Talk:Pakistan/Archive 14
Latest comment: 12 years ago by Aervanath in topic Pakistan has been characterized as "failed state" from last 4 years
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Faisal Mosque
Shouldn't there be a picture of Faisal Mosque in this article? It is, I think one of the most notable features of Pakistan. --Inlandmamba (talk) 11:01, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- We had those, but it was replaced with Badshahi Mosque in one section and with Lahore fort on the architecture section during the over haul. We added some pictures which rotate at the same place... maybe it can be added to rotate with one of these. --lTopGunl (talk) 11:12, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
Done. Added (in switch mode) a panorama to get some skyline. Replace image from Faisal Mosque if needed. --lTopGunl (talk) 11:47, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
- Question Does Pakistan have Freedom of panorama? Darkness Shines (talk) 12:44, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
- According to Commons:Freedom of panorama#Pakistan it does. Huon (talk) 13:43, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
- Good, that panorama of the mosque is really nice, it would have been a shame to lose it. Darkness Shines (talk) 13:45, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
- According to Commons:Freedom of panorama#Pakistan it does. Huon (talk) 13:43, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Bangladesh
Article makes no mention of Bangladesh genocide. Compare to Germany#Weimar Republic and Nazi Regime or Sudan#Darfur conflict. JCAla (talk) 21:33, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
- That is regularly disputed content... it'll only make the article less stable for what it's worth. And I would oppose adding such content anyway disputing its merits of WP:UNDUE and how correct it already is in that article. This would be as bad as the above suggestion. --lTopGunl (talk) 21:39, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
- "Economic grievances and political dissent in East Pakistan led to violent political tension and military repression that escalated into a civil war." Already in the article. --SMS Talk 21:41, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
- "In 1971, the West Pakistan establishment refused to honour the results of the first ever democratic elections held since the independence of Pakistan in which the East Pakistan Awami League had won. The West Pakistan establishment's refusal to abide to the election results and further economic grievances let to calls for secession on the part of East Pakistan which West Pakistan tried to counter with military repression which escalated into a civil war. Forces fighting on the side of West Pakistan have been accused by many international scholars of committing a genocide in East Pakistan." That is what happened. JCAla (talk) 22:03, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
- Well, replace "establishment" with "military administrator and former president Khan, PPP and Jamaat-i Islami". Actually, the current version is not impartial but elusive. There is no such thing as a "single POV" with regards to the genocide, it's the majority description among the most reliable sources such as Time Magazine or The Guardian. But it's not really about the term "genocide", it's about describing more appropriately what happened there. You have more sentences for some Pakistani air planes involved in the Israel wars than for what happened in Bangladesh, back then Pakistan proper. JCAla (talk) 22:23, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
- I agree with TopGun and SMSarmad that "military repression", while an euphemism, is evocative enough. I don't think anybody suggests the Pakistan Army tried to wage a campaign of extermination against the entire population of East Pakistan, so comparisons to the Holocaust are not appropriate. On the other hand, the Awami League's election victory should be mentioned as the catalyst for the military repression. How about "Economic grievances and political dissent following the East Pakistani Awami League's victory in the 1970 general election led to..."? Huon (talk) 22:34, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
- We have this, both in the history and the lede, as due. There's no more weight left for it to include more details. The main article is linked... a reader can go to that to read about it, the country has much more to include in the main article than this. And then we'll need to all the atrocities during the partition of India first, which are actually more relevant to Pakistan than these what might be more suitable in Bangladesh article (that too just with a little more detail). What happened there can easily be termed under "military repression" which is not an apologia either. --lTopGunl (talk) 22:40, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
- I have added the Awami League electoral victory per my suggestion above. I have also reverted our coverage of the Bangladesh Liberation War in the lead. We link to the article anyway, but I believe the sentence reads better when not mentioning the war's name. It becomes rather redundant otherwise. Huon (talk) 23:15, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
