Talk:Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe
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Are the number of members and votes decided by countries' size (as stated in the article) or their population?
List of presidents edit
The Presidents section of this page duplicates the article List of Presidents of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, I'm not sure whether that is best redirected here or whether the list here should be spun out? Thryduulf (talk) 17:43, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
PACE and Northern Cyprus edit
Related PACE Resolutions edit
1997: (Res. 1997-1113) "In order to improve its dialogue with the people of Cyprus, the Assembly: instructs its committees concerned to invite representatives of the political forces of the Turkish Cypriot community to be represented whenever the situation in Cyprus is discussed; invites the representatives of the political forces of both communities to start discussing possible ways to ensure the proper representation of the whole people of Cyprus in the Assembly"
http://www.assembly.coe.int//Main.asp?link=http://www.assembly.coe.int/Documents/AdoptedText/TA97/ERES1113.HTM
2004: (Res. 2004-1376) The resolution after which TCs participate in PACE with 2 representatives[1]: "The Assembly therefore decides to associate more closely elected representatives of the Turkish Cypriot community"
http://assembly.coe.int/Main.asp?link=/Documents/AdoptedText/ta04/ERES1376.htm Alexyflemming (talk) 10:22, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
Turkish Cypriot Representatives of PACE Elected in the Assembly of Northern Cyprus edit
Turkish Cypriots are represented in PACE by two Turkish Cypriot members selected in the Assembly of Northern Cyprus. The selected members (with parties indicated) are: 25.01.2005: CTP Özdil Nami; UBP Huseyin Ozgurgun;[2]11.04.2006 CTP Ozdil Nami; UBP Huseyin Ozgurgun;[3]; 17.03.2007: CTP Özdil Nami; UBP Huseyin Ozgurgun; [4] 27.01.2011 CTP Mehmet Caglar; UBP Ahmet Eti; [5]04.12.2013 CTP Mehmet Caglar [6]Alexyflemming (talk) 10:32, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
- I do not know if you are right about the Turkish Cypriot community having some kind of status with regard to PACE, but they ar not one of the Parliaments with observer status, as their own website clearly shows. See the list on their web site. I will remove them from the table. The status of the Turkish Cypriot community, if any, has to be presented in another way. --T*U (talk) 13:10, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
Pictures of Turkish Cypriot Representatives Participating in PACE Sessions edit
Picture of Turkish Cypriot deputies sitting in PACE:
http://www.todayszaman.com/newsDetail_getNewsById.action;jsessionid=516B38E2EAFF2073525EEB08F7B53903?newsId=105715
Speech of Turkish Cypriot deputy in PACE:
http://assembly.coe.int/Main.asp?link=/Documents/Records/2013/E/1310031500E.htm :"Mr ÇAĞLAR (Representative of the Turkish Cypriot Community)"Alexyflemming (talk) 15:20, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
Related Edit edit
TU-nor opposes the edit with the following reasonings (I answered TU-nor's fear as far as I did till now):
1. PACE's own web site does not list them as such:
PACE's website lists Parliaments, not Parliamenterians. Hence, your "has to be presented in another way" offer was satisfied by taking "Turkish Cypriot Community" from Parliaments to Parliamenterians.
2. Sources do not use words "observer" or "status". You have placed them under the main heading "Members".:
I'll try to find sources including "observer" or "status" words
- Wanted Sources:
- a. http://politikaakademisi.org/cyprus-a-valid-test-for-the-eu-nobel-prize/ In 2004, the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe gave observer status to the representatives of Turkish Cypriot community.
