Talk:Percheron/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Sasata (talk) 16:54, 12 January 2010 (UTC) Hi, I've signed up for the review. I'll have some comments up in a day or three.

Well some free time popped up so I was able to read it sooner than I thought. Like all of your contributions I've seen for far, it looks well done. Just a few small quibbles: Sasata (talk) 21:16, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

lead *the two sentence lead paragraph looks awkward… could the prose be redistributed?

• I've redistributed it into two paragraphs; let me know if this works.

*"Later they were used for pulling stage coaches, then for use in agriculture and the hauling of heavy goods." construction awkward, compared underlined parts; last part is passive voice

• Changed it a bit. Let me know if this is OK.

• It's better but the last part still bugs me ... "They were originally bred for use as a war horse, then for use pulling stage coaches, and later in agriculture and the hauling of heavy goods." If one leaves out the middle part, the sentence might be parsed "They were bred in agriculture and the hauling of heavy goods." which to me sounds ungrammatical (but my mind is stuck on a way to fix it). Sasata (talk) 06:56, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

• I played with it some more, and it now reads "They were originally bred for use as a war horse. Over time, they began to be used for pulling stage coaches, and later for agriculture and the hauling of heavy goods." Better or worse?

• Better. Sasata (talk) 02:34, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

*"However, population numbers eventually began to recover…" population numbers->the population

• Done.

*"… and today about 2,500 Percheron horses are registered annually in the United States alone." change today to as of 2010 (or whatever year the source gives)

• Done.

*"…and in France they are used for meat production." Not having yet read the rest of the article, I'm wondering if this means that they are used to pull a big meat grinder or something, or if they are used as food? Perhaps it could be a bit less ambiguous.

• Changes to "food", with it linked to horse meat. Does this work, or would you like some other wording?

• Now it's perfectly clear. Sasata (talk) 06:56, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

• Comment: Hi Sasata, I'm sort of the second whip on the horse breed articles, Just wanted to say that WPEQ is behind Dana's efforts here, and if she's not available to tweak something, I'm also monitoring the review and will help if I can. Montanabw^(talk) 02:39, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

• Thank-you for evoking the image of two whip-wielding females on a horse :) Sasata (talk) 06:56, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

• Unfortunately for you, the reality isn't nearly as kinky as in the movies! LOL! (I being more of the Indiana Jones sort, to stow the whip and draw the pistol! grin!)

Description *"The feet and legs should be clean and well muscled. They should be proud and alert, and an intelligent, willing worker." The use of "should" seems to me to be somewhat unencyclopedic prose.

• Tweaked.

*The 1st paragraph of the history section doesn't flow well… for example :*"Theories range from the breed descending from mares captured by Clovis I from the Bretons sometime after 496 AD to their descending from the Arabian stallions brought to the area by Muslim invaders." Sounds awkward to me… should be a comma in there for a pause, but there's a noun+ing thing going on with "to their descending from"

• descend is used (noticeably) four times in two consecutive sentences

:*since these various theories are being compared, it might be useful to give a rough time frame for each of these listed events (specifically, the Battle of Poiters and the Celtic invasions). When did Comte de Rotrou imported horses from Castile?

• Added a date for Battle of Poiters. Removed the Celtic invasion theory because I can't figure out of the source is discussing the Celtic Gauls who lived in the area since the dawn of history or another Celtic tribe that invaded later. Did some copyediting on these sentences to remove some excess wording, please let me know if it helped or hindered. Also, I don't know when Rotrou imported these horses. Post-Crusades, pre-1600s (I know, not at all specific or helpful!).

• It's better, but could probably use some fine-tuning to help it sound more elegant if you're thinking of FAC. But it's good enough for GA and I've struck it. Sasata (talk) 06:56, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

*"After the days of the armoured knight," Brit or Am. English? Also grey in inbox, gray in article.

• American. I fixed these two instances, and didn't see any more, but please let me know if you come across any.

*the breeding of horses in the area was changed to develop horses able to pull heavy stage coaches -> how about "the emphasis in horse breeding was shifted so as to develop horses better able to pull..." any better?

• Changed.

*"…the modern-type Percheron arose" can we remove -type without affecting meaning?