- @Huon, according to different genocide scholars there was a determination to find a solution to the "problem" that East Pakistan's population constituted a majority of 54 %. The West Pak military commander was quoted as saying that he'd kill 4 million people in 48 hours to find a "final" solution. JCAla (talk) 07:37, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- Don't change content when you've already asked and got no consensus. Changing first is useful when you don't know if some one will oppose or not. Huon reverted your change on the term "armed conflict". Change that after discussion. Any changes related to secession should also be made after getting a consensus now that you know you are being opposed by three editors. --lTopGunl (talk) 08:01, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- I restored the non-controversial changes which really are only a rephrasing of what Huon had agreed to. Huon didn't want the term "Bangladesh Liberation War" and replaced it with "armed conflict". "Civil war" (another term), however, is the right description, so it's a totally different term I introduced here. If you don't agree, we can take it to an impartial noticeboard. Rephrasing was more than necessary. JCAla (talk) 08:08, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- The term is not a big deal, Houn reverted it, so he can reply to that... but the rephrasing was specifically opposed here. You say it is non controversial but you just added borderline content on what was just opposed above by three editors. I opposed more details + your changes. This is not NPOV and against consensus. There was only consensus for adding the name of the party and elections. The rest is extra detail with an implying tone. --lTopGunl (talk) 08:14, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
No, the version without rephrasing is elusive and a gross mispresentation of what actually happened. You want to write Khan "faced a bitter civil war" when really he started it? Do you really think what was written represents the reliable sources? I think my rephrasing is actually quite mild compared to what is actually written in and by reliable sources:
- "The genocide in Bangladesh caught the outside observers as well as the Bengali nationalists by surprise. After all, the Bengali nationalists were essentially waging a constitutional peaceful movements for democracy and autonomy. Their only crime, as U.S. Senator Edward Kennedy observed, appeared to have been to win an election. Perhaps, the main reason behind the atrocities was to terrorize the population into submission. The military commander in charge of the Dhaka operations reportedly claimed that he would kill four million people in 48 hours and thus have a "final" solution of the Bengali problem. .... But the reason behind the genocide were not simply to terrorize the people and punish them for resistance; there were also elements of racism in this act of genocide. The Pakistan army, consisting of mainly Punjabis and Pathans, had always looked on the Bengalis as racially inferior (a non-martial, physically weak race, not interested or able to serve in the army)."
- (Teaching about genocide: issues, approaches, and resources by Samuel Totten pp. 147 ff)
- "Pakistani Lieutenant-General A.A.K. Niazi referred to the Ganges river plain - home to the majority of Bengalis and the largest city, Dhaka, as a "low-lying land of low, lying people." According to R.J. Rummel, "Bengalis were often compared with monkeys and chickens. ... The [minority] Hindus among the Bengalis were as Jews to the Nazis: scum and vermin that [had] to be exterminated." [...] The spark for the conflagaration came in December 1970, with national elections held to pave the way for a transition from military rule. The [East Pakistan] Awami League won a crushing victory [...] This gave the League a majority in the Pakistani parliament as a whole, and the right to form the next government. West Pakistani rulers, led by General Yahya Khan, saw this as a direct threat to their power and interests. After negotiations failed to resolve the impasse, Khan met with four senior generals on February 22, 1971, and issued orders to annihilate the Awami League and its popular base. From the outset, they planned a campaign of genocide. "Kill three millon [Bengalis]," said Khan, " and the rest will eat out of our hands." On March 25, the genocide was launched. [...] Working from prepared lists, death squads roamed the streets. Perhaps 7,000 people died in a single night, 30,000 over the course of a week. The terror sparked an epic flight: "it was estimated that in April some thirty milllion people [!] were wandering helplessly across East Pakistan to escape the grasp of the military".
JCAla (talk) 08:34, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- When it comes to POV, we take the consensus into consideration more than the sources... the detail is WP:UNDUE and WP:POV. West Pakistan was a single unit, you stated Punjabi rule or something? And this one is highly POV filled / cherry picked statement:
- "After a Pakistani air attack on Indian military bases in India and subsequent Indian intervention in East Pakistan the war escalated into the Indo-Pakistani War of 1971, and ultimately to the secession of East Pakistan as the independent state of Bangladesh."
