Talk:Parramatta Female Factory and Institutions Precinct

Naming of this article

I'm struggling to work out what to do with one of these because it's such a significant site, but it doesn't have an obvious title. This site ("Norma Parker Correctional Centre" in the SHR) has variously been the Parramatta Female Factory, the Roman Catholic Orphan School, the Parramatta Girls Home, and the Norma Parker Correctional Centre prison. Each of these (apart from the last one) have articles relating to their specific institutions (all notorious for various reasons), rather than the buildings/site itself. It is on the Australian National Heritage List as Parramatta Female Factory and Institutions Precinct. Anyone have any suggestions?

I also wonder if it might be worth starting with the vastly superior NHL content rather than the SHR on this one. The Drover's Wife (talk) 08:29, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

In such cases, I find it easier to put the HR content into a new Blah Blah building article and link it to the articles about the use of the buildings at the various points in time , which then cross link back to the building article mentioning its HR status. Kerry (talk) 15:07, 25 August 2018 (UTC)

I was planning on doing that - but I'm damned if I can work out what to call it. The Drover's Wife (talk) 21:05, 25 August 2018 (UTC)

Clunky though it is, perhaps the NHL "... and Institutions Precinct" might be the best of bad options? -- Euryalus (talk) 21:26, 25 August 2018 (UTC)

Hi @The Drover's Wife, Kerry Raymond, and Euryalus: I hope everyone didn't mind, but I've created Parramatta Female Factory and Institutions Precinct on the basis that naming for all federal heritage register articles should take precedence over the naming for state heritage register articles. If we're happy with what I've done thus far, I suggest that, in this instance, we redirect the above-mentioned articles into the newly created article. We should keep Cumberland Hospital as it is a much bigger site, of which the former female factory is part of. Rangasyd (talk) 17:10, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

Having done that and looking further afield I came across this report that gives good context and which may contradict the position taken. (see schematic on page iv) of "Parramatta North Historic Sites Consolidated Conservation Management Plan: Part B—Norma Parker Centre/Kamballa Site" (PDF). 17 March 2017. Rangasyd (talk) 19:06, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

I'm not in favour of redirecting the above articles: as Kerry suggested, there are often cases where it makes sense to have one article for the physical buildings and another for the institution (often used with heritage-listed schools) - and this is about the most appropriate case of this approach there is. All of the institutions on the site apart from the modern jail have very notable and very controversial histories and what remains of their buildings today with a brief history of the overall site is a very different subject from their own institutional histories. Rangasyd's additional source is extremely useful, but seems to have done what the SHR did in going with the most recent use of the site for naming (although it's the least notable - though still notable - use of it). I think the Parramatta Female Factory and Institutions Precinct article that Rangasyd has put together is superb and exactly what I was aiming to do for the site - although I'd like to take out the bits that have been taken from at least one of the institution articles (for reasons explained above). The Drover's Wife (talk) 21:40, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

I've reworked the hell out of the article merging in the best bits of all the various CC-BY content available to us. Pretty happy with the result, although it could always use later editing. The Drover's Wife (talk) 22:58, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

Great work, everyone! Having separate articles often works when the place is significant in a number of different ways and therefore likely to attract readers looking for a particular perspective on the site. When I am not sure what to do, I usually go with "make an additional article and cross-link". I figure that leaves the option later to merge if someone can come up with a neat way to do it, whereas it is much harder to unscramble the egg if you have merged prematurely. Kerry (talk) 07:02, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

This discussion has been moved from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Australian historic places#Norma Parker Correctional Centre naming help Rangasyd (talk) 15:06, 28 August 2018 (UTC)