- b. The Foreign Policy of Counter Secession: Preventing the Recognition of Contestes States (James Lindsay), Page 149
Turkish Cypriot community was awarded observer status in the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe (PACE)
http://books.google.com.tr/books?id=4PwmeRG9QsUC&pg=PA149&lpg=PA149&dq=PACE+%22Council+of+Europe%22+%22Turkish+Cypriot%22+state+%22observer+status%22&source=bl&ots=GuVicsDyYM&sig=bGQBdkMfEBnmay9mN2BKOkffW4A&hl=tr&sa=X&ei=iwQOU_6ZNIqi0QXNkYC4Dg&ved=0CE0Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=PACE%20%22Council%20of%20Europe%22%20%22Turkish%20Cypriot%22%20state%20%22observer%20status%22&f=false
3. Turkish Cypriot community having some kind of status with regard to PACE, but not one of the Parliaments with observer status, as PACE's website shows. The status of the Turkish Cypriot community, if any, has to be presented in another way.:
Your "has to be presented in another way" offer was satisfied by taking "Turkish Cypriot Community" from Parliaments to Parliamenterians.Alexyflemming (talk) 15:00, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
- Good! Find sources to clarify the formal status of the TC representatives, and then we can discuss whether and/or how to present them in the PACE article. And "has to be presented in another way" means "has to be presented in a way that is supported by the sources". --T*U (talk) 15:14, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
- I wish you wouldn't put your new post inside the old ones. It makes it close to impossible to follow the thread. Anyway, at least the second source seems good enough. It might be used to support an entry about the relation between PACE and the TC community. It would, however, have to be put somewhere else than in the "Members" section, since that section deals with the formal categories as outlined by PACE themselves on their website. You could try to make a new section after "Presidents" and before "Controversy". You would have to find a neutral heading and also make the presentation neutral (and short, to avoid WP:UNDUE). And please: The flag of the TRNC has absolutely nothing to do in this context. Good luck! --T*U (talk) 16:32, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
- I'll put the new section after "Presidents" and before "Controversy" as you suggested. As for Flag:The Turkish Cypriot representatives are elected in the Assembly of Northern Cyprus. The flag of Northern Cyprus (and Turkish Cypriots) is just that one.Alexyflemming (talk) 18:05, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
- I am not impressed. It would have been possible to give the reader information about the relation between PACE an the TC community by choosing a suitable title and writing one or two sentences to describe the relation, using the three last sources (I do not see what is the use of the first). Instead the reader gets a non-informative "table" with one entry which only can be seen as an attempt to connect this entry to the "Members" section further up. As for the flag, it is a gross misrepresentation of facts to use the TRNC flag in connection to PACE. It is not the flag of "the Turkish Cypriots", it is a flag of an entity that is not ackowlegded by PACE. Please stop this POV-pushing. --T*U (talk) 22:00, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
- I'll put the new section after "Presidents" and before "Controversy" as you suggested. As for Flag:The Turkish Cypriot representatives are elected in the Assembly of Northern Cyprus. The flag of Northern Cyprus (and Turkish Cypriots) is just that one.Alexyflemming (talk) 18:05, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
- I wish you wouldn't put your new post inside the old ones. It makes it close to impossible to follow the thread. Anyway, at least the second source seems good enough. It might be used to support an entry about the relation between PACE and the TC community. It would, however, have to be put somewhere else than in the "Members" section, since that section deals with the formal categories as outlined by PACE themselves on their website. You could try to make a new section after "Presidents" and before "Controversy". You would have to find a neutral heading and also make the presentation neutral (and short, to avoid WP:UNDUE). And please: The flag of the TRNC has absolutely nothing to do in this context. Good luck! --T*U (talk) 16:32, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
- Good! Find sources to clarify the formal status of the TC representatives, and then we can discuss whether and/or how to present them in the PACE article. And "has to be presented in another way" means "has to be presented in a way that is supported by the sources". --T*U (talk) 15:14, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
- Why does PACE choose the representatives of Turkish Cypriots from the Assembly of Northern Cyprus instead of from the Assembly of Cyprus? The flag is just the flag of the Turkish Cypriots:
https://www.google.com.tr/?gfe_rd=ctrl&ei=p80OU4LoL8vI8gegyoGYCw&gws_rd=cr#q=Turkish+Cypriots+flag
https://www.google.com.tr/search?q=Turkish+Cypriots+flag&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=ss0OU9KfOsHb0QXfwIDYCg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1366&bih=616
Also, if you ask Turkish Cypriots "what is your flag?", then 99% of the replies with that flag. This is also the usage in all Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_the_Organisation_of_Islamic_Cooperation#Observer_states
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Cooperation_Organization#Member_states
In the international sessions of the international organizations (like Organisation of Islamic Cooperation, Economic Cooperation Organization), always that flag is used.:
http://www.sentezhaber.com/spor/kibris-ilk-uluslararasi-spor-organizasyonuna-imza-atti-h133773.html
Flags in PACE article are the flags always from which the representatives are chosen. Notice this. Alexyflemming (talk) 05:45, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