- Why would Pakistan attack another country when it is facing civil war? There was a reason... it was a 'preemptive strike' as said by the sources related to the war as India was funding the liberation side, that is not mentioned. See the issues now? Another POV is "Instead they tried to impose West Pakistan's rule"... it was actually that elite's rule given that "West Pakistan" is still faces similar issues with military rule etc. --lTopGunl (talk) 08:51, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
No. Wikipedia, according to its policy, should reflect the majority position among reliable sources. And as of yet, there is no community consensus. This is the whole rephrased part as of now:
- "In 1970, Pakistan held its first ever democratic elections since the independence of Pakistan which were meant to mark a transition from military rule to democracy. After the East Pakistan Awami League won a "crushing victory", Yahya Khan and the West Pakistan ruling elite, however, refused to hand over power.[1][2] On March 25, 1971, West Pakistan's Armed Forces launched a full-scale operation targeting civilians in East Pakistan to impose the West Pakistan's military rule through military repression.[1][2] This escalated into a civil war known as the Bangladesh Liberation War.[2][3] [2] The East Pakistan Bengali Mukti Bahini forces, receiving support from India, fought against the West Pakistani military. After a West Pakistani air attack on Indian military bases in India and subsequent Indian intervention in East Pakistan the war escalated into the Indo-Pakistani War of 1971, and ultimately led to the secession of East Pakistan as the independent state of Bangladesh.[2][4]"
Replaced West Pakistan with West Pakistan's military, and mentioned Indian support, which was actually because West Pakistan's forces and militias were conducting a genocide of Pakistani Bengali Hindus (as described in the sources above). JCAla (talk) 09:28, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- How many editors opposing you will it take to convince you that you don't have to ram in the content. There's no consensus, you stated that yourself just now. That content is for the main articles where all aspects can be explained in detail. And the issues I raised are still unaddressed. --lTopGunl (talk) 09:37, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
The number of deaths (at least the range) should be mentioned in the above paragraph. The death counts range from 1 million to 3 million by most sources, and that is a huge number by any means. --Ragib (talk) 09:41, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- Are death tolls of world war II mentioned in country articles like USA, UK etc? --lTopGunl (talk) 09:54, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- Did the US Army fight its own citizens in WWII? Did the United States lose half of its territory and more than half of its citizens to an independent country in WWII? Perhaps I slept in history class while these were being taught there? :). Jokes apart, the information is significant because Pakistan lost half of its territory and half+ of its population as a result of the war. And the genocide was unique in that unlike most other genocides, the Army was targeting the country's own citizens. Hard to find another such event in history. --Ragib (talk) 10:40, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- @TopGun, well, we can take the sources and the rephrasing and bring it to the noticeboards anytime. There is not really too much content in here. How come you think the first ever democratic elections are not notable? Also, I addressed your issues. Indian support is now mentioned. And it no longer says West Pakistan's rule but instead the military's rule which is the "elite" as you mentioned. BTW, Ragib is right. JCAla (talk) 09:45, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- I'll wait for others to comment... but you've clearly been opposed on this. The burden is on you here to get a consensus to include the content. On a side note, the military forces were "Pakistani" and not "West Pakistani" (though they consisted of them, but it was Pakistan Army that fought the war). --lTopGunl (talk) 09:54, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- Comment The genocidal campaign carried out against the people of Bangladesh warrants more than a line or two. Not only were 3million people killed there were 200,000 to 400,000 women raped. This is recognized under international as attempted genocide. I believe what JCAla has written needs to be expanded upon, not cut down. Darkness Shines (talk) 10:11, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- For the record, an article on a country like India does not go into details of the notorious human rights abuses in the state of Jammu and Kashmir committed by law enforcement agencies (as reported in numerous international reliable sources; there are informative articles on some of these, check out Category:Human rights abuses in Jammu and Kashmir). Applying the same rule, whatever is going to be added in this article should be added in consideration with WP:WEIGHT and WP:DUE. This means something that states the facts and is concise, so I don't agree with your idea of "expanding" it. Mar4d (talk) 11:20, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- Some has already gotten in without due consensus. --lTopGunl (talk) 11:40, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- I do not recall India declaring war on it's own people, carrying out a genocidal campaign, getting their asses handed to them and losing half of their country. There are a bit of a difference there really. Darkness Shines (talk) 11:27, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- For the record, an article on a country like India does not go into details of the notorious human rights abuses in the state of Jammu and Kashmir committed by law enforcement agencies (as reported in numerous international reliable sources; there are informative articles on some of these, check out Category:Human rights abuses in Jammu and Kashmir). Applying the same rule, whatever is going to be added in this article should be added in consideration with WP:WEIGHT and WP:DUE. This means something that states the facts and is concise, so I don't agree with your idea of "expanding" it. Mar4d (talk) 11:20, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- RegentsPark's copy editing has made it much better now. I think this much is enough. Maybe fresh eyes on it from FAC will do some good. --lTopGunl (talk) 14:52, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- I think it's much too detailed: We have more on the events of 1970/71 than on the decades before or after, and that includes the war of 1965 which gets half a sentence. In this article we need not mention events such as the Pakistani air strikes against India or the name "Bangladesh Liberation War"; details of that kind are covered by links. Huon (talk) 15:16, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
