Talk:Perfluorooctanesulfonic acid

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 13 January 2022 and 14 April 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Tnickle8 (article contribs).

Neutrality and Accuracy Disputed

The article states that PFOS is very stable and toxic. While I agree that it is very stable and unreactive, what is the toxic dose of PFOS? untill an unbiased, reputable source is found stating the dose of PFOS in the enviornment is toxic to humans and other animals and organisms, it is a violation of the NPOV and original reaserch policies to make such claims. Also, PFOS is not on the list of the 12 persistent organic pollutants. Polonium 20:33, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

PFOS is frequently listed as a persistent organic pollutant in many documents. It is a suspect endocrine disruptor, cancerogen, and it undergoes bioaccumulation. It is not on the List of Twelve, but its inclusion is being considered. [1] After all, it is persistent, it is organic, and it is pollutant. Or isn't it? --Shaddack 05:51, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Still, it is not on the list of 12 so far, therefore it should not be listed unless it becomes offically listed as a POP. Also, is it really a pollutant? Polonium 14:33, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

The list is named "initial", not "exhaustive". According to the definition of pollutants, they have to be damaging to the environment; as I doubt endocrine disruptors won't be considered as damaging, I therefore believe PFOS can be considered a pollutant. --Shaddack 15:36, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Where is a reputable, unbiased source that states that PFOS is an endocrine disruptor? Also, if it is not yet on the list, the article should not state that it is (unless it is added to the list). Also, some industry front groups, like the ACSH, claim that PFOS is harmless. While these groups are certainly biased, the EWG is also biased. Polonium 18:04, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Does this count as a reputable source? [2] Or an abstract here: [3]. According to SourceWatch, ACSH is little more than a bunch of industry shills [4]. What about setting up a Category:Suspected persistent organic pollutants or something like that? That should satisfy everybody. --Shaddack 18:56, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I will create the proposed category Category:Suspected persistent organic pollutants. Polonium 19:14, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the gist of Polonium's comments above. To me, the current article is almost hysterical. Being extremely stable and toxic are not mutually exclusive, but the combination is exceptional. And it is risky to conclude that long-lived molecules are super-bad. Of course it is also risky to ignore such persistent species. I dont think that PFOS is toxic in the sense that a casual reader would expect, i.e. like cyanide or strychnine. --Smokefoot 21:26, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Category:Suspected persistent organic pollutants

I thought contributors to this article might be interested in this CFD notice. Cgingold 10:31, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

cancer

what is the probablity that this could cause renal cancer to the kidney? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.213.175.139 (talk) 20:54, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

PFOA

Most of the discussion above is no more specific or accurate than the article that it is criticizing. However, there is a clear (minor) technical error in the article. The article says "Perfluorooctanesulfonic acid (PFOA)". This is incorrect nomenclature: PFOA is actually a different chemical: "Perfluorooctanoic acid" (it has no sulfur). PFOS refers to both perfluorooctane sulfonic acid (the dry form) and perfluorooctane sulfonate (the aqueous anion). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.141.22.10 (talk) 06:08, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

I undid this incorrect change. --Leyo 09:40, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Exposure to perfluorinated compounds

Please consider adding this recent study to the article:

“Serum Vaccine Antibody Concentrations in Children Exposed to Perfluorinated Compounds”. Grandjean et al. Journal of the American Medical Association 307(4):391-397, 2012.

Thanks. 24.141.16.132 (talk) 21:04, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

For everyone interested in this article: It may be accessed at doi:10.1001/jama.2011.2034. --Leyo 19:54, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

synthesis, presursor sections

Hi Leyo, I saw you undid my edit here. yes, the 2 things are separate processes, I know. And I think you know I know. -:) My intention was, to not have one-sentence major sections, as you know, and I know you know this is not ok. PLease let's find a section heading that you can live with for these 2 sentences. Thank you !--Wuerzele (talk) 16:02, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

These two things (industrial synthesis vs. transformation of precursors to form PFOS in e.g. WWTPs) may not be merged into one section, even though both sections are short. Both may be extended, see e.g. ENV/JM/MONO(2006)15 (Lists of PFOS, PFAS, PFCA, related compounds and chemicals that may degrade to PFCA, 157 pages) or this review article. --Leyo 19:50, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

Hello, Did you even read what I wrote , man? PLease reply to teh question instead of repeating your opinion...--Wuerzele (talk) 05:52, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

I did read what you wrote, but there is no question. If you like to have a direct statement addressing your last sentence: There is no such section heading. --Leyo 09:15, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Opening sentence

The opening sentence sounds slightly demented.

