Talk:Peter Fraser

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Requested move 21 December 2017

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved as proposed. bd2412 T 01:52, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

Peter Fraser (New Zealand politician) → Peter Fraser – He was a national leader during World War II and is certainly the most notable figure with this name. This article received 1,515 views over the last 30 days, which is nearly twice as many as all other namesake articles combined [1]. Hazhk (talk) 21:20, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

• Support per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Ralbegen (talk) 21:49, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
• Support per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Page views say it all. The New Zealand Prime Minister has more long-term significance than the other subjects with the name. CookieMonster755✉ 20:11, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Photo bickering

So, there has been some toing and froing regarding photo arrangement. I suggested a discussion here after an edit I made, but an anonymous user reverted instead before a discussion. The edits are coming from anonymous users so I'm not sure if the edits are from a single person or not.

Anyway, my thoughts are that this photo is more befitting as it depicts Fraser during his tenure as Prime Minister and is the "iconic" image of him, used on the cover of two biographies of him. I concede that the second point is somewhat subjective, but the first is definitely in line with MOS:LEADIMAGE "Lead images should be natural and appropriate representations of the topic; they should not only illustrate the topic specifically, but also be the type of image used for similar purposes in high-quality reference works, and therefore what our readers will expect to see." Whereas this photo depicts Fraser in 1929, long before his career zenith. What do others think? Kiwichris (talk) 05:29, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

I saw the photo bickering this morning and protected the article. For the time being, the article can only be edited by autoconfirmed users. That is, IP editors can't change the article around but they can come to the talk page and join in with a discussion. We shall see whether that'll sort things out in a meaningful way. Schwede66 06:15, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Title change

In the main text body, his title is "Peter Fraser, CH PC". Now whilst there are no rules in real life about titles, and a person may style oneself as he wants, there are still conventions on how one should style himself. In particular, debbrets (https://www.debretts.com/expertise/forms-of-address/letters-after-the-name/) says that the postnominal letter "PC" should only be used with a peer in the privy council, as non-peers will just use "the right honourable", so the "PC" should be omitted. NotADev (talk) 04:10, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

So how do you propose Wikipedia refers to him? Are there any existing content guidelines or what are the existing practices in other Wikipedia articles about Privy Counselors? (I haven't looked, yet.) It is all very well to refer to Debbretts in this instance but Wikipedia content editors are not going to know to do so unless the Wikipedia Help or other Manual of Style best practice articles advise this is the way it is done at Wikipedia. Making this sort of seemingly minor change has quite wide ranging consequences. Does this mean he should be referred to the subject of this and similar article as "The Right Honourable Peter Fraser, CH" at the beginning of the article? Other articles about Peter Fraser and even articles about other politicians? Or do we need to have a section, or even a separate article, that explains the various forms of address, such as The Honourable and the The Right Honourable that we might hear said in Parliament and other places when politicians and Privy Counselors are introduced or talked about? I think the various forms of address are a complete mystery to most people, so some comment, perhaps, should be made in the article about how Peter Fraser styled himself or was referred to, at various times of his life. For example: Did he prefer being called The Right Honourable Sir Peter Fraser, Sir Peter or simply Peter? And if you are going to make this change here then, to be consistent, you should make a similar change for every other article about a Privy Counselor, just to be consistent. Also, if a guideline article does not already exist, then there is, perhaps, a need to document best practices in a help page or guideline Wikipedia article or essay to help other contributors understand this change. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 22:59, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

PS: The section on Post-nominal letters in the Manual of Style does not discuss this fine point of social etiquette. Perhaps you need to establish the style convention by consensus, first, before editing this article because, otherwise, other editors might attempt to revert your change, not understanding the conventions involved. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 00:53, 9 January 2021 (UTC)