Talk:PNC Park/Archive 1

attendance

second largest crowd: 39,129 (April 10, 2006)

obviously this includes 'standing room only'

It's not the smallest park in baseball. Fenway Park has added seats and McAfee Coliseum in Oakland stopped selling seats in the upper deck (it's now technically the smallest park in baseball).

Homers into the Alleghany

Removed Cliff Floyd hitting the river on the fly. He actually made it on a bounce, prompting a lot of good-natured ribbing from Daryle Ward, his current teammate on the Cubs.

Yeah, a few have bounced one in. The only player that I know about, to do it on the fly, is Daryle Ward (on a grand-slam too). With the exception of the Home Run Derby of course. Blackngold29 (talk) 15:33, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Neutral POV on "Features"

The "Features" section of this this article is not very neutral. See below:

PNC Park is noted for its beautiful look. The low, open-air infield stands offer a wide, breathtaking view of the downtown Pittsburgh skyline across the Allegheny River. The interior walls and backstop behind home plate are made of limestone, a departure from the red-brick walls present in most of today's newer ballparks. The limestone captures the city's trademark "gold" color while also representing the rugged local landscape. Also prevalent throughout the ballpark is the use of steel construction, a tribute to Pittsburgh's history in the steel industry. The spiraling rotunda in left field, which allows access to the various concourse levels via escalators and stairs, employs this the best. All of the concourses are open-air except for the Pittsburgh Baseball Club section, meaning fans can still watch the game and even enjoy the riverfront view when standing in line at concessions stands. A 2003 ESPN study gave the park a 95 rating (out of 100), making it "the best stadium in baseball", a moniker the stadium has openly adopted since.

PNC Park is also notable for having some of the best food of any Major League venue.[1] The ballpark features an extensive selection of local specialities and favorites, including pierogies, Primanti Brothers sandwiches (serving meat, cole slaw, and french fries within the sandwich), Quaker Steak and Lube, Benkovitz Fish, Smorgasburgh, Pop's Plaza (named for Willie Stargell), a barbecue run by former catcher Manny Sanguillen (who signs autographs while fans wait in line), as well as "Outback in the Outfield," an Outback Steakhouse at the top of the left-field bleachers.

This section sounds like a persuasive essay.

75.182.106.197 20:02, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I've gotta say, though, that is a widely held opinion among most fans and analysts either from or outside of the city. It has been called the best stadium in baseball numerous times (regrettably, arguably fielding the absolute worst team). I agree though that the food section is a very biased Pittsburgh opinion. Anyone who knows the menu that well has to be from here. User: lawrence142002 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.95.250.122 (talk) 07:50, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

= I went ahread and edited the POV parts out, it was clearly written by a Pittsburgh fan, not an unbiased editor...regardless of whether fans think the stadium and its food are the 'best', it's not cited, and really can't be cited as fact. It's all a matter of opinion, or Point Of View. 162.136.192.1 (talk) 19:18, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Seating capacity vs other parks?

The article says that PNC is the second-smallest, only a few thousand smaller than Wrigley, which seats over 40,000, but makes no mention of Fenway, which is also smaller than Wrigley (less than 40,000). Why compare it to Wrigley at all, when Fenway is much closer in capacity? Also, Tropicana Field's page shows a capacity of 38496, which is MORE than PNC's 38437,so isn't PNC the smallest? 162.136.192.1 (talk) 19:09, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

There are a few sources which state upon opening it had the second smallest. This has changed since other stadims have added on or covered/removed seats. It is difficult to keep up with all stadiums because they are constantly changing and capacity figures, and they differ from source to source. I included only what the sources give. Blackngold29 (talk) 15:28, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:PNCParkLogo150.PNG

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BetacommandBot (talk) 15:50, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Somebody has added one. Done. Blackngold29 (talk) 15:29, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Re-write

The article is in need of an overhaul. There is a lot of good information present, however very little is sourced and it is very unorganized. I am going to start a re-vision in my sandbox, contribution, big or little would be much appreciated. Thanks! Blackngold29 (talk) 21:06, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I completely overhauled the article. Though it could still use a few minor improvements, please make any changes or leave anything else you would like me to add on here on on my talk page. Thank you! Blackngold29 (talk) 19:09, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Would it be worth adding a blurb about the college baseball games played at PNC? Pitt and Duquesne have typically played the annual baseball version of the City Game there. The previous games have been:

• 4/16/08 Pitt 17, Duquesne 6 [1][2]
• 4/18/07 Cancelled due to poor field conditions
• 4/13/05 Pitt 9, Duquesne 2 [3]
• 5/12/04 Pitt 5, Duquesne 1 [4][5]
• 5/6/03 Duquesne 2, Pitt 1 (first college game at PNC)[6] CrazyPaco (talk) 05:37, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

That's a good idea, although it may be difficult to find sources enough to write a good paragraph. I see here that it was the first collegate baseball game to be played there, that is definately worth adding. If you have any more sources let me know and we type something up. For now I'll add it to the "Fists" section. Thanks!Blackngold29 (talk) 15:39, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I added some refs above to PG articles about the games, the Trib archive may have some too.CrazyPaco (talk) 05:26, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Cool, I'll see what I can do. Blackngold29 (talk) 12:39, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Comments from Scartol

Well done on the rewrite! The references are very thorough, and you've got a lot of good information here. I don't know if it's quite up to GA status yet, but I also don't know what to suggest about how to improve it. I'd say depth is the number one concern – it seems to me that a stadium of this importance should have more detailed information about the construction and maintenance processes, community impact (see below), and so forth. At the same time, I understand that it's a (relatively) young field, and this information may not be available yet.

Here are some more specific comments; I hope they're useful.

• All 23 labor unions were involved in the building process... The first part of this sentence is unclear. Are these all the labor unions in the city? Or are you referring to the unions which represent the workers involved in the park's construction? Please clarify. Y Blackngold29 18:31, 20 April 2008 (UTC) This was misread by me, fixed.

• Kansas-based HOK Sport was hired to design the stadium. Was there a bidding process? Why was this company chosen? This is a good spot for more detail. On the other hand, I don't know that naming the Architect of Record is necessary. (Unless you tell us some info on why they're notable.) Y Blackngold29 19:25, 21 April 2008 (UTC) Removed AoR, it seems to be standard in the infobox however, so I left it there.

• I'd vote to eliminate the "Plan B" and "Additions" headings. The content is good, but those paragraphs can be included in the main "Planning and construction" and "Design and groundbreaking" sections, respectively. Too many subheads makes things choppy and less fluid. Y Blackngold29 18:25, 20 April 2008 (UTC) Removed, altered, and moved headings

• Can you explain what the "all-you-can-eat section" is? A buffet? Who puts it on? This seems like it would fit in better earlier in the section, with the other mentions of food providers. Y Blackngold29 00:22, 20 April 2008 (UTC) Moved and expanded

• What is an "out-of-town scoreboard"? Sorry for my ignorance of things sports-related.Y Blackngold29 00:37, 20 April 2008 (UTC) Expanded.

• If Jim Caple called the park "perfect", how can he give it 95/100? This doesn't compute to me. If the ticket prices are too high, then it's not perfect, right? Maybe he called the facilities perfect? Y Blackngold29 18:31, 20 April 2008 (UTC) Clarified.

• Given the emphatic criticism of the park's cost, I'm surprised there isn't any information about the economics of the park. Has it helped the local economy or not? Surely there's been some research into its net effect on the community. Y Blackngold29 20:25, 21 April 2008 (UTC) Found basic info, looking for more in-depth, will add soon

• I'd like to see the "firsts" section written in paragraph form, rather than as a list. See Wikipedia:Embedded list for more info. Y Blackngold29 00:12, 20 April 2008 (UTC) Created paragraph, added info about college games.

• I've already fixed it, but please note the following, for future reference: The stadium also hosted the Century 21 Home Run Derby the previous evening, Ryan Howard won the title hitting 23 home runs. This is called a comma splice, since it has two independent clauses separated only by a comma. A semicolon is required (or it should be split into two sentences, or rewritten to include a conjunction). Y Blackngold29 00:32, 20 April 2008 (UTC) Thanks, I'll keep that in mind.

Good luck with the article, and please let me know if you have any questions. – Scartol • Tok 15:48, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

"Best Stadium in Baseball"?

