Talk:Persian language

Edits

@Persian Lad: Could you provide precise page numbers (and perhaps quotes) for these sources?[1] - LouisAragon (talk) 20:22, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

I don't have it right now. If I don't have the quote, then i'll just add another one later that does.--Persian Lad (talk) 23:46, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

@Persian Lad: So you can’t provide page numbers and/or quotes? If so, your edit fails WP:VER. - LouisAragon (talk) 16:37, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

I'll provide it later. There is no WP:DEADLINE--Persian Lad (talk) 21:02, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Relation to other languages in the Middle East

Persia was not the only empire in the Middle East to speak an Indo-European language. What is the connection of Farsi to, e.g., Hittite? -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 14:38, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Adding Turkic influence on Persian grammar

I think this would be a very relevant and noteworthy addition to this article. Unlike most other Indo-European languages and also Indo-Iranian, persian lacks grammatical gender and they use the same personal prounoun as Turkic people for the third person, "U" Turks use "O". The same goes for the first person. There are also some other things that isn't found in old persian like adjectival agreement and more. Here is a preview of a source supporting this claim: https://www.jstor.org/stable/4030859. Altynordu (talk) 13:40, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

We must be very careful not to read things into Perry's paper that are not stated there. He well mentions some superficial typological similarity between Turkic languages and Modern Persian, but he actually does not ascribe structural changes like the loss of gender to Turkic influence. The latter is rather seen in more subtle details (please read the full paper).

Grammatical gender was already lost in all attested forms of Middle Western Iranian due to the loss of final syllables (a process that has parallels in the history of English), thus before Iranian came into close contact with Turkic languages.

The similarity of the personal pronouns (btw nowhere mentioned in the source; are you doing WP:original research?) is entirely fortuitous. E.g. Modern Persian man is a continuation of the Middle Persian oblique form man (direct case: an), which goes back to Old Persian mām (1sg accusative). The latter is in fact a perfect match with Sanskrit mām (also 1sg accusative). –Austronesier (talk) 19:34, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

To me when I read it I think he very clearly stated the correlation of Persian losing its grammatical gender to a Turkish influence but I may be wrong if you would kindly point out where he doesn’t ascribe the change it would really help.

The similarities of the first personal pronouns is my fault I didn’t research it thoroughly enough it just seems like a weird coincidence that the two languages share the first pronouns.

I would like your help to know what the third person pronoun was that was used in Middle Persian. I do know that the one used in modern Persian is identical to the one used in Turkic languages and this would suggest an influence but it wouldn’t if it was the same during Middle Persian so if you would help me understand that it would be great. Altynordu (talk) 18:22, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Do you actually have full access to Perry's paper? Perry describes in much detail and specifically lists which features of Persian he ascribes to Turkic influence. Loss of grammatical gender is not among them.

Please don't do your own research. Historical linguistics is not some kind of amateur pastime that florishes on the talk pages of a user-generated encyclopedia. Cite expert sources, and please only cite them for what they actually say without using them as a starting point for personal musings.

But since you're interested, the Middle Persian article has an excellently written (and excellently sourced) grammar section; the personal pronouns are here: Middle_Persian#Personal_pronouns. For more details you can check Skjærvø's chapter in the Routledge volume The Iranian Languages. And while we're at it, I recommend Johanson's Turkic (Cambridge University Press) to get a full picture of Turkic third person "pronouns" (actually, they're distal demonstrative pronouns). –Austronesier (talk) 21:10, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Enigma

Court scene.

Help! I cannot find a reference for this image. It is claimed as "Fatimid" (but this is extremely unlikely in my opinion, the style is more like 14th century Ilkhanid or Jalayarid) and currently appears in the Arabic miniature article. Can someone confirm that the language of the text above and below the miniature is Persian, rather than Arabic? I would personally bet for a version of the Great Ilkhanid Shahnameh. Any thoughts? Any RS reference? पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 07:41, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Well, I cannot say for sure, because Persian and arabic are technically equal, I could be wrong, but the fact is that (at least) they're kinda the same, I'm gonna google it and I advise you if I found something about it. 177.105.90.20 (talk) 15:17, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

It'd be great if we have reliable sources about it, I definitely don't know how to search, because from what I can tell, there is still no suitable name for this arabic miniature, maybe it really is "Fatimid", anyway, we need (at least) a suitable name for this, otherwise, this edit can't come to no conclusion, and this enigma won't have end, becomin' a endless mystery,i.e, a non-resolved mystery, we soonly need a WP: CORRECT source. 177.105.90.20 (talk) 15:28, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

19216811 170.81.161.153 (talk) 17:45, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

hi i just saw the picture i can read small part of it which definitely is persian and you are correct is around 14th but maybe before that because painting isn't like ilkhanid and more like seljuk or ghaznavid perhaps

and in black line just above painting isnt much clear but a part of it says "told blad(or blar) to search again and must relieved..." or something like that 5.214.12.160 (talk) 01:05, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

19216811 170.81.161.153 (talk) 17:44, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Name of Persian language in Iran

Hello @Snowstormfigorion

Please stop your Anti-Persian sentiment. The name of Persian language from Origin is (Pārsi) and now most of iranians say it Fārsi... But you must not remove it's Originnaly name beacuse you want and think it is right!!!

now using of this noun Pārsi is increasing more in Iran specially between Teenagers and young Iranians.

Please stop anti-Iranian sentiment... Abolfazlsorkhi (talk) 19:19, 24 July 2024 (UTC)