Talk:Paracas Candelabra

In the Indian ancient epic Ramayana (Chapter 40 Verse 53), there is a mention of, what many people believe, the Candelabra Five thousand miles miles east of "Yava" (Java) "A 3 headed golden flag shining at the top of the mountain with base at the bottom", "The structure was created by Indra to mark the eastern direction" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.33.48.77 (talk) 23:34, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

You still need reliably published sources, and as this is nonsense, you won't find any. Doug Weller talk 09:28, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

It is an absolute Nonsense to Comment 'Nonsense' on anything without knowing the sources of the claim. 14.195.41.130 (talk) 22:24, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Nonsense. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 23:06, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

The source link I gave for Valmiki Ramayana is from IIT Kanpur, a very well reputed University of India.

Ramayana is a well known, well published work, with translations in many languages.

What the claim was "there is a mention of, what many people believe". Which many people believe.

If you read the description, you will see what it is about. Of course, you do need some basic knowledge of the story context. Would you the same for some such 'many believe' for Greek works?

And here is the latest talk by Nilesh Oak also mentioning this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHLaP7g1SaA&t=60s

Can we put the reference back, please? Shashi (talk) 01:28, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Oak is an chemical engineer, right? No qualifications in anything else? In any case, if you can convince people at WP:RSN maybe. But we never use Creationists as proof of anything but their beliefs, and that goes for anyone who takes their religious myths or texts as literally true. So please don't come back without having gone to RSN with your source and the text you want to add. Doug Weller talk 10:00, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Hi Doug,

1. No one is claiming this as being the textbook truth 'yet'. It is a new interpretation being looked at. Ramayana and Mahabharata are considered epics, narrative based on historic events, told in a story form. They are indeed used by academia to get ideas about the geography, culture, custom, food, dress, administration of its time. They are not mere concoctions or 'religious' in the sense of the Bible or Koran.

2. The exact text of Ramayana is not in doubt. It is extremely well published ancient work, translated in many languages, though when translating in non-Indic languages, many times the translator do a single word translation and loose other meanings. Sanskrit words, like Greek or Latin can have many shades of meanings.

3. In the article, the addition was with the disclaimer as 'many people believe'. It was not claimed as accepted academic truth taught in textbooks.

4. This is such an extremely fascinating find, it should be included in Wiki, the great repository of knowledge.

5. As for Oak being just an engineer etc, that is not the point. The text is openly available. And any well intended interpretations should at least find mention in Etcetera.

6. If this was found in some Greek or Roman text, world would erupt in joy or surprise, not classifying it as religious but historic. Indian source are only as religious as the Greeks or Romans. Ramayana is of the ancient time period, not of modern day 'corrupted' forms.

Why should we deny readers of this fascinating material?

Isn't this how new things are found? This is indeed an exciting view.

Thanks,

Shashi

PS: I hope you see my point. This is not fringe. This is not sockpuppetry. Shashi (talk) 11:34, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

WP:NOT. I already mentioned WP:RS. I think you don’t understand what kind of encyclopaedia we are. Doug Weller talk 20:39, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

I am trying to understand in which part you have a problem:

1. Ramayana is not a reliable source, for what it says?

2. Oak saying thus is not reliable?

3. The link I provided for Ramayana text is not reliable?

Also, as I mentioned earlier, this is a new interpretation, and there are links to Oak's talk on a very popular Indian YT channel, and he is saying this is another angle to look at things, and there is even a novel written on this theme "The Flag of Ananta" - https://www.amazon.in/Flag-Ananta-sceptics-journey-roots/dp/B0CP28DPF6/

Does Wiki not have any space for emerging voices on a topic, to be noted even as emerging voices/trends, not as established fact yet?

Thanks for your patience. Shashi (talk) 04:09, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Take this to WP:RSN. I've got nothing to add. Doug Weller talk 07:58, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 April 2024

Change "History" Section:

Edit the line "The purpose of the Candelabra's creation is also unknown.", to below:

"The purpose of the Candelabra's creation is not confirmed, but based on a research by Nilesh Oak, who is researcher and adjunct faculty at Institute of Advanced Sciences, Dartmouth, Massachusetts, USA, This symbol matches a reference in ancient Indian scripture "Ramayan" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramayana). According to which, Monkey King Sugreev asked his army to search in all directions to search for Devi Sita, the Wife of Lord Ram and clearly mentioned the details of this symbol, which marked the end of eastern direction. As written in the original Valmiki Ramayan by Sage Valmiki, this Symbol was engraved by Indra, the lord of Rains, to mark the end of Eastern direction. The detailed description of this symbol i Ramayan, including size, location and surroundings, closely matches the original symbol, as per the research, for which Nilesh claims to have used modern scientific tools"

Reference: Research published in Books by Nilesh Oak:

1. 12209 BCE Rama Ravana Yuddha (Rated 4.5 on Amazon US).

2. The Historic Rama: Indian Civilization at the End of Pleistocene.

3. One of famous related Youtube videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0Z1YDSB1IE&list=LL&index=5 Viveksh9 (talk) 12:31, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

@Viveksh9 Any scientist with a reputation among their peers can get a book published by a reliable scientific publisher. Yet Oak has to rely on publishing it himself through CreateSpace Independent Publishing Platform or through Subbu which isn't much better.[1]

There is absolutely no way we are using Oak for this sort of thing. I wish you all would stop wasting time.

Doug Weller talk 13:40, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

With respect to PAGs, is it proper/allowed/helpful to include something in the banner shell along the lines of "Self-published claims or theories by Oak (and others) that have not been presented or analyzed in reliable sources are inappropriate for this article"? Not that any of the True Believers would read anything within a Talk page banner, but it might make it easier to respond to edit requests such as the above...and the many, many more that are likely to come. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 14:02, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

@JoJo Anthrax Great idea. Maybe I can find the time but I am desperately trying to complete User talk:Doug Weller/Pinxton Castle for which I have a lot of sources. It happened again just a few minutes ago. And most of the day while I've been online. I've been fighting fires and not editing anything! Doug Weller talk 14:25, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I would do it myself, but the banner contents I have found on other Talk pages are of the standard/boilerplate variety. I assume, almost certainly correctly, that any attempt I make to add a 'homegrown' comment would break the page, trigger a locust plague, etc. But in the spirit of boldly editing (uh oh) I will investigate further... JoJo Anthrax (talk) 20:59, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Possible sources but need checking

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0153465

https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_Past_from_Above/7cdfUfxDcTsC?q=paracas+geoglyphs+candelabra&gbpv=1#f=false

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Chronology-of-the-Paracas-and-Nasca-cultures-at-the-southern-coast-of-Peru-based-on-our_fig5_259693469

https://www.worldhistory.org/article/1395/the-nazca-lines-a-lifes-work/

https://www.google.com/search?q=by+Ana+Maria+Cogorno+Mendoza&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#ip=1

https://www.hows.org.uk/personal/hillfigs/foreign/cand/candel.htm Doug Weller talk 13:00, 20 April 2024 (UTC)