(od) I apologize. I've been editing the article but should have looked at this discussion first. My opinion is that the creation of Bangladesh is an important event, perhaps the single most important in Pakistan's history, and deserves more than a couple of lines, perhaps, but not necessarily, even a small section of its own. On the other hand, things like genocide and details of the repression in the East are best left to sub-articles. Other than that, I agree with Huon's comment above that the entire 'Republic' section is too long. --regentspark (comment) 16:31, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- Agreement on section being too long and Support on reverting to stable version before this discussion started. September88 (talk) 19:15, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
Opposed content reintroduced
[1] Why has this been added? There's no consensus to add the genocide. --lTopGunl (talk) 17:59, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- The content was never in the article in the first place, so it is not "REINTRODUCED". Further, I didn't mention the term genocide, which is a joke in itself and an act of censorship. But when up to three million people get deliberately killed, that deserves a mention like the user Rajib and DS also said. JCAla (talk) 18:01, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, reintroduced because your previous edits were weaseling around the same... only this one having a stronger POV. SMS, regentspark, me, Mar4d and Houn have specifically opposed this with good reasons here but you only seem to be counting the two editors that agree with you. This is your fifth revert today. You should self revert and try to get a consensus here. --lTopGunl (talk) 18:12, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- I repeat, the content was never in that article before - so it was not reintroduced. I won't even bother commenting on what you think are "reverts" which in fact aren't. I will also hold my tongue on your accusations of "weaseling" but advise you to keep this on content. These are internationally agreed numbers. Again, I offer everyone to take this issue to the boards. JCAla (talk) 18:20, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- I am talking about the content. I was referring to the WP:WEASEL words. It was not directed at you, it was for the content.... edits? Take a breath. You've been reverted by yet another user. Are you convinced now that you are being opposed and there's no consensus? --lTopGunl (talk) 18:39, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- I repeat, the content was never in that article before - so it was not reintroduced. I won't even bother commenting on what you think are "reverts" which in fact aren't. I will also hold my tongue on your accusations of "weaseling" but advise you to keep this on content. These are internationally agreed numbers. Again, I offer everyone to take this issue to the boards. JCAla (talk) 18:20, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- JCLA what part of conciseness and not adding anymore material on controversial topics in previous discussions did you not understand? Especially without consensus. September88 (talk) 18:57, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
1) You added +402 text. This is not conciseness.
2) The edit is clearly pov issue, hence so many editors are debating on this and there were reverts.
So in order to avoid edit wars and conflicts lets be clear about this again. Discuss and get consensus here before adding anymore pov material, no matter how notable or neutral one editor personally think the material is. This is a fair, reasonable and useful suggestion that goes for all including me. Ok? September88 (talk) 19:58, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- The +402 edit was about the casualties (which are notable) as I said above. The +12 characters (what is it? one-two words maybe) in the rephrasing edit are not something to be reverted based on the pretext of "conciseness". And kindly answer at only one subsection because otherwise it is all getting mixed up. Thank you. Unfortunately, many editors here very easily proclaim POV, but in the case of the casualty number, yes we can discuss here first. I think regentspark already addressed many issues appropriately however. JCAla (talk) 20:32, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- Hate to be broken record but my point is simply don't make pov edits without consensus. And if you want to nitpick, I said "conciseness" and "controversial material", +402 comes in conciseness and +12 in controversial material. Plus you shouldn't have made a separate section for me if you can't keep up because both subsections are about your similar edits. Anyway glad that you somewhat got the point about consensus. September88 (talk) 21:13, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- If you want to "nitpick", then I have to tell you that your whole theory is flawed as the actual number of characters added by me where exactly +162 (the rest of the characters were part of the reference I provided) - what a threat to conciseness. And wow, what a pov issue when someone rephrases "The commencement of military rule was followed by a declaration of independence in the East on 26 March 1971 and Bengali Mukti Bahini forces, supported by India, began an armed struggle for independence." to "The East reacted with a declaration of independence on 26 March 1971 and Bengali Mukti Bahini forces, supported by India, began an armed struggle for independence in what became known as the Bangladesh Liberation War." The "peaceful demonstrations" are in the sources, the "civil unrest" isn't.
- Also, you certainly meant to say, what you consider pov edits and controversial, right. And, no editors don't need to ask for permission from certain editors to edit articles, not even Pakistan-related ones. If there is discontent with the edits, then discussions take place (as it is the case here currently) and then consensus can be sorted out. So, thanks but no thanks, I got the point about consensus long before you even typed the word. Answering in the appropriate section in a chronological order should be a given so abandon the separate section name if it confuses you. JCAla (talk) 21:27, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
to September
Kindly keep to what is being said in and by the reliable sources and do not revert peaceful demonstrations to civil unrest. Reliable sources say the following:
- "The genocide in Bangladesh caught the outside observers as well as the Bengali nationalists by surprise. After all, the Bengali nationalists were essentially waging a constitutional peaceful movements for democracy and autonomy."
