Talk:Perry A. Stambaugh

Semi-protected edit request on 24 February 2021

I am the source for this ... Perry A Stambaugh. I am a professional editor by training and career. Below are my suggested edits to the main copy block on this page (other parts of this page are accurate and appropriate). If they don't meet your standards, keep the copy as is. Please unlock it, though.

Thanks.

Perry Stambaugh

Perry A. Stambaugh (born March 8, 1960) is a Republican member of the Pennsylvania House of Representatives, District 86. He first took office following the 2020 Pennsylvania House of Representatives election.

Career

A long-time rural advocate, Stambaugh supports measures that will greatly increase rural residents’ access to high-speed Internet service and supports state constitutional reforms, such as implementing term limits, electing state appellate judges on a district (not statewide) basis, and eliminating property taxes to fund schools.

Before running for the state House, he spent most of his nearly 40-year professional career as a rural and agricultural magazine editor on local, statewide, and national levels—notably with the former Pennsylvania Farmer magazine (now American Agriculturist); Penn Lines magazine, published by the Pennsylvania Rural Electric Association; and RE Magazine, produced by the National Rural Electric Cooperative Association. Stambaugh is also the sixth-generation owner/operator of a 200-acre bicentennial family farm in Green Park, Pennsylvania, Perry County.

References

Personal life

A graduate of Pennsylvania State University and an Eagle Scout, Stambaugh served as chairman of the Perry County Republican Committee from 2002-2008; as an elected member of Republican State Committee for 16 years; and as a member of numerous civic groups. These include the Perry County Bicentennial Committee; Perry County Farm Bureau; Perry County Friends of Scouting Breakfast Committee; Historical Society of Perry County; The Perry Historians; and Madison Grange No. 2064. He also formerly held the post as council president of Tressler Memorial Free Lutheran Church, Loysville, and is a life member of the National Rifle Association]]. 192.216.120.25 (talk) 15:18, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

References

•  Not done This is promotional and you are not sufficient as a source in this context. We do not rely on the word of subjects on talk pages but what independent reliable sources say. This article is not an extension of your campaign website or bio. CUPIDICAE💕 15:29, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

As far as unlocking, you'll need to go to WP:RFPP but it's rather unlikely to be successful since the person who created this was hired to create it and violated the terms of use and you and your colleagues need to refrain from editing it. So there really isn't a reason to unprotect it. CUPIDICAE💕 15:34, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Box of shame

Praxidicae, what is in the article now that reads like PR? It seems a pretty bog standard stub for a state rep. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:51, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

You mean the extension of his campaign website? And his illustrious career as an Eagle Scout? The simple fact is: this was created as a PR campaign, paid for to a Freelancer who habitually violates our TOU and then heavily edited by the subject himself. Not a word of this is neutral aside from the first sentence. CUPIDICAE💕 15:54, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

So the box has to remain on an article that clearly passes notability and would have been created at some point because someone who doesn't know the inner workings of Wikipedia started it with a COI, so we'll put the scarlet letter there forever? Also, we need more sources to verify he's in the Pennsylvania House of Representatives? At this point this seems a bit mean, rather than for any protection of the encyclopedia. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:09, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

I removed the tag as there was no reason for it anymore. We don't permanently mark articles with no problems that have been created by paid editors. Once the problems have been resolved, the tags can be removed. A long-term problem can also be mentioned on the talk page. Possibly (talk) 17:03, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

I added more sources and removed the two issues relating to needing more sources. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:55, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 February 2021

Good morning! In checking out similar pages for other members of the PA House of Representatives, they all have a "Career" section. Can the following be added to mine? Thanks for your consideration.

 Not done for now: In progress, see discussion below. Bestagon ⬡ 16:29, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Career (2)

Before running for the state House, Stambaugh was employed for 37 years as a rural and agricultural magazine editor on local, statewide, and national levels—notably with the former Pennsylvania Farmer magazine (now American Agriculturist); Penn Lines magazine, published by the Pennsylvania Rural Electric Association; and RE Magazine, produced by the National Rural Electric Cooperative Association. He is also the sixth-generation owner/operator of a 200-acre bicentennial family farm in Green Park, Pennsylvania, Perry County.

Stambaugh graduated from Penn State University with dual degrees in Broadcast Journalism and History. 192.216.120.25 (talk) 15:13, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Prabook is not a reliable source. CUPIDICAE💕 15:18, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Is the bio page on his official website sufficient to source non-controversial facts about him, or do we need a secondary source for that? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:28, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

I'd argue it's WP:UNDUE. The only reason we have an article and the only reason he is notable is because he happened to get elected. The fact that we have one sentence - that he is a representative is about the extent to which he's been reported on. If it needs expansion it should be on the basis of why he's notable (ie. his current legislative career) and should focus on that before building it out further to be an arm of his resume/campaign site. CUPIDICAE💕 15:42, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

How's this for a compromise. Doesn't seem puffy, and covers some biographical detail and history. I'm not too tied into listing organizations, although I think the NRA thing should be added since that's mentioned in particular in the news article cited.

