dewinter

Picture

It would probably be good to find a better picture of him.--Carabinieri 17:38, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Sources

1. About the SS oath by Filip Dewinter, this was published after the visit paid by Filip Dewinter on December 1, 2001 at the Sint-Maertensfonds, the association of Flemish SS veterans, in their newsletter "Berkenkruis". I have seen people dismiss this source as unreliable, but then what on earth was Dewinter doing at the meeting of an association that is so thrilled about having a political leader utter that oath? I have also not read anywhere any sort of denegation by Dewinter on the matter. Dewinter could have percetly intervened, since the graphist employed by Berkenkruis is the same one as the VB's graphist, hence the striking similarities between the Flemish Lion of the Sint-Maerten's fonds and the VB. This said, I am willing to concede that we say "according to Berkenkruis" before we mention the infamous oath.

2. In terms of praise for Staf De Clercq, there was a whole delegation of VB people - including Filip Dewinter - at the Yser wake in August 2004, who laid down a wreath of flowers during a ceremony in his honor. The VB Magazine, the newsletter of the VB youth , placed a full-page advertising for the infamous commemoration ceremony that took place in Gooik on Sept. 19, 2004. It is true that VB party leaders had been careful not to be seen that time because of a party convention in Burgundy. But this did not prevent Mr. Dewinter to hail De Clercq as one of the party founders in his recent interview with Ha'aretz.

3. But if this is not enough, what do you think of the declaration by Mr. Dewinter that the list of people he admires most comprises (among other Nazi collaborators), the black priest-poet Cyriel Verschaeve. Do I need to find back some of the nice comments he made regarding Jews before and during the war? Or to the interview full of praise he made of Nazi-collaborator Bert van Boghout in VB magazine in March 1990?

1. The thing is you'd want a 3rd party source for this kind of information (like a link to a newspaper clipping of some sorts).

I found that one back in Blokwatch, after having first heard of it on RTBf. I am quite confident that those two organizations must have been careful to get a copy of Berkenkruis to avoid being in the position of being accused of libel. If you really need this to be convinced, I'm willing to e-mail them so they send me a copy. Please notice I used a conditional here. Benbel 17:18, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

[1] is I guess to which you refer. No other (impartial) media have reported on this (the Dewinter speech) however. Whether or not this was included in magazine Berkenkruis becomes therefore is irrelevant (Berkenkruis itself is a biased medium).

As I said, RTBf did report on it as well. Now, if you say this is also a biased medium, then who will you be left with? As I said, it is not credible that Blokwatch and RTBf would have taken the risk of libel when they state something about the VB. Everything they do or say is triple- and quardupled checked about the VB. Too much of their credibility would be at stake. I have seen many criticisms of Blokwatch, saying for instance they are liars. The only evidence I was ever presented was an article where additional points may have been mentioned, which points, on closer analysis, would not have changed much to the conclusions a normal reader would have taken. Making a choice as to how you present a story hardly counts as a lie. Otherwise, how should VB be qualified? As to Berkenkruis, it surely is a biased medium to treat with caution, but in this case, it has close links with Mr. Dewinter and it is hard for me to imagine they would have wanted to hurt him... Benbel 20:29, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I thought the RTBf has only showed a documentary about Dewinter's election campaign? Note that flemish minister Johan Sauwens had to step down after attending a sint-maartensfonds meeting earlier that year. Wouldnt that have warned Dewinter then?

You are referring to "Vlaamse Choc!", but there was another documentary about the Vlaams Belang before the Regional elections in 2004. Mr. Dewinter's association with the Sint-Maertensfonds, including the famous oath, was mentioned in it. Since Mr. Sauwens's resignation, Mr. Dewinter has been a bit more careful in terms of where he shows up and what he says. Of course, only he knows if he truly changed his mind or if it's just tactics. Nevertheless, it is clearly a part of his quite recent past, and he keeps honoring such figures as Staf De Clercq, Irma Laplasse et al. So I'm a bit doubtful about a conversion.

Can you find the name of that doc? About the other position about 'praising' those people, i am more inclined to include the full quote on that from the interview [2]. Intangible 20:21, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

2. Dewinter put it more nuanced then that in the interview. [3]

Like any politician, Mr. Dewinter brings a different nuance to his message depending on his audience. The way in which the article is worded says clearly Mr. Dewinter distances himself publicly from Nazi collaboration. It does not take away that he has repeatedly praised such collaborators, including many who were ferocious anti-semites. This doesn't necessarily mean he wholeheartedly agrees with what they did, but at least that their common nationalist "ideal" counts more in his eyes than the horrors they have said or done. Other Flemish nationalists, e.g., Spirit, manage to make a disctinction. Benbel 17:18, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

But to describe this in this article would be very hard. For starters you need to explain the differences between the Activists during WWI and the Passivists and the Front Movement. Otherwise the article will easily turn into a guilty by association manifesto.