- (Teaching about genocide: issues, approaches, and resources by Samuel Totten pp. 147 ff)
JCAla (talk) 18:31, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- That has POV issues. Stop beating the dead horse. If you have a suggestion or a reword, that might be some progress on this discussion. --lTopGunl (talk) 18:41, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- See my reply in above topic. September88 (talk) 19:22, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- Thats my reply to your +402 and +12 without consensus text additions [2] and [3]. Kindly don't give the false impression that you only changed a single word. September88 (talk) 20:22, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- This about the -12 revert only. The +402 were about the casualties as I said in the subsection above, and yes +12 chracters in rephrasing are not something to be reverted based on the pretext of "conciseness". And kindly answer at only one subsection because otherwise it is all getting mixed up. Thank you. JCAla (talk) 20:32, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
I don't think the term 'genocide' or even the extent of what Pakistan did in Bangladesh belongs in this article, which is, after all a summary article about Pakistan. The correct place for all that is in Bangladesh Liberation War and various other Bangladesh related articles. Let's try to stick to the main points - that East Pakistan broke away, why it broke away, and that India was involved in the process. If there were international proceedings for war crimes or genocide against the country, that would be a different matter. But, I don't think that ever happened. --regentspark (comment) 19:35, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
With regards to my discussion with September, it is about this revert of her. Sources describe a peaceful strike and peaceful protest. That should be reflected and not replaced by civil unrest for which sources have yet to be presented. Also, the declaration of independence was a "reaction". So the minor rephrasing should be restored. What's your take, regents? JCAla (talk) 19:52, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what you're getting at. "Civil unrest" covers a lot of ground but does not include armed rebellion so do we really need to underscore things with a peaceful? Gandhi's various campaigns were, for example, a type of civil unrest. The declaration of independence was in reaction to military repression. The current phrasing is actually not quite accurate since military rule was in place for quite a while. Let me take another pass at it. --regentspark (comment) 20:03, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, I think it needs clarification as the peaceful strike and peaceful protest are not really fitting into the common definition of civil unrest which is often associated with some sort of illegality. If it is desribed as "peaceful protest" why not use that term instead of putting it in some sort of unlucky category? Yes the declaration of independence was indeed in reaction to the military repression, and that should be pointed out as I did. Can you rephrase that more appropriately? JCAla (talk) 20:10, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for rephrasing, much more appropriate now. JCAla (talk) 20:13, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- Well, the strikes and protests were illegal :) which is why civil unrest is a valid term. I think we will need a very good reference if we are to use "peaceful protests" rather than "civil unrest". I've modified the text a little to better include the causality following the military operation and the included a specific reference to atrocities. More that that would be undue in this article. --regentspark (comment) 20:16, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, I think it needs clarification as the peaceful strike and peaceful protest are not really fitting into the common definition of civil unrest which is often associated with some sort of illegality. If it is desribed as "peaceful protest" why not use that term instead of putting it in some sort of unlucky category? Yes the declaration of independence was indeed in reaction to the military repression, and that should be pointed out as I did. Can you rephrase that more appropriately? JCAla (talk) 20:10, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- How were they illegal when they were ordered by the then legally elected government. See above source which explicitly states the peaceful nature of the movement. Are you ok with my last minor rephrasing? I wrote "West Pakistan's elite" since it is controversial who was "Pakistan" (in the sense of the government) since the ones had the power but the other the legal election result. West Pakistan's elite is defined as military administrator Khan, the PPP, Jaamat-i Islami and military generals. JCAla (talk) 20:20, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- I'm going to revert the second edit of yours for a couple of reasons. First, it is not West Pakistan elite but the legitimate government of Pakistan that ordered the military operation. Negotiations were ongoing between Mujibur Rehman, Bhutto, and Yahya Khan as to what sort of government would finally rule but the body that ordered the military operation was a legitimate government. The fact that it was controlled by West Pakistani 'elite' is included in the previous sentence. Second, military rule was already in effect in both East and West Pakistan therefore the purpose was not to impose military rule. The purpose of the military operation was to end the unrest and to take complete control of the province. --regentspark (comment) 20:29, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- No, it was no longer the legal government, as the elections had given the Awami League the right to form a government. Repression of legal democratic results is not legal. How about "to maintain military rule" as a compromise? JCAla (talk) 20:36, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- The Awami League may have been the moral government of the country but they were not the legal government because they were not allowed to take power. The legal government of Pakistan was still the one headed by Yahya Khan. (A