Perfluorooctanesulfonic acid (PFOS) (conjugate base perfluorooctanesulfonate) is an anthropogenic fluorosurfactant and global pollutant.

So since it is "anthropogenic" it was in fact designed to be a "global pollutant"? Wow, whose laboratory did this? Lex Luthor's? Doctor Octopus's? Secondarily, I would suggest explaining the jargon "anthropogenic" in the sentence rather than forcing someone, who is consulting an encyclopedia for information, down into a rabbit warren of links. Using fancy words does not substitute for knowledge. The fact that it has been determined to be a global pollutant should be in the lede, but maybe not mixed in with its origin in the initial sentence.

Sorry for the sarcasm. Perhaps it is unwarranted. It never ceases to amaze me just when, where, and how much Wikipedia is willing to push an agenda. Don't get me wrong. I'm not in favor of global pollutants. I am in favor, however, of good style and logical thinking. Dynasteria (talk) 07:21, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Edits of Feb 8

I made several edits on Feb 8. The changes were incremental so that they can be inspected. Most of the changes are in threse categories:

1. removing multiple primary refs to one author, leaving the secondary ref
2. reshuffling content in an effort to separate occurrence vs effects vs regulation
3. reducing redundancy
4. some weak refs were removed

BTW, I am not pro- or particularly anti-PFOS, but I am a chemist who is familiar with many of the editing guidelines in this encyclopedia.--Smokefoot (talk) 19:58, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Concerning your last sentence: Already back in 2006, you had a biased view (as in other articles on chemicals with human health and/or environmental issues).

While I acknowledge that you partly improved the article by e.g. re-structuring the content, other edits (e.g. removal of crucial information from the lede, removal of information on isomers, removal of information related to the work done by OECD) clearly deteriorate the article. In my opinion, further editing should rather based on this version, since it would take quite an effort to rectify the damage to the article based on the current version. For now, I don't do a full revert. --Leyo 23:11, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for suggestions. It is tedious work going through a revision that was edited multiple times. So I salute your efforts. Here are your three suggestions:

• crucial information from the lede
  • I reinstated this "It was added to Annex B of the Stockholm Convention on Persistent Organic Pollutants in May 2009....."
  • Otherwise the other refs to not meet MEDRS standards and should not be included in a lede.
• removal of information on isomers.
  • I removed most of the references to the very same authors on isomers. That content is captured in their one secondary ref. Otherwise it is a case of ref spamming. Finally, the isomers of PFOS are not important, its the straight-chained stuff that is dominant in industry, as well as depicted in the ChemBox. Wikipedia has other articles on various perfluoro surfactants.
• removal of information related to the work done by OECD.
  • I will look into this.

I am sorry that you are unhappy with my contributions.--Smokefoot (talk) 03:30, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

I am definitely not unhappy with your contributions generally, but at times when they concern human health and environmental issues.

Lede:

• I don't think that solely mentioning the use in Scotchgard makes sense. Its use as a mist suppressants for hard chromium plating or in AFFF have been similarly important in my view. (I am aware that you did not change anything here.)
• Its extreme persistence is a key property.
• Also its adverse effects need to be mentioned briefly. The risk profile (key document for its addition to the Stockholm Convention) could be used as a (secondary) source, despite of its age.

Isomers:

the isomers of PFOS are not important — the contrary is true: Since PFOS has been manufactured using electrochemical fluorination, roughly 70% to 80% is linear and 20% to 30% is branched (see e.g. PMC 3214619). On the other hand, most PFASs in commerce today are synthesized using telomerization that yields linear isomers only. The mixture of linear and branched isomers presented challenges in providing accurate quantification in environmental matrices.

--Leyo 22:15, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

Lit search update

According to Chemical Abstracts, 11492 reports have appeared on "PFOS". About 40% have appeared since 2015, corresponding to >2 papers per day. 216 of those >2015 papers are secondary (i.e. reviews). 4 most highly cited reviews:

• Wang, Zhanyun; Dewitt, Jamie C.; Higgins, Christopher P.; Cousins, Ian T. (2017). "A Never-Ending Story of Per- and Polyfluoroalkyl Substances (PFASs)?". Environmental Science & Technology. 51 (5): 2508–2518. Bibcode:2017EnST...51.2508W. doi:10.1021/acs.est.6b04806. PMID 28224793.
• Xiao, Feng (2017). "Emerging poly- and perfluoroalkyl substances in the aquatic environment: A review of current literature". Water Research. 124: 482–495. doi:10.1016/j.watres.2017.07.024. PMID 28800519.
• Trojanowicz, Marek; Bojanowska-Czajka, Anna; Bartosiewicz, Iwona; Kulisa, Krzysztof (2018). "Advanced Oxidation/Reduction Processes treatment for aqueous perfluorooctanoate (PFOA) and perfluorooctanesulfonate (PFOS) – A review of recent advances". Chemical Engineering Journal. 336: 170–199. doi:10.1016/j.cej.2017.10.153.
• Wang, Tieyu; Wang, Pei; Meng, Jing; Liu, Shijie; Lu, Yonglong; Khim, Jong Seong; Giesy, John P. (2015). "A review of sources, multimedia distribution and health risks of perfluoroalkyl acids (PFAAs) in China". Chemosphere. 129: 87–99. Bibcode:2015Chmsp.129...87W. doi:10.1016/j.chemosphere.2014.09.021. PMID 25262946.

none of these, THE most cited reviews, were mentioned in our article. I will be addressing that gap. --Smokefoot (talk) 19:58, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

MEDRS

The medical claims in the article are supported by the references below. Do any of these references meet WP:MEDRS standards? How do fellow editors recommend this issue be handled? The basic issue, often, is that evidence of disease causation by ppb levels of PFOS is difficult to establish.

• Stein, C. R.; Savitz, D. A.; Dougan, M. (19 August 2009). "Serum Levels of Perfluorooctanoic Acid and Perfluorooctane Sulfonate and Pregnancy Outcome". American Journal of Epidemiology. 170 (7): 837–846. doi:10.1093/aje/kwp212. PMID 19692329.
• Potera, Carol (April 2009). "REPRODUCTIVE TOXICOLOGY: Study Associates PFOS and PFOA with Impaired Fertility". Environmental Health Perspectives. 117 (4): A148. doi:10.1289/ehp.117-a148a. PMC 2679623.
• Dallaire, Renée; Dewailly, Éric; Pereg, Daria; Dery, Serge; Ayotte, Pierre (September 2009). "Thyroid Function and Plasma Concentrations of Polyhalogenated Compounds in Inuit Adults". Environmental Health Perspectives. 117 (9): 1380–1386. doi:10.1289/ehp.0900633. PMC 2737013. PMID 19750101.
• Steenland, K.; Tinker, S.; Frisbee, S.; Ducatman, A.; Vaccarino, V. (21 October 2009). "Association of Perfluorooctanoic Acid and Perfluorooctane Sulfonate With Serum Lipids Among Adults Living Near a Chemical Plant". American Journal of Epidemiology. 170 (10): 1268–1278. doi:10.1093/aje/kwp279. PMID 19846564.</ref><ref name=Nelson>Nelson, Jessica W.; Hatch, Elizabeth E.; Webster, Thomas F. (February 2010). "Exposure to Polyfluoroalkyl Chemicals and Cholesterol, Body Weight, and Insulin Resistance in the General U.S. Population". Environmental Health Perspectives. 118 (2): 197–202. doi:10.1289/ehp.0901165. PMC 2831917. PMID 20123614.
• Hoffman, Kate; Webster, Thomas F.; Weisskopf, Marc G.; Weinberg, Janice; Vieira, Verónica M. (December 2010). "Exposure to Polyfluoroalkyl Chemicals and Attention Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder in U.S. Children 12–15 Years of Age". Environmental Health Perspectives. 118 (12): 1762–1767. doi:10.1289/ehp.1001898. PMC 3002197. PMID 20551004.
• {Cite journal| last1 = Peden-Adams | first1 = M. M.| last2 = Keil| last3 = Romano| last4 = Mollenhauer| last5 = Fort| last6 = Guiney| last7 = Houde| last8 = Kannan| last9 = Muir| title = Health effects of perfluorinated compounds—What are the wildlife telling us? | first17 = J. M.| last17 = Keller | first16 = P. A.| last16 = Fair | first15 = G. D.| last15 = Bossart | first14 = L.| last14 = Talent | first13 = T.| last13 = Scott | first12 = A. L.| last12 = Segars | first11 = J.| journal = Reproductive Toxicology| last11 = Stuckey| volume = 27| issue = 3–4 | first10 = C. D.| pages = 414–415| year = 2009| doi = 10.1016/j.reprotox.2008.11.016 | first2 = D. E.| last10 = Rice | first3 = T. | first4 = M. A. M. | first5 = D. J. | first6 = P. D. | first7 = M. | first8 = K. | first9 = D. C.}}
• Peden-Adams et al. (June 2008). In PFAA Days II Archived 2011-07-26 at the Wayback Machine (PDF). p. 28.
• Shankar, Anoop; Jie Xiao; Alan Ducatman (2011-10-15). "Perfluoroalkyl Chemicals and Chronic Kidney Disease in US Adults". American Journal of Epidemiology. 174 (8): 893–900. doi:10.1093/aje/kwr171. PMC 3218627. PMID 21873601.
• OECD (2002). "Hazard Assessment of Perfluorooctane Sulfonate (PFOS) and its Salt". ENV/JM/RD(2002)17/FINAL (Page 5).
• Betts KS (July 2008). "Not immune to PFOS effects?". Environ. Health Perspect. 116 (7): A290. doi:10.1289/ehp.116-a290a. PMC 2453185. PMID 18629339.