Is the "Best Stadium in Baseball" subtitle above the top image really just because one guy on ESPN called it that? Am I missing something? —Wknight94 (talk) 02:37, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

That alone would kill its GA chances. Totally subjective and unprovable. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 02:41, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I have wondered the same thing. It's been here since before I showed up. I'm sure I've seen that somewhere before, but I can't think of where; ever since the ESPN article came out the Pirates have used it for promotion. I will replace it with "Home of the Pittsburgh Pirates" since that's what it says on the front of the building. Thanks. Blackngold29 02:45, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Huh? Looks like you added it with this edit. —Wknight94 (talk) 02:48, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Wow, I seriously don't remember that. This is one of the first article I worked on and I wasn't exactly "up to snuff" with all the policies when I started. I promise to learn from my mistake. EDIT: It was in the prose when I got here, still dumb on my part. Blackngold29 03:05, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

How did I miss that in my GA review? Yikes. Ice Cold Beer (talk) 06:04, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Drinking too much of your user ID? :) Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 07:03, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Location

The ballpark's location, respective to that of Expo Park, can be found various places, although the citation doesn't quite cover it. It's obviously "inferred" by both the photo and the general location, that the two sites are in the same general vicinity. Part of the trouble in tracking it down precisely is that the city has messed around with the streets in that area so much over the years. Marc Okkonen's 1992 book, Baseball Memories 1900-1909, places the old ballpark's grandstand at the southwest corner of South (a.k.a. Ann) Street to the north and School (a.k.a. Scotland) Street to the east. Grant (a.k.a. Galveston) Street is some distance to the west of the right field fence. Federal Street is shown as several blocks upriver from the Expo Park site. South of the ballpark (left field) were railroad tracks and then the Allegheny River. Perhaps those who know Pittsburgh better can more precisely place that location relative to the current stadiums? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 05:10, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

In this article it states: The Pittsburgh franchise, known appropriately as the Burghers, built a new ballpark near Recreation Park, again called Exposition Park (or Expo III) located about two blocks from where PNC Park stands today. That should cover it, it's actually closer than I thought. Blackngold29 05:17, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I've replaced the Pirates site citation with the above mentioned PPG article and an additional one. They were both more specific about the location. Blackngold29 05:30, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, they give something close to the correct location as well as a nice capsule history of the Pirates franchise - useful in case anyone wonders who Barney Dreyfuss was and why he was voted into the Hall of Fame this year. Forbes Field used to have a Dreyfuss monument in straightaway center. I wonder whatever happened to it? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 05:34, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

The only thing that I know of left of Forbes is the left field section that Maz hit the WS winning homer over; it hasn't been moved. They probably should've moved that statue over next to it. Blackngold29 05:38, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I've seen the Forbes wall remnants, in fact you'll see the picture I took if you go to the Forbes Field page. The 457 and 436 signs remain. When the Pirates moved to Three Rivers, they sliced a section of the left field wall containing the 406 sign and installed it in a bar there called the Allegheny Club or some such. I made some inquiries at the time of the impending demolition of Three Rivers, and no one seemed to know what had happened to that piece of the wall. As for the Dreyfuss monument, maybe it was stashed somewhere, maybe it was stolen when fans ran on the field at the final game (a fate similar to the Eddie Grant monument in the Polo Grounds) or maybe it's in plain sight somewhere and I just don't know about it. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 05:45, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

That deep left center corner of the wall that still stands not only sported the flagpole, but also the batting cage, which they stuck out in that corner, facing away from the infield of course. It's amazing the stuff they had in fair territory in the old days. Even aside from letting fans on the field behind ropes, a practice which continued until around 1950, the various ballparks had flagpoles, monuments, light tower stands, terraces (and not just in Cincinnati), unpadded brick or concrete walls, stairways, bullpen benches (at the Polo Grounds), batting cages, storm sewer drains, and of course monuments, all on the playing field - and no warning tracks until the 1950s, in general. Much is made of Yankee Stadium's monuments (which are now off the playing field), but they also had monuments in play at the Polo Grounds and Forbes Field and who knows where else. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 05:51, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