• Reworded slightly, to "modern Percheron type". Basically, I'm trying to say that it wasn't exactly the same Percheron as today, but it was the same basic type.

*"for Percheron breeders to use for the breeding of army mounts" passive voice

• I changed it to "available to Percheron breeders for use breeding army mounts", which I hope helps. If not, could you please propose a different wording, as I am rather at a loss?

*anymore info about founding stallion Jean le Blanc?

• Not that I have been able to find. What further information would you be looking for if I do come across any in the future?

Just wondering if there was any more available details like who owned him, how many offspring he sired, etc. Sasata (talk) 06:59, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

*"exported horses all over the world, from South Africa to South America and Australia to North America." the use of "from…to" makes it sound like you're specifying a range, but wouldn't simple commas be better? (eg. most of the space "from South Africa to South America" is ocean)

• Replaced with commas. Just trying to liven up the prose a little...guess I shouldn't do that :)

Thank you for the review so far. It may be tomorrow evening before I am able to address the comments about the description section, although I will try to do it sooner. Dana boomer (talk) 23:20, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

I believe I have addressed all of your points above. Please let me know if there are futher issues or if any of the above comments have not been addressed to your satisfaction. Thanks again for the review! Dana boomer (talk) 17:50, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

• Continued Sasata (talk) 06:56, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

• I did a literature search on the topic, and have some suggestions for further sources. Don't feel obliged to include any, I'm just thinking out loud:
• [1] - a review on an early book on the breed, and some flowery prose which might be quote-worthy to add some spice
• [2] - this one goes into the history of breeding for color in some detail. I found it interesting that American buyers in the 1800s preferred dark colored draft horses

Most Percherons I have run into here out west are Black, hmmm. Interesting. Montanabw^(talk) 20:30, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

• [3] - this article quotes the 1867 Ohio Agricultural Report (Part II, p. 34), and gives an interesting perspective: "They often weigh from 1,200 to 1,800—are big, raw-boned, heavy-footed, heavy-bodied—and when they put down their feet you can hear them almost as far as you can see them; and you have to keep them shod, or you can't put them on the road, or to the carriage; and you can only drive them about as fast as a goat then. Three or four miles an hour is about the height of their speed."

That one is an odd quote if specific to the Percheron (sounds like a description of the Shire, actually), as the Percheron has always been noted for agility and liveliness when compared to other draft breeds. Montanabw^(talk) 20:30, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

• [4] - Herbert Haseltine made what seems to be a somewhat notable sculpture of a percheron (according to this source)
• Title: Percherons in Russia. Author(s): Parfenov, V.; Tsyganok, I.; Semak, A. (1996). Source: Konevodstvo i Konnyi Sport 4 : 4-6.

Abstract: "The breeding of Percherons in Russia began in the middle of the last century. During the Second World War, they were removed to 2 studs, at which their breeding was subsequently concentrated. Currently, there are 8 stallions and 104 mares. Data are tabulated on body measurements of mares at the studs, and the use and characteristics of individual breeding lines are discussed."

Thanks for providing these! I don't have access to JSTOR, so I've posted on the reference request board, asking if anyone can get PDFs for me on all of these articles, except for the first book. That seems to be just an excerpt of the book, which I can get full text through Google, and so I will work on gonig through that and seeing if there is anything to add. All of them look like possibly useful sources, and should be quite helpful in taking the article forward to FAC, as I plan to do. There are also a few other more modern Percheron-specific books that I plan to get through ILL, before going to FAC. Dana boomer (talk) 17:35, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

I do think we're over the GA line with this one, so I will promote it. Look forward to seeing the tweaked and enhanced version sometime at FAC. Sasata (talk) 02:34, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Thank you very much Sasata! Dana boomer (talk) 12:32, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

   Clearly written, complies with MoS.

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c(OR):

   Article has appropriate citations, and all are to reliable sources. Random spot check of several sources turned up nothing amiss.

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

   Coverage comparable to other horse breed GAs.

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   All images have appropriate creative commons licenses.

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

CONGRATS DANA!!! Montanabw^(talk) 04:03, 15 January 2010 (UTC)