Any explanation around the theme "Yes, they collaborated (and sometimes fought) with the Nazi's and were ferocious antisemites, but in fact, they really were naive idealists fighting for their oppressed people and not such bad guys overall" poses indeed a credibility challenge, in my humble opinion. But I invite you to insert something along those lines if you think this could sway the impression given to some readers. Just don't state it as a fact, but as a largely-held opinion amongst Flemish nationalist movements. You could elaborate on it in an other, linked, article - but I'm afraid this may not yield the result you may hope for this. Benbel 20:29, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Would Dewinter 'praise' them for being Nazi collaborators? No of course not. These were the same activist nationalists who during the first world war tried to dutchify Ghent University for example or wanted to 'unfrench' the lawbooks using the powers of the German occupier. The passivists of course would have none of that. Without going into the question of good or bad, they both belong to the same nationalist movement. That is what Dewinter is pointing out I think, without making any value judgements on their actions.
I am not sure about Cyriel Verschaeve being an anti-semite (unless being catholic is enough?!), he was a collaborator in wwii though. Where is this based on? (i cannot find Het uur van vlaanderen anywhere).

Mr. Dewinter was talking about Staf De Clercq, or Irma Laplasse, whose role is clearly more important during WWII. I will check sources on Verschaeve's antisemitism (I have the De Clercq ones readily available if you want), but the fact that he incited thousands of young Flemings to meet a dishonorable gruesome death in Russia is something you won't contest, right? You cannot overlook those facts when you say somebody is a role-model for you, then you think those facts are less important than others. Let the Wikipedia readers judge by themselves... If you're afraid reading the facts would induce certain judgements, don't blame the facts. Benbel 00:33, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

3. Nobody denies that some Dietsers were Nazi collaborators during the 2nd World War, the question is if this is relevant to the current article. Intangible 10:29, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

The fact that Mr. Dewinter is full of praise for them is relevant. Benbel 17:18, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

See (2.) Intangible 06:46, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

As I said, feel free to bring facts that could counterbalance the bizarre impression that Mr. Dewinter's attitude towards a certain past may generate. But I wouldn't agree that this is an irrelevant characteristic of Mr. Dewinter's political engagement which is best overlooked. Benbel 20:29, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Overlooking the history of flemish nationalism is easily done however. There are many subtle shadings and qualities in describing the actions of its representatives. Intangible 15:23, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Again, I'm not against saying that they were motivated by an "ideal" of Flemish nationalism (not shared by the overwhelming majority of the Flemish population in those times), but all the names quoted by Mr. Dewinter were pretty hard-core collaborators and antisemites. Had he only given names of people who expressed regrets after the war... Benbel 00:33, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

By the way, I appreciate you take the time to discuss this in a civil manner without wageing an editing war. I wish some other people I am arguing with on related matters had that attitude as well. Benbel 20:35, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the Berkenkruis reference, and updated the other one with the response Filip Dewinter made in the paper Haaretz. Intangible 19:42, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Flemish Activist

Hello, I noticed you put Filip Dewinter in the category "Flemish activists". That's quite an assertion ! Do you have any reputable sources to substantiate this ? Thanks.--LucVerhelst 20:25, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Calling Dewinter a Flemish activist was based, in part, upon his youthful actions: "In 1978, as a 16-year old, he founded the Flemish Student Action Group (Vlaamse Studenten Actie Groep)." Activist is not the same as terrorist. You said "That's quite an assertion !" I am not sure what you mean. Activists can be liberal or conservative. But I am not sure that I have ever seen a middle-of-the-road activist. Bejnar 20:58, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

"Flemish activist" is quite an honorary title in Flanders. As such, it is very POV. Bestowing such a title to a controversial political figure as Filip Dewinter is seen as taking sides for the far right Vlaams Belang, and against the democratic part of the Flemish movement. Do you have sources ? --LucVerhelst 21:05, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I used activist to describe political activity directed towards Flemish nationalism. If you choose to see activist as a POV word, I cannot help you. Some people, who are not necessarily Flemish, see all separatist movements as inhumane. For them, Flemist activist probably implies a negative connotation. Do you deny that Dewinter founded, or help found, the Vlaamse Studenten Actie Groep? Bejnar 21:33, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't know whether he did. It is not relevant, I think. Do you have sources that call Dewinter a Flemish Activist, or is it just your opinion ? In the latter case, putting that cat there is original research.

Or are you going to put everybody in this category that has had "political activity directed towards Flemish nationalism" ? In that case, you should at least add someone like Wilfried Martens... --LucVerhelst 21:42, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

If you cannot see that creation of a student group whose name could be translated into English as the Flemish Student Activist Group is a relevant act by Dewinter, then I cannot help you. As to Wilfried Martens he has not such record in his past that I was able to find. As to putting everybody into the category, the answer is no, unless they clearly belong there on an objective basis. Aside, the process of categorization based on verified record is not original research. List of original research Bejnar 22:05, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

You could as well argue that PD has done a lot to damage the struggle for Flemish independence. He and his party have always been one of the main arguments for the francophones to block further federalisation in Belgium.

