Talk:Paul I Šubić of Bribir

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Ban of Croatia

Dear @Tezwoo:, I highly appreciate you expanding this important article. I have noticed already before that there are differences between the Croatian and Hungarian historiographies regarding the dignity of ban. According to the latter, whole Croatia, Dalmatia and Slavonia were governed by a single ban on behalf of the monarch until 1275. The position was frequently called as simply "banus", "banus Sclavonie" or "banus totius Sclavonie", i.e. "Ban of Slavonia", which covered whole present-day Croatia (including Dalmatia and Slavonia) despite the name. Since 1225, another position appeared in contemporary records sporadically, called shortly "banus maritimus" (Hungarian: tengermelléki bán) or "Ban of Primorje". Sometimes also called "vice-ban", this office-holder was considered a deputy of the Ban of Slavonia in order to facilitate the administration. In 1274, Paul Šubić held this position.

Due to political faction fighting in Hungary, the dignity of Ban of Slavonia was divided. At first, Ivan Kőszegi and Nicholas Gutkeled held the dignity jointly in early 1275. In this capacity, Kőszegi was responsible for the territory between the river Drava and the Kapela Mountains, while Gutkeled administered the Adriatic Coast. The separate dignity of Ban of Croatia emerged from this by April 1275. Nicholas Gutkeled was called "banus maritimus" (April), then "banus totius Croatie et Dalmatie" (June, July, September) and also "banus Croacie" (July) at once time. He was succeeded by Paul still in that year (presumably). Consequently, Gutkeled was definitely the first Ban of Croatia in the Kingdom of Hungary in 1275. Paul Šubić held the office of Ban of Primorje (banus maritimus), in 1274, subordinating to the Ban of Slavonia, one of the great officers of the kingdom. The dignity "Ban of Croatia" had emerged from this position in the next year, becoming also a dignity and coequal with "Ban of Slavonia". --Norden1990 (talk) 10:34, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

I'm still trying to connect the events surrounding his arrival to the position of ban. Most of what you said is also present in Karbić 2004, but the problem is that there are some other sources that have different years. So you are right about the banus maritimus, I was planning on adding more about that from Karbić 2004, p. 11-12. He says that Mauricije/Maurus was the ban in May 1273, a position that meant deputy ban of the whole of Slavonia, and that Paul was reffered to as ban/vice-ban (meaning Ban of Primorje) in August 1273, so he came to that position in 1273. This means that some sources are not correct when they place his arrival to the banship in 1274.

There's ambiguity over who replaced Paul in 1274. Karbić (2004) says on p. 12: "Historians (...) generally thought that Nicholas Gutkeled had been appointed in his place, which is not true because Gutkeled's party had major political problems at the time, and Paul's removal was probably caused by their temporary defeat." He then says that in the summer of 1275, Paul returned to the position of ban, probably with the help from Nicholas, the ban of whole of Croatia and Dalmatia. And after "Nicholas went to Hungary" (he didn't mention a year), Paul remained the only ban. Tezwoo (talk) 11:05, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Attila Zsoldos' archontology (2011) confirms Karbić 2004: Maurus was "ban of Primorje" and podesta of Spalato in May 1273, Paul was "vice-ban of Primorje" in August 1273. He does not mention Paul's banship in 1274 (p. 46). Yes, Nicholas Gutkeled was definitely not "Ban of Croatia" in 1274. His family, with the leadership of Joachim Gutkeled suffered a heavy defeat in September 1274 (Battle of Föveny), losing influence for months. The Gutkeleds retook the power by the spring of 1275 (Nicholas Gutkeled became co-Ban of Slavonia, then Ban of Croatia during that time [p. 47-48.]). Zsoldos 2011 does not mention a ban or vice-ban of Primorje after Paul's office-holding (August 1273). Throughout the year 1274. Henry Kőszegi (Gutkeleds' ally, killed in the abovementioned battle), then Denis Péc served as Ban of Slavonia. Henry's son Ivan and Nicholas Gutkeled first appear as Ban of Slavonia in April 1275. Soon, Ivan Kőszegi is solely styled as Ban of Slavonia until the autumn of 1275, while Gutkeled was Ban of Croatia (and Dalmatia) in the same time. Zsoldos writes that Paul is first referred to as Ban of Croatia only in February 1290 (p. 49.). However it is inessential, I think: de facto, the Subic family governed whole Croatia independently of the monarch since 1270s (Ladislaus IV's rule was nominal for a substantial part of the two kingdoms by the 1280s), gradually expanding their influence and usurping the dignity of Ban of Croatia, which became hereditary thereafter (see, Andrew III and Charles of Anjou's donations). --Norden1990 (talk) 11:36, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Karbić wrote a review of that book. According to this source [1], Nicholas was ban of (all) Croatia and Dalmatia only in 1275, so this would be the year for which Karbić says that Paul remained the only ban. Tezwoo (talk) 19:56, 17 May 2020 (UTC)