- When you can back up with sources that this flag is used in PACE, you are welcome to put it in. Until then, it stays out. --T*U (talk) 07:21, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
- Eight years later I must say that the issue is not resolved. In the article, the Turkish Cypriot delegation still appears as "Other delegations" under the header "Members", but there is absolutely nothing in the PACE website to suggest that they form indeed a specific delegation. They do not appear in any place at the organisational chart of PACE. And the sources given about PACE resolutions say that the Turkish Cypriot members are integrated in the Cypriot delegation - they cannot be an "other delegation", if they are part of an existing one. I'm afraid that the table section under "Members" must be just taken out and replaced by a sentence explaining that the Cypriot Delegation has in fact two Turkish Cypriot members. I would do it myself, but I fear there is much sensibility here, and I'm not eager to start an edit war. But as it is now, it is just plain misleading if compared to PACE's own website. Ilyacadiz (talk) 09:50, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
- Some clarifications: I said above the Turkish Cypriot delegates cannot appear as "Other delegation", and they don't in the text, they appear as "Invited representatives", but under this header - which is included under the "Members" header - they still appear as "Delegation". And there is no such thing at the PACE website. You can see it here. https://pace.coe.int/en/pages/national-delegations There are several kind of delegations which are not member States, but none of them includes anybody from Cyprus. In the list of members (i.e. individuals, here: https://pace.coe.int/en/members ), you can track anybody who ever was present as part of a delegation, from Morocco over Canada to Palestine and Kosovo, but nothing for anybody from Cyprus outside de Delegation of the Republic of Cyprus. So a paragraph about this question is welcome, but not a distinct section under "Members", because nothing appears in PACE under any kind of "members". Ilyacadiz (talk) 10:30, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
- The Turkish Cypriot delegation is listed under "invited representatives" not under the "other delegations" which only includes Kosovo. I have changed the main heading from "Members" to "Participants" to avoid giving an impression that all the different tyupes of delegations are members of the organisation. I hope this addresses these issues. I will add a sentence below the "invited representatives" to better explain the situation. ComminutedOrange (talk) 11:01, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
- Looks much better now, thanks. Still, I have changed the small header "Delegation" in the chart to "Participants", following your example, because "Delegation" is a specific term in the PACE environment, and Turkish Cypriots do not qualify as such, as they are in fact members of another delegation. Ilyacadiz (talk) 12:19, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
- The Turkish Cypriot delegation is listed under "invited representatives" not under the "other delegations" which only includes Kosovo. I have changed the main heading from "Members" to "Participants" to avoid giving an impression that all the different tyupes of delegations are members of the organisation. I hope this addresses these issues. I will add a sentence below the "invited representatives" to better explain the situation. ComminutedOrange (talk) 11:01, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
- Some clarifications: I said above the Turkish Cypriot delegates cannot appear as "Other delegation", and they don't in the text, they appear as "Invited representatives", but under this header - which is included under the "Members" header - they still appear as "Delegation". And there is no such thing at the PACE website. You can see it here. https://pace.coe.int/en/pages/national-delegations There are several kind of delegations which are not member States, but none of them includes anybody from Cyprus. In the list of members (i.e. individuals, here: https://pace.coe.int/en/members ), you can track anybody who ever was present as part of a delegation, from Morocco over Canada to Palestine and Kosovo, but nothing for anybody from Cyprus outside de Delegation of the Republic of Cyprus. So a paragraph about this question is welcome, but not a distinct section under "Members", because nothing appears in PACE under any kind of "members". Ilyacadiz (talk) 10:30, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
- Eight years later I must say that the issue is not resolved. In the article, the Turkish Cypriot delegation still appears as "Other delegations" under the header "Members", but there is absolutely nothing in the PACE website to suggest that they form indeed a specific delegation. They do not appear in any place at the organisational chart of PACE. And the sources given about PACE resolutions say that the Turkish Cypriot members are integrated in the Cypriot delegation - they cannot be an "other delegation", if they are part of an existing one. I'm afraid that the table section under "Members" must be just taken out and replaced by a sentence explaining that the Cypriot Delegation has in fact two Turkish Cypriot members. I would do it myself, but I fear there is much sensibility here, and I'm not eager to start an edit war. But as it is now, it is just plain misleading if compared to PACE's own website. Ilyacadiz (talk) 09:50, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
- When you can back up with sources that this flag is used in PACE, you are welcome to put it in. Until then, it stays out. --T*U (talk) 07:21, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
References edit
Russia edit
http://rt.com/news/russia-pace-resolution-boycott-612/ Xx236 (talk) 06:32, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
External links modified edit
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The Russia connection edit
https://dossier-center.appspot.com/kremlin-pace/ Xx236 (talk) 10:01, 16 September 2022 (UTC)