As for Wilfried Martens : he was the prime minister that reformed Belgium from a centralised into a federal (nearly confederal) state. It's thanks to him that Flanders has the amount of independance it has today. --LucVerhelst 07:14, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

You might look at the use of the phrase Flemish activist in Children of of the repression Dutch Organisation of children Belgie Bejnar 22:34, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

That text equates "Flemish activist" with "Collaborator with the Germans". That's kind of POV too, isn't it. (Although I must admit that generally, PD is believed to be on that side of the political spectrum.) --LucVerhelst 07:14, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

That article, and a number of others about both WWI and WWII use the term "Flemish activist", but they do not necessarily equate them with collaborator. Reading carefully, the articles distinguish between those Flemish activists who did collaborate and those who didn't. Bejnar 17:41, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Far right

This article does not deals about the far right history of Dewinter. He can not so easy be called an conservative

I would like to understand the reason why the edits linking Filip Dewinter to extreme-right circles are systematically deleted. Are they deemed not relevant or inaacurate? Please comment.--85.27.14.44 00:06, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Answer: the Vlaams Belang has origins in the far right and has still a strong support of far right groups. Nowadays the Vlaams Belang tries to ditch these links to attract a larger group of supporters but is still far from home to be called a "conservative" party. For example, if you had to compare the Vlaams Belang with a English party it would not be the conservatives (not now or in the old days) but UKIP or Veritas. So, unless we can think out a comprimise, I will not accept that the Vlaams Belang is called a conservative party without any additional and necessary remarks.

Talk: Dewinter has bounds with far right and wants to take on a more moderate stance. (or are it some other party members?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.118.164.129 (talk • contribs)

The party is not "far right." It is conservative because of the moral catholics. Intangible 20:07, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Care to provide a reference for that assertion ?--LucVerhelst 20:12, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Then you have to write that it is conservative on moral questions. Conservatism as an political ideology is much larger then just moral questions. I do not want to condemn Vlaams Belang but there are a large amount of people (you can not ignore them) that state that VLaams Belang or Dewinter are far right. May be you do not agree but then at least we have to show the two opposing views in a dictionary. Wiki is not meant to show only one point of view.Portalis 00:O3, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

But one is not painting a picture of the party here, that can be done in the Vlaams Belang article. This article is about Filip Dewinter as a person. It is not necessary that Vlaams Belang adheres to every 'conservative' philosophy out there. Intangible 00:10, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but then you have to show that Dewinter does not support every conservative philosphy that is around the place. So, I have changed the conservative to moral conservative. You can change to everthing you want, if it only refers to the morals. Portalis 12:02, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I've removed it, the conservativeness of the VB is not particularly important for this article. Intangible 17:16, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

npov tag

I've removed the tag. The text currently is NPOV. Intangible 00:00, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

pov-sect

I added a pov-sect tag because it's POV to display first-party sources only. Punkmorten 12:20, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

There is nothing POV about quoting Dewinter in his own article at Wikipedia. Intangible 15:54, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

When the only references are first-party sources, this is imbalanced and thus POV. Punkmorten 12:08, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

They were printed in newspapers as well. Thus certainly public. Intangible 13:03, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Prove it. By the way, I replaced the tag with {{primarysources}}. Punkmorten 14:24, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Philip vs Filip

In all fairness, I think Mr. Dewinter's christian name should be "Filip" and not "Philip". "Philip" may be the official form, but if Mr. Dewinter chooses to write his christian name as "Filip" there is not much one can do about it. After all, we also speak about "Bart Somers", "Jaak Gabriels", "Annemie Neyts", "Pim Fortuyn", and "Bill Clinton" despite the fact that their official names are "Bartolomeus Somers", "Jacobus Gabriels", "Anne-Marie Neyts", "Wilhelmus Fortuijn", and "William Clinton". Ivo von Rosenqvist -Preceding unsigned comment added by Ivo von Rosenqvist (talk • contribs) 11:21, August 30, 2007 (UTC)

Either way the talk page and the article should match up.--T. Anthony 03:09, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Islamophobia category

It has not been deleted yet and although I'm loathe to put it on articles of living people he is noted as one who discusses the term. See Islamophobia#Alleged acts of Islamophobia.--T. Anthony 02:59, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

I put him in the new category due to his relevance to the issue. See Flemish Republic article and the Wikipedia article I linked to. It's true that this should be restricted on people per BLP but

1. The category at base is not meant to suggest the subject is Islamophobic as half of what's in it are civil rights groups.
2. People I added who simply self-describe as Islamophobic, but who were not significant to the topic, were removed and rightly so.
3. The category is for people and organizations significant to the subject. As a political figure of some importance his opinions on the topic would be relevant in a way the opinions of actresses or singers would not be.
4. As mentioned his opinions on the subject are part of his notability or significance.

If you wish the category to be re-deleted that's a different discussion. Thank you.--T. Anthony (talk) 03:15, 17 December 2007 (UTC)