Talk:Patriarch of Kyiv

Kyiv spelling change

The article should be moved/renamed to reflect the city name's spelling change on Wikipedia--RicardoNixon97 (talk) 20:07, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 25 September 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved and will then straighten out the Kiev railway station situation as noted by Shhhnotsoloud. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:09, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

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• Patriarch of Kiev → Patriarch of Kyiv
• Archeparchy of Kiev → Archeparchy of Kyiv
• Kiev railway station → Kyiv railway station

– Kyiv spelling change on Wikipedia RicardoNixon97 (talk) 13:01, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 17:15, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose these 3 requests. There is an ongoing discussion at Talk:Kyiv#Related names where consensus seems to be that the renaming of the article on the city of Kyiv does not automatically extends to derivative names. These may follow specific conventions, or another usage may be more common. Specifically, these are dab pages where some or all entries use Kiev. Also, some of these pages were boldly moved by the nominator and reverted, and nominating then as "‎Uncontroversial technical requests" without opening a discussion borders on edit warring. Place Clichy (talk) 15:48, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
  • At the very least, Patriarch of Kyiv is a title largerly used by a church that was founded in the 1990s, so it falls under the post independence period of naming the city. Similarly, catholic archeparchy of Kyiv was restored in 1998. As for the railway station, "Kyiv Pasazhyrsky" has 4430000 Google results, while "Moscow Kiyevsky" has 231000 results, so the Kyiv railway station is more searched.--RicardoNixon97 (talk) 07:05, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
• Support. Isn't this just like Beijing versus Peking? It's an alternative romanization not an alternative name. So there should be no issue with using it historically. 3K008P9 (talk) 08:25, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

  The Chinese examples are pronounced differently. The one name of the Ukrainian city is pronounced one way in English, and we have chosen our preferred variant spelling for the article title. —Michael Z. 15:43, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

• Regarding Kiev railway station: a disambiguation page here is not required. Kyiv-Pasazhyrskyi Railway Station should be moved to Kyiv-Pasazhyrskyi railway station (after this RM is closed so as not to confuse it). Kiev railway station should redirect to Kyiv-Pasazhyrskyi railway station with a hatnote {{redirect-distinguish|Kiev railway station|Moscow Kiyevsky railway station}}. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 09:00, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

  3K008P9 is right that Kyiv/Kiev is exactly like Beijing/Peking because it is exactly the same name of the city, because Kyiv's name has never changed for 15 centuries cince its establishment in 482 AD, same as Beijing's name has never changed for 30 centuries since its establishment in 1045 BC. The only thing that ever changed for both these cities was the transliteration/latinization/romanization of these cities in English latin alphabet: Peking was the latinization from Cantonese Chinese, while Beijing is the latinization from Mandarin Chinese; Kiev was the latinization from Russian, while Kyiv is the latinization from Ukrainian. There is no and cannot be any logical "cut-off" date for when the city name changed name, because Kyiv never changed its name (unlike other Ukrainian cities that have indeed changed their names many times, the recent example being Horishni Plavni which changed its name in 2016 (and previously the name was Komsomolsk-na-Dnipri). With all due respect, user:Mzajac you are wrong in thinking that Kiev and Kyiv are pronounced the same (they are pronounced differently: in uk-UA IPA terms it is pronounced as kɨ̞-jiβ̞ (per Max Vakulenko, Ukrainian linguist); in layman terms, Kyiv is pronounced as K + first syllable 'sy' in 'sync' + both syllables in 'eve'; there is a ton of research by respectable linguists that shows that Kyiv is pronounced differently from Kiev, for example see here for an analysis of Kyiv prononciation by Russian linguist Zoya Polack from University of Washington in Seattle (her IPA is slightly different from Vakulenko, she recommends Kyiv to be pronounced as 'kee-yiv' (which is not as good an IPA as Vakulenko's, because the "kee" part is actually prounuced a bit differently as 'kɨ̞' (see Vakulenko's explanation above)) (and if you are in the mood - Candadian stand-up comedians at CBC Radio made an incredibly funny, yet correct, summary of the whole Kyiv pronunciation debate - listen for 90 sec starting 10:13 here https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5360367)); however, the whole pronunciation of Kyiv debate does not and should not be influencing the decisiou of whether or not Kyiv should be used in all contexts in Wikipedia (except idiomatic expressions such as Chicken Kiev), because it is completely irrelevant (for what it's worth, Mzajac, you are, however, right that Kyiv is not pronounced as KEEV or KEEVE - the whole KEEV/KEEVE was a Nov 2019 hoax that someone started after Zelensky-Trump debacle; it was since refuted by reputable sources).— Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.175.201.50 (talk • contribs)