parallel is the NLD party which won the 1990 elections in Burma but never formed a legal government.) That makes the protests technically illegal, though for the wrong reasons. Which is why you can't say West Pakistan elite either since these decisions came from what was the legitimate (and recognized) government of Pakistan. --regentspark (comment) 20:39, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- I don't agree. Legal maybe a topic of discussion but legitimate is truly wrong. As for the other points ... can you agree that it should say "to maintain military rule"? And the source above explicitly says "peaceful". So it should at least be "peaceful civil unrest" although that sounds quite strange, better "peaceful protest and strike" - abiding to what the sources write. Samuel Totten i. e. explicitly writes "constitutional, peaceful movement". JCAla (talk) 20:48, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- In the context of governments, legitimate means recognized. In the Pakistan case, the government continued to be recognized internationally and it was actively negotiating a transfer of power with Mujibur Rehman (though probably not in good faith as later events show). Using 'West Pakistan elite' indicates that there was a breakdown in the government, which was not the case. There is almost no question of it being less than legitimate. I believe 'civil unrest' is the correct term here because it covers strikes and work stoppages which were the dominant characteristic of the protests in Bangladesh but why don't we let others weigh in on that. Bear in mind that the section is already way too long, so concise terms will be preferable. --regentspark (comment) 21:12, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- I don't agree. Legal maybe a topic of discussion but legitimate is truly wrong. As for the other points ... can you agree that it should say "to maintain military rule"? And the source above explicitly says "peaceful". So it should at least be "peaceful civil unrest" although that sounds quite strange, better "peaceful protest and strike" - abiding to what the sources write. Samuel Totten i. e. explicitly writes "constitutional, peaceful movement". JCAla (talk) 20:48, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
@ regentspark, thanks for trying to keep article neutral. As its past midnight here, I'll review the subsection again tomorrow or so and comes with reliable sources to further discuss and rephrase atrocities and so part of it, if deemed necessary for further balance to me. Cheers. September88 (talk) 21:10, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
Casualties
I have severe doubts about the casualty figures. Firstly, I don't think we should mention casualty numbers at all in this article. There is a wide range of estimates, and explaining that range would be undue weight (also per regentspark: The casualties are much more relevant to Bangladesh than to Pakistan). Even the high estimates are on the low end of the spectrum of civil war casualties given in country articles (compare for example China, which gives casualty figures for some (civil) wars and omits them for others). Secondly, the numbers given by JCAla seem lopsided. He gives the casualties as 1 to 3 millions when the Bangladesh Liberation War article has a reference which collects various estimates from 269,000 to 3 million. The number of refugees is even worse: 30 million is more than 40% of the entire population of Bangladesh in 1971. The Liberation War article once again points to an entire list of estimates ranging from 8 to 12 million (and Pakistan's claim of less than 3 million). If we should give casualty figures at all, we should follow the sources given at the Liberation War article and not use JCAla's inflated estimates. Huon (talk) 19:46, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- These are not my estimates, these are the estimates of the reliable and academic sources given. Whether the sources cited at the other wikipedia article are truly reliable needs to be yet determined. With regards to the refugees 8 to 10 million is the number of refugees fleeing to other countries, 30 million is the number for internal refugees according to leading scholars Totten and Rummel. JCAla (talk) 19:49, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- Yes. That link redirects to this website which in turn provides references such as these:
- Obermeyer, Ziad. "Fifty Years of Violent War Deaths from Vietnam to Bosnia." British Medical Journal (2008), estimate 269,000.
- The World Handbook of Political and Social Indicators by Charles Lewis Taylor, estimate 307,013.
- Small, Melvin & Joel David Singer, Resort to Arms : International and Civil Wars 1816-1980 (1982), estimate 500,000.
- Obermeyer actually underwent peer review, unlike most other references. When estimates differ this much, providing a range of estimates as that website does seems much better than pointing to any single one. Regarding the refugees, the number of 8 to 12 million is actually from Rummel's book, Statistics of democide: genocide and mass murder since 1900 (p. 162). All I found by Totten only mentions the 10 million refugees to India, too. I could not find a reference supporting the 30 million number. Huon (talk) 21:23, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- Necrometics is run by a librarian, it is not a reliable source. The World Handbook of Political and Social Indicators Which issue? This has been in print since 1963. Rummel's book is not peer reviewed and his figures and methods are heavily critiqued. I will look at Obermeyer now, majority of sources I have read on this say 3million killed. Darkness Shines (talk) 10:35, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
- Obermeyer says Overall, we think that the estimates presented here should be viewed as conservative Hardly a good sold number then. Darkness Shines (talk) 10:45, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
- Yes. That link redirects to this website which in turn provides references such as these:
It says "thirty million" internal refugees (it means they were wandering inside East Pakistan) in the source I already provided further above in another subsection of this topic. The ten million is for those who fled to India.