If you want to get a good look at Forbes Field, look for a film called Angels in the Outfield (1951 film). All of the park's classic lines are nicely on display, including the Dreyfuss monument. That film was on TV a couple of months ago, maybe on AMC. We're getting a bit off-topic here, but I wonder if an article that lists ballparks used in films would be of any use? Maybe I'll just start it and see what happens. d:) Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 06:10, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

On that note, PNC Park was in Chasing 3000 which looks really good, but I don't think it's had a wide release yet. Blackngold29 06:13, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I started the article, and I'm thinking it's maybe too much ground to cover, but we'll see what others think of it, if anything. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 07:02, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

What's it called exactly? Blackngold29 07:06, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

It's List of baseball parks used in film and television and it's obviously too late at night as I should have posted it the last time. It got me to thinking that this could expand to football stadiums and other arenas and then it sounded overwhelming. I already know of lots more things I could add to just this article, and I wonder if it's better to just keep that stuff in the separate articles or maybe create a category - hey, there's an idea. Then there's the reference issue - not enough of the individual articles actually "prove" that these ballparks were used, even though those of us who know can recognize them right away. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 07:33, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Statue

I liked the old picture of the Honus Wagner statue better. However, maybe that picture would be better suited for the Honus article, vs. the photo that's there now. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 14:49, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

It was a little more focused, but I hated how the P in PNC Park was cut off. Blackngold29 15:09, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I installed the previous picture in the Wagner article. The focus of the ballpark article probably should be the ballpark. Now if only I could find a photo of the Wagner statue at Forbes. I'm pretty sure I've seen one, but I can't recall where. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 15:11, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I was thinking when I wrote that paragraph that if we could get a picture of the statue at Forbes, Three Rivers and PNC it would be cool to see, even if it went in his article or something. Blackngold29 15:25, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I added a new picture of the park at night, I think it was needed because it's really the only picture of the building itself. The shots taken from behind homeplate, while very nice pictures, are as much of the city skyline as the park. I was hoping to find a very good picture of one of the statues, there are many great shots of the Wagner one on Flickr, but none under a free license. I'll keep looking, I guess. Blackngold29 18:39, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Or you could go there and take one. If that's practical. :) Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 18:48, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

This one [7] from this site [8] is from nearly the same angle as my Wagner / Three Rivers photo. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 18:55, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I planned on taking one a few weeks ago, but there was too many people and not enough time. I'd love to get something like this. Maybe I'll see if anyone over at the WP:Pittsburgh could get one, hmm. Blackngold29 18:59, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I uploaded a two new pics of the Roberto Clemente statue. Head and Full body. Anyone think they're better than the Honus one? Blackngold29 04:00, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Dreyfuss

Here's one site with a picture of the Dreyfuss monument, which was obviously saved and stashed somewhere. [9] Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 20:44, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Another part of the site talks of it being at Three Rivers, in the present tense, so it's hard telling where it ended up. [10] Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 20:49, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Fixes to the lead

I think the lead needs some revision. Right now, it includes some information that is really not notable enough to be included in a lead. Most of the bones I have to pick are with the last paragraph, which just seems like a big collection of information that is merely meant to touch on every subsection of the article (which is not necessarily the intention of a lead!).

As it stands now: As of 2008, the park features the second-smallest seating capacity and the third-cheapest average ticket prices of any MLB stadium. The ballpark also features several local eateries and an all-you-can-eat seating section, which allows fans unlimited food for an entire game. The park has helped attract business to surrounding establishments, though the Pirates have not had a winning season since they moved to the stadium. PNC Park hosted the 2006 Major League Baseball All-Star Game, the fifth MLB All-Star Game held in Pittsburgh. The field is natural grass with the outfield fence ranging from distances of 320 feet (98 m) to 399 feet (122 m) away from home plate; the Allegheny River is 443 feet (135 m) from home plate. Since completion, it has been hailed as one of the best ballparks in the country.