  There’s debate about the English pronunciation. It is relatively tiny fraction of English-speakers that knows Ukrainian and pronounces it more-or-less like Ukrainian, and another tiny fraction that saw this in the news last November and cares. Some dictionaries reflect this by giving pronunciations for a Ukrainian context, and they are not consistent. To the vast majority there is no awareness of any pronunciation but the one they’ve always heard, even as they read Kyiv in every newspaper and news site. So, perhaps we can’t state definitively each spelling has or hasn’t a distinct pronunciation. Certainly not like Peking/Beijing.

  Thanks for the link. In the clip at 10:50 I can hear an English-speaker’s version of the name as spoken in Ukrainian, with a very reduced first syllable and a glide, that would be imperceptible to non-ukrainian speakers. I don’t think we have heard any linguist’s detailed phonetic analysis of this in popular media—only a phonemic description aimed at an anglophone audience. Anyway, interesting chat, can’t see it affecting this RM. —Michael Z. 21:45, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

  Hi Michael, you are right that we have not heard any linguist’s detailed phonetic analysis of this (i.e., Kyiv's pronounciation) in popular media. There is some good phonetic analysis buried deep in 10 pages of comments here https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=45004 by the very same Max Vakulenko I mentioned above, but that article in languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu can probably be best described as "linguist's reddit/blog discussion", so it naturally does not qualify as popular media (and I doubt anybody other than the 10-15 linguists who commented on that article have ever seen it, let alone made any necessary conclusions to fix their pronunciation of Kyiv). And yes you are right - this whole discusison on Kyiv pronunciation will probably not affect this RM discussion - sorry for steering the conversation into off-topic area.--67.175.201.50 (talk) 22:45, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

• Support In the first three, every subject on the page uses this spelling officially, every article about them uses it. In the fourth, if more than one spelling variant is said to apply for some reason, then we should use the main-article title, Kyiv. None of these are “historical articles” so there is no debate about using any but the current spelling, at talk:Kyiv. Please review the recent move decision at talk:Kyiv #Requested move 1 July 2020, which referred to wp:commonname, wp:modernplacename, wp:namechanges, and note that wp:consistent and wp:titlecon apply with respect to the main article. —Michael Z. 15:43, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
• Support. Kyiv has not been renamed ever since it was founded. We cannot rename Kyiv or any other city in any period of its history. It is about spelling. Before there was "Kiow", then "Kiev", then "Kyiv". I have not seen any authoritative source in which different names of Kyiv are used in different periods of history. If we do this differentiation and keep writing "Kiev", we violate WP:VERIFY, WP:ORIGINAL and distort the perception of history. In the entire historical line since Kyiv was founded, including places, events and persons, must be written "Kyiv". --AndriiDr (talk) 03:35, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
• Support per nomination, 3K008P9, Michael Z. and AndriiDr who makes an excellent argument about Kyiv having the same name, albeit differently transliterated into English, throughout its history. As for the three nominations, above, historical arguments are not even applicable since, as has been pointed out, the entities in question are present-day ones, thus making it counterintuitive to use any form of the city's name other than the one in the main title header of its English Wikipedia entry — Kyiv. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 07:43, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
• Support Ales sandro (talk) 11:37, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
• Support - per 3K et al., it's like Peking/Beijing, a change in spelling, not a change in name. Lev!vich 19:32, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
• Support. Given that these are not historical articles, I can see no objection to moving these article titles, though I obviously disagree with most of the support votes here on the nature of the change between Kiev and Kyiv.--Ermenrich (talk) 19:57, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.