- "The terror sparked an epic flight: "it was estimated that in April some thirty milllion people [!] were wandering helplessly across East Pakistan to escape the grasp of the military". (Genocide: A Comprehensive Introduction by Adam Jones)
Adam Jones is the author of the leading textbook in the field. See the quantity of academic reviews he received here. Will check your sources with regards to the casualty numbers. JCAla (talk) 10:51, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
- There are no shortage of sources which say 30 million were displaced, Century of genocide: critical essays and eyewitness accounts p245 Teaching about genocide: issues, approaches, and resources p143 Defining the horrific: readings on genocide and Holocaust in the 20th century p287 Field administration and rural development in Bangladesh p116 Undermining development: the absence of power among local NGOs in Africa p39 Darkness Shines (talk) 10:58, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
I think this very reliable source provides an informative and accurate oversight over all the major sources. It is run by the leading scholar Adam Jones:
- "The number of dead in Bangladesh in 1971 was almost certainly well into seven figures. It was one of the worst genocides of the World War II era, outstripping Rwanda (800,000 killed) and probably surpassing even Indonesia (1 million to 1.5 million killed in 1965-66)."
Even Rummel writes:
- "Some estimates of the democide [Rummel's "death by government"] are much lower -- one is of 300,000 dead -- but most range from 1 million to 3 million."
- "For month after month in all the regions of East Pakistan the massacres went on," writes Robert Payne. "They were not the small casual killings of young officers who wanted to demonstrate their efficiency, but organized massacres conducted by sophisticated staff officers, who knew exactly what they were doing. ... Not since Hitler invaded Russia had there been so vast a massacre." (Payne, Massacre, p. 29.) There is no doubt that the mass killing in Bangladesh was among the most carefully and centrally planned of modern genocides. A cabal of five Pakistani generals orchestrated the events: President Yahya Khan, General Tikka Khan, chief of staff General Pirzada, security chief General Umar Khan, and intelligence chief General Akbar Khan."
JCAla (talk) 11:11, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Overlinking/incorrect linking
"The targeting of civilians and other atrocities during this operation led to..." ← The sentence has some overlinking (FAC review suggests to remove any overlinking Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Pakistan/archive1)... the current link from "atrocities" should be removed which is pointing to the wrong article and the wikilink from "civilians" should be moved to "atrocities" which points to the right article. Watch for other repeated links too. --lTopGunl (talk) 15:19, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think it's overlinked. Also, as a friendly hint, you might have noticed that you are in violation of your IBAN as the content and links you are referring to were added by Darkness Shines. JCAla (talk) 16:25, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
- No, there's no ban on discussing content - Pseudofusulina has brought that up once and been explained to. I have not referred to anything including actions or edits. I said the sentence is overlinked currently in the article. Rape during the Bangladesh Liberation War is not discussed anywhere in the article. Wrong wikilink. --lTopGunl (talk) 16:33, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
- Well, I am not sure, but I think you two shall not react to each other or to each others edits. You are reacting to DS's edit and just termed his inclusion of the wikilink to Rape during the Bangladesh Liberation War as WP:COATRACK. Just saying. Rape is a form of atrocity. JCAla (talk) 16:54, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
- We both know it's wrongly placed.. there's already an article for atrocities. Saying "Rape is a form of atrocity" is not a justification for wikilinking that article to the word atrocities. I know the IBAN limits... IBANs are only for interaction, not content. And this is not a reaction, I'm an active participant of FAC, so let's stick to the content and not waste time and effort over the useless. --lTopGunl (talk) 17:06, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
- I agree on the overlinking. The rape article should be a subtopic of the 1971 Bangladesh atrocities article, and we need not link to both. Rather obviously the link at "atrocities" should point to the atrocities article. Linking "civilians" serves comparatively little purpose. Huon (talk) 16:55, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
- Well, I am not sure, but I think you two shall not react to each other or to each others edits. You are reacting to DS's edit and just termed his inclusion of the wikilink to Rape during the Bangladesh Liberation War as WP:COATRACK. Just saying. Rape is a form of atrocity. JCAla (talk) 16:54, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
- No, there's no ban on discussing content - Pseudofusulina has brought that up once and been explained to. I have not referred to anything including actions or edits. I said the sentence is overlinked currently in the article. Rape during the Bangladesh Liberation War is not discussed anywhere in the article. Wrong wikilink. --lTopGunl (talk) 16:33, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
- Who removed this internal? Darkness Shines (talk) 17:26, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