First of all, telling me the field dimensions/fence distances in this format really is not useful at all. In fact, pretty much every baseball park in the majors can claim the fences range from 320-399 ft. This is inherent of modern Major League ballparks. Also, if field dimensions are going to be explained in a manner for it is useful information, you would want to tell me the distances to the fences in left, left-center, center, right-center, and right (but this is overkill for a lead). Otherwise, it's just a wasteful attempt to tell me the fences vary in distance. As for the information on the local eateries and all-you-can-eat section - do you really need to emphasize this in the lead? Is this a notable enough part of the ballpark that it should be discussed on its own? Maybe you want to say, "the ballpark has many features, including a riverside concourse, a port for river transportation, a distinct steel rotunda, and many local eateries." The only other part of the article I tried to change was the organization of certain information. I wanted to move the "best ballpark in the country" sentence to the beginning of the paragraph, in order to preview that the last paragraph is about the impact of the ballpark being built in Pittsburgh (impact on neighborhood, attracting All-Star Game to it in 5th year of existence). I think all of these changes I would like to make have merit and I would ask you to consider them above the current version of the lead. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 03:36, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

First off, it is a ballpark, just because concerts are hosted there does not make it a stadium. It is possible to hold a concert at a ballpark. Unless you can cite a source that specifically states it is "not a ballpark" then it should be called one. Three Rivers Stadium was a stadium because it was design for mulitple events. Second, you call the fence distances "not useful at all". That is your opinion. You are most likely someone who has knowledge of baseball—you certainly sound like it—just because this info isn't useful to you, does not mean it is irrelevant to somebody who has never heard of baseball before. We're trying to make this article accessible to everyone. Per WP:LEAD, all sections should be touched on in the intro. If you have suggestions—of info that is actually included in the article—then I would certainly be willing to debate it. I will openly admit that leads are my weak point, but the info needs to be relevant to the article. Blackngold29</font::> 03:46, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand why one would not consider this a stadium. Per the Wikipedia article on stadiums, a stadium is is a place, or venue, for (mostly) outdoor sports, concerts or other events, consisting of a field or stage partly or completely surrounded by a structure designed to allow spectators to stand or sit and view the event. Doesn't really sound like you can argue with that much. PNC Park was designed for baseball, that's not debatable. But it has other uses! The ballpark isn't just completely vacated and unused in the six month offseason of MLB, nor does it just host baseball games from April to September. Hence, calling it just a baseball park is not taking the entire scope of this article or the venue's usage into account.

You also said the information needs to be relevant to the article - well, that's certainly true. But just because it is in the article does not mean it needs to be in the lead. Like I said before, all modern baseball parks have dimensions like PNC Park and simply saying they span 320 - 399 feet is not specific enough to actually be informative. They are listed in detail in the infobox - in that case, telling me the dimensions for left, left-center, center, right-center, and right is very helpful. But simply saying 320-399 tells me nothing about how the fences are organized within that range. It is simply not notable enough for the lead.

Are there any other problems with what I have proposed doing with the last paragraph (e.g. see my reverted edits for all the changes I wanted to make)? Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 04:03, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Did you read the article on baseball park? As far as I know, yes, PNC Park is "completely vacated and unused in the six month offseason of MLB". There have been concerts there, but that doesn't automatically make it "not a ballpark". If I'm wrong please present some evidence that it is "not a ballpark". One's opinion (yours, mine, Jimmy Whales) does not matter here, only reliable sources. So unless you have a reliable source that states it is "not a ballpark" it should state that it is. People are smart enough to understand that it is used for the concert on rare occasion.

The problem I have with your proposal of the lead is that you are just removing info, you aren't replacing it with anything or suggesting an alternate. As WP:LEAD states, all sections should be covered. By taking out the info about the fence distances, you are removing coverage of a section that needs it. If you have a suggestion of something else in the "playing surface..." section that could be covered in the lead, I would love to hear it. Blackngold29 04:13, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't see anywhere in the WP:LEAD article that says every subsection of the article needs to be mentioned in the lead. If that were the case, we would needlessly have a sentence about the stadium's statues, which really has no reason to be mentioned in the lead. WP:LEAD says a lead should summarize the most important points and should stand on its own as a concise version of the article. It also mentions relative emphasis on certain information being mentioned in the lead. Removing information from the lead does not necessarily means it needs to be replaced with something. In fact, in this case, I would say your insisting that something from the "Playing surface and park dimensions" subsection needs to replace the field dimensions indicates that that section might not necessarily need to be its own subsection and might be better off incorporated into another section. Or.... we could mention that the playing surface is natural grass in my proposed edit to the lead:

PNC Park is a baseball park located in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. It is the fifth home baseball park for the Pittsburgh Pirates, the city's Major League Baseball (MLB) franchise. It opened during the 2001 Major League Baseball season, after the controlled implosion of the Pirates' previous home, Three Rivers Stadium. The ballpark is named for locally based PNC Financial Services, which purchased the naming rights in 1998. PNC Park features a natural grass playing surface and seats 38,496 people for baseball, which as of 2008, is the second-smallest capacity of any Major League park.