After graduating from Penn State University Stambaugh was employed as an editor of rural and agricultural magazines. He also owns and operates a 200-acre family farm in Green Park, Pennsylvania. He is a member of many organizations including the Perry County Chamber of Commerce, Perry County Farm Bureau, National Rifle Association and Historical Society of Perry County. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:49, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

I'd also like to add from this source his time on different Republican committees. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:54, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

The farm thing and the societies need to go. It's not relevant in the slightest and isn't discussed outside of his biographical data. The NRA is relevant. CUPIDICAE💕 16:00, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

I would argue the farm thing is important because in news articles he's often identified as a farmer. Try this on for size?

== Career ==

After graduating from Penn State University Stambaugh was employed as a reporter for, then an editor of rural and agricultural magazines. He also owns and operates a farm in Green Park, Pennsylvania. He is a member of many organizations including being a lifetime member of the NRA. Stambaugh has been a member of the Tyrone Township Republican Committee since 1990, and has also served on the Perry County Republican Committee and the Republican State Committee. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:03, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

My original point that this is all trivial minus a few bits still stands. This isn't his resume, why do we need to know (despite a small local affiliate piece) that he was a member of a republican committee of a town that has less than 3000 people? Just because it's reported doesn't mean it gets included - it's not relevant to his notability. It's relevant to his campaign site. Should we also include on his high school transcripts and what clubs he was a member of then? CUPIDICAE💕 16:06, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

I'd also argue that the status of someone as a member of a republican town, then county, then state committee is worth noting if the person then becomes notable for being a republican state rep. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:08, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

He's notable only because of inherent notability. If we did not have NPOL, this would be deleted. The bulk of any article should be related to why someone is notable. He is not notable for being a member of a republican club in a town of 2300, he wouldn't even be notable for being a member of a Republican Committee in NYC. Every biographical detail does not need to be mentioned here just because it exists and it certainly shouldn't be the focus of an article when the bulk of what can be said about him is that he was elected in an unopposed election (by only 27k votes) in a deeply red voting population of 200k+. To make this simpler: if he wrote on his website that he was a member of his high school debate team, we would not include that. Why? Because it's irrelevant and this isn't his resume. I would be less opposed to including such information if it was sourced to something more than his own website/a local media outlet based on an interview or gleaning information from his campaign site. I'd even argue the Fox affiliate piece is less than reliable considering Perry Stambaugh is a farmer and rural advocate who knows the region and its conservative values. If elected, Stambaugh will fight for property tax elimination, he will protect the Second Amendment rights, and support government reforms among other things. is clearly not written in a journalists voice and is just a repeat of his campaign literature. CUPIDICAE💕 16:27, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

I guess there was no point in having this conversation since you've gone ahead and implemented your preferred version anyway, despite an ongoing conversation. CUPIDICAE💕 16:33, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

That's why I added "lets see what sticks" to the summary. I'd like to see where you want to go with it, then maybe we can hash something out. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:36, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

An article about a notable person should include the encyclopedic biographical detail about the person. Certainly most detail will likely go into the topic they are notable for but it's not just that info that's included. That's why the article on George Clooney mentions which sports teams he likes, and the article on George Floyd mentions he liked playing basketball and detailed cars. Once someone is notable the other details of their life can be included, not just what directly relates to their notability. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:35, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

The biographical puffery is WP:UNDUE and longer than the content for which he is notable, but I'm not going to discuss this with you further since you don't seem to be willing to wait until any sort of agreement can be reached. Further, information should generally be backed up by independent reliable sources, not campaign literature. Your point about the other articles only serves to prove mine because that is information sourced to independent reliable sources, not campaign literature. Literally nothing can be said about this guy other than what is on his own website. CUPIDICAE💕 16:38, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

I reverted the section, so maybe we can work this out. I feel that most of it is not puffery, just general detail. Went to X school. Did Y for work. Did Z in the community. I'd removed the names of all of the groups he was a part of, aside from the NRA. I did include his spots on republican committees because I believe that is directly related to his position as a state rep for that party. What else do you see needing to be changed? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:42, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

The Pennlive sources and local Fox source both cover the information. Also primary sources are acceptable for regular biographical details, or so I thought. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:48, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

I do not know how to make this clearer. It should not be included because it is not relevant. There are 0 supporting sources that state or even imply that his roles in any of those clubs or even his schooling lead to this career nor that it was the cause for notability. He is notable because he is the only person who ran in the election for this position and he got elected. This is relevant to his legislative career but cannot be included because it is not backed up by independent sourcing discussing it or its relevance.