- Nobody, as of yet. TopGun reacted on your inclusion of the wikilink Rape during the Bangladesh Liberation War to "atrocities" and asked it to be removed and to instead move the wikilink "1971 Bangladesh atrocities" from "civilians" to "atrocities". Now you, of course, want to react to the reaction to your inclusion. As I pointed out to TopGun above, it's an unlucky situation with regards to your IBAN. Remember what happened last time and if you have possible doubts what to do ask an admin you trust before you do it. JCAla (talk) 17:37, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
- JCAla, here is a proper explanation by ANI on this. So please stop implying this as a reaction. Everyone is free to discuss any content regardless. It is being done at many other articles without any objection. You can read WP:IBAN and then this thread at ANI about this. Stop dragging me into this. If you have issues based on its own merits then present them here. --lTopGunl (talk) 17:43, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry, in your link I can't find where Pseudof says anything close to what you insinuate. I see you directly asking for the removal of a link added by Darkness Shines. Look, I don't really care, but I review DS's article and want to continue working on it with him, but you reacting might provoke a reaction which might lead to blocks which is disturbing the review and work on other articles. JCAla (talk) 17:52, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
- See the discussion on Talk:Anti-Pakistan sentiment and other such articles, content added by me is still being discussed. It is not a ban violation to discuss any content in the article. And it is not even remotely related to other article reviews although when you started this section right after I nominated for FAC, there's been some hindrance here. I will not comment further on the IBAN discussion because it is hindering the original content discussion here, which is disruptive. --lTopGunl (talk) 18:01, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry, in your link I can't find where Pseudof says anything close to what you insinuate. I see you directly asking for the removal of a link added by Darkness Shines. Look, I don't really care, but I review DS's article and want to continue working on it with him, but you reacting might provoke a reaction which might lead to blocks which is disturbing the review and work on other articles. JCAla (talk) 17:52, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
- JCAla, here is a proper explanation by ANI on this. So please stop implying this as a reaction. Everyone is free to discuss any content regardless. It is being done at many other articles without any objection. You can read WP:IBAN and then this thread at ANI about this. Stop dragging me into this. If you have issues based on its own merits then present them here. --lTopGunl (talk) 17:43, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
- Nobody, as of yet. TopGun reacted on your inclusion of the wikilink Rape during the Bangladesh Liberation War to "atrocities" and asked it to be removed and to instead move the wikilink "1971 Bangladesh atrocities" from "civilians" to "atrocities". Now you, of course, want to react to the reaction to your inclusion. As I pointed out to TopGun above, it's an unlucky situation with regards to your IBAN. Remember what happened last time and if you have possible doubts what to do ask an admin you trust before you do it. JCAla (talk) 17:37, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
- These links have yet to be fixed, some body please fix the linking. --lTopGunl (talk) 18:01, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
Pakistan has been characterized as "failed state" from last 4 years
POV tag, why
Apart from the fact hat the internal links I had added have been removed why on earth has the entire Bangladesh section been relegated to few lines? Darkness Shines (talk) 17:46, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
- I have explained above why I thought one of the internal links was redundant to the other, and I have no idea what you mean about the shortening of the "Bangladesh section". It is one of the longest paragraphs of the history section, more detailed than any other event including the formation of Pakistan itself. Was it even longer? I don't think so (at least not significantly so), and I don't think it should be, either. It could probably even be shortened a bit without losing significant details. If there is a particular edit you object to, could you please provide a diff? Do you think relevant facts are not sufficiently covered by the current version? Which ones? Huon (talk) 21:36, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
- I removed the tag. Insufficient coverage in one section should be handled with a {{Expand section}} tag rather than putting a neutrality template. Also, it may be better to take this up at the FAC than here, so FAC voters can be brought up to speed on potential issues. Mark Arsten (talk) 04:47, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
- Is this the correct page to discuss it?[41] Darkness Shines (talk) 14:49, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, I think that would be best. I have not been following any of the discussions about this page and I don't have an opinion on this coverage, but WP:WIAFA does require pages to be "comprehensive". Mark Arsten (talk) 16:06, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
- Is this the correct page to discuss it?[41] Darkness Shines (talk) 14:49, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
- ^ a b Jones, Adam (2004). Genocide: A Comprehensive Introduction. Routledge. p. 420. ISBN 978-0415353847.
- ^ a b c d e Jahan, R. (2004). Samuel Totten (ed.). Teaching about genocide: issues, approaches, and resources. Information Age Publishing. pp. 147–148. ISBN 978-1-59311-074-1.
- ^ "1971 war summary". BBC. 2002. Retrieved 16 March 2009.
- ^ Cite error: The named reference
congresswas invoked but never defined (see the help page).