--Smokefoot (talk) 14:24, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

In Levels in humans is the claim "a small segment of individuals in the upper range of the general population may be over the 91.5 parts per billion level" but the article cited is for trials on mice and states in the abstract "these effects occurred at serum PFOS levels (91.5 ppb in male mice) that were 14 times lower than the average blood concentrations of occupationally exposed humans". Clearly the wording of this paragraph is inconsistent and misleading and needs reworking. 84.65.66.230 (talk) 08:05, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Proposed reorg of articles on PFAS

I propose that all articles on Per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances (PFAS) be revised as follows: the PFAS be recognized as the master article in this collection. Most regulatory and health content from the sub-articles (PFOS, etc) would be relocated to PFAS. The subsidiary articles would then be a fairly dry descriptions of the chemical with an emphasis on directing readers to the master article.

What problem am I trying to solve? PFAS needs help. The subsidiary articles need more help. We lack the editors to maintain all of them. So lets simplify most to "non-newsy" content and lets boost the master with all of the topical info.

The plan:

• Per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances 158 kbyte (241 refs) proposed as master for regulatory, health, environmental aspects
  • Perfluoroalkyl carboxylic acids 7.6. proposed to be stripped of most regulatory, health, environmental aspects, with big "main" directing readers to PFAS
    • Perfluoropropionic acid 4.8. proposed to be stripped of most regulatory, health, environmental aspects, with big "main" directing readers to PFAS
    • Perfluorobutanoic acid 5.6. proposed to be stripped of most regulatory, health, environmental aspects, with big "main" directing readers to PFAS
    • Perfluorooctanoic acid 129 190 refs. proposed to be stripped of most regulatory, health, environmental aspects, with big "main" directing readers to PFAS
    • Perfluorononanoic acid 18. proposed to be stripped of most regulatory, health, environmental aspects, with big "main" directing readers to PFAS
      • Ammonium perfluorononanoate 3.5. proposed to be stripped of most regulatory, health, environmental aspects, with big "main" directing readers to PFAS
    • Perfluorodecanoic acid 25. proposed to be stripped of most regulatory, health, environmental aspects, with big "main" directing readers to PFAS
    • FRD-903 5.7 (a branched PFAS). proposed to be stripped of most regulatory, health, environmental aspects, with big "main" directing readers to PFAS

• • Perfluorosulfonic acids 4.6. proposed to be stripped of most regulatory, health, environmental aspects, with big "main" directing readers to PFAS
    • Perfluoropropanesulfonic acid 2. proposed to be stripped of most regulatory, health, environmental aspects, with big "main" directing readers to PFAS
    • Perfluorobutanesulfonic acid 9. proposed to be stripped of most regulatory, health, environmental aspects, with big "main" directing readers to PFAS
      • Nonaflate 1 (perfluorobutanesulfonate). proposed to be stripped of most regulatory, health, environmental aspects, with big "main" directing readers to PFAS
    • Perfluorohexanesulfonic acid 19. proposed to be stripped of most regulatory, health, environmental aspects, with big "main" directing readers to PFAS
    • Perfluorooctanesulfonic acid 54. proposed to be stripped of most regulatory, health, environmental aspects, with big "main" directing readers to PFAS
      • Perfluorooctanesulfonyl fluoride 16. proposed to be stripped of most regulatory, health, environmental aspects, with big "main" directing readers to PFAS
    • Perfluoro(4-ethylcyclohexane)sulfonic acid 3. proposed to be stripped of most regulatory, health, environmental aspects, with big "main" directing readers to PFAS

--Smokefoot (talk) 13:46, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Central discussion → Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Chemicals#Looking for something to do? Try PFAS --Leyo 23:27, 29 July 2024 (UTC)