And no, please re-read what I said about the Fox affiliate piece - it clearly is just a rehash of his campaign website. It presents his platform as fact but is not in the voice of an independent journalist. I'm also not arguing that primary sources aren't reliable, I am however arguing that the weight they should be given in a one sentence stub is pretty low. CUPIDICAE💕 16:52, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

The Fox source is only being used for the republican committees he was a member of, so if you think that's not good enough to verify those I'm sure there's another source for it, or it can be dropped. The other information isn't not relevant it's basic biographical information that one would expect to see in any article about a person. Same as birthday, which has nothing to do with why almost anyone is notable. Name, DoB, DoD, Occupation, higher education, notable accomplishments are the basics every biography should cover. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:00, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

This seems to be going in circles. DOB and DOD are extremely relevant because it establishes whether or not they are alive or dead. Being a member of non-notable clubs is not relevant unless there is coverage of it, which there is not. The only thing it establishes is that he, you know, has a life and does things but is ultimately unimportant that no actual RS has meaningfully covered it. CUPIDICAE💕 17:10, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

How about higher education and occupation? Are those relevant? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:42, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Praxidicae, would you mind if I requested a third opinion, since it seems you and I are unlikely to come to an agreement on this? I was going to use text "Disagreement at Talk:Perry A. Stambaugh#Career (2) on the level of detail to include in the biography of a Pennsylvania State rep." for the entry, unless you have preferred verbage, or don't think we need to go that route. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:41, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

This is not in WP:DRN territory. It can be hashed out here. CUPIDICAE💕 18:46, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Ok. Let me try another version and see if you can live with it. It's just college attended, occupation and the NRA fact.

After graduating from Penn State University Stambaugh was employed as a writer for, then an editor of rural and agricultural magazines. He also owns and operates a family farm in Green Park, Pennsylvania. He is a lifetime member of the NRA. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:51, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Stambaugh graduated from Penn State University and operates a farm in Green Park, Pennsylvania. He is a lifetime member of the NRA. is suitable, we don't need to include the other details because, again, this is not an extension of his campaign literature. CUPIDICAE💕 18:59, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Stambaugh graduated from Penn State University and operates a farm in Green Park, Pennsylvania. He is a lifetime member of the NRA and has sat on local and regional Republican committees.

I'd like to add the committee information because I believe it is pertinent to a politician's article. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:06, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Praxidicae I wouldn't call that the "agreed upon outcome" as much as "the only prose Praxidicae offered" but it's good enough for me. I'd still prefer to mention the republican committee stuff, but it doesn't matter enough to continue arguing about it. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:40, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

I am really trying to work with you but your impatience and tendentious editing is making it difficult. We are discussing - why is it so urgent for you to add it into the article that it cannot wait until we can agree on anything or organically get more discussion going? Stop re-adding it and let this come to a conclusion. CUPIDICAE💕 20:43, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

I didn't re-add it after you removed it. I was under the impression that part of the editing process for an article was putting suggested prose into an article and someone else editing it. I figured using your prose, and adding the bit to the end that I believed should be there was a reasonable and likely to be accepted compromise, so I tried it in the article. You removed the part you did not want. Things are working as intended, yes? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:48, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

No because after I contested your edits to a BLP multiple times, you still continued to re-add contested material despite my numerous objections and even my objections to you continually doing it. Stop editing it so this doesn't become a slow burning edit war. Wait for consensus. There is nothing urgent about this. CUPIDICAE💕 21:01, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure what article history you're looking at, but I have 0 reverts on this one. I tried one bit of prose with the summary "Lets start with this and see what sticks." that you didn't like so I removed it. Then I used your suggested prose and added a small bit to the end with the summary "Trying this compromise. If the republican committee prose is disagreeable remove it for now, but I think it's pertinent on a politician article." You found the committee information disagreeable and removed it. Here we are now. Again, this seems to be how it should work. Also claiming a BLP issue is pretty silly when I'm using sourced information that could also be sourced directly to the BLP subject. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:27, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 25 February 2021 (2)

Interesting discussion. As a professional editor I can assure you I just put the basic facts about my pre-House career (it's what I did), and based it on other Wiki entries for PA House members. (You may want to look at them.) I even found a 1998 or so encyclopedia entry about my editorial career (up to that time) that I used as a draft source in what I submitted, and there are hundreds of articles of mine floating around the web (I can send you links to some if that's helpful). I didn't even add anything about personal groups I belong to, based on your discussions of relevance, which makes sense. Not sure why this isn't important to your readers (especially when it's used in similar entries for legislators), or why the copy submitted isn't fine the way it is. Think you're being a little hard. Thanks for listening.

https://prabook.com/web/perry_allen.stambaugh/508861

http://passengerpigeon.org/flights.html

Looks like what's on the page is what's going to be there unless and until someone else decides to try to change consensus. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:41, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Suggested prose from edit request
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Career Before running for the state House, Stambaugh spent most of his 37-year professional career as a rural and agricultural magazine editor on local, statewide, and national levels—notably with the former Pennsylvania Farmer magazine (now American Agriculturist); Penn Lines magazine, published by the Pennsylvania Rural Electric Association; and RE Magazine, produced by the National Rural Electric Cooperative Association. Stambaugh is also the sixth-generation owner/operator of a 200-acre bicentennial family farm in Green Park, Pennsylvania, Perry County. https://prabook.com/web/perry_allen.stambaugh/508861 http://passengerpigeon.org/flights.html 192.216.120.25 (talk) 17:18, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

References

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