Funded in conjunction with Heinz Field, the $216 million park stands along the Allegheny River, on the Northside of Pittsburgh with a view of Downtown Pittsburgh. Plans to build a new stadium for the Pirates originated in 1991, but did not come to fruition for five years. Built in the style of "classic" stadiums, such as Boston's Fenway Park, PNC Park also introduced unique features, such as the use of limestone in the building's facade. The park also features a riverside concourse, a port for river transportation, a distinct steel rotunda, and many local eateries. Constructed quicker than most modern stadiums, workers built PNC Park in a 24-month span.

Since completion, PNC Park has been hailed as one of the best ballparks in the country. It has the third-cheapest average ticket prices of any MLB stadium and has helped attract business to surrounding establishments since it opened, though the Pirates have not had a winning season since they moved to the stadium. PNC Park hosted the 2006 Major League Baseball All-Star Game, the fifth MLB All-Star Game held in Pittsburgh. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 04:38, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I like all of your suggestions except a riverside concourse, a port for river transportation, a distinct steel rotunda, and many local eateries. Only the eateries are mentioned in the article. The rest of them would need cited and/or elaborated on in the article somewhere. I have never heard of this "riverside port" you are referring to, I know boats travel across the river for fans, but I don't recall any port being related to the park. Could we eliminate or alter that sentence somehow? The other changes are excellent. Blackngold29 04:48, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I might be describing it wrong, but the fact that boats and ferries provide waterfront transportation to the game is what I was trying to discuss. I don't know if the few small docks that are there constitute a port, but, yeah, we can clarify that if need be. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 04:53, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

We would need to cite it to a reliable source as well. I think it would be easier to say something like The ballpark also features steel truss work, an extensive out-of-town scoreboard, and many local eateries. How's that? Blackngold29 04:58, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Just added "steel truss work, out-of-town scoreboard" and removed any mention of river transportation for now. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 05:03, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

If we could find a cite for it, it would probably be something interesting to have, but I would probably wait until the FAC is done to make many more changes. But overall, I think the lead looks much better. Great work! Blackngold29 05:05, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Statues section?

Can someone explain why there needs to be a section dedicated to the statues, and why there is a history behind the statues that precedes PNC Park? It's fine to say the statues once resided at Three Rivers Stadium, but there is no reason to give a detailed history behind each one's unveiling at previous stadiums. This is an article about PNC Park - not the statues themselves! Furthermore, I can find no peer review on the talk page that indicates this section on statues is absolutely essential. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 22:57, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

The idea for that section was brought up here so I proceded to write it. To my knowledge nobody, including the FA reviewers, had a problem with it. I agree that their relevence to PNC Park might not be huge, which is the reason that I didn't initially include anything about them. However, due to their locations they are a unique and noticable part of any visit to the Park. I could have gone into more detail about their unveilings, but throught that it would make sense to include all of that info here and not spread it out (Wagner on Forbes Field, etc.) so it's pretty basic stuff. blackngold29 23:09, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

But most of that information, like the details about the Wagner's statue's unveiling in the 1950's and Wagner's reaction has nothing to do with PNC Park. It's not relevant to this article. Wikipedia is not "an indiscriminate collection of information" (WP:NOT). It's perfectly fine to mention the statues in passing and say they were moved from Three Rivers Stadium over to PNC, but any more detail than that is not notable enough to mention, not to mention a subsection in the "History" section is a little overboard. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 03:33, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Each article should also be "nearly self-contained" (WP:TPA). It's true that the history of the statue doesn't have much to do with PNC Park itself, but the statue is seen by the majority of the people that visit it, so I don't see it as too much to give a breif history of it. I really don't think three or four sentences about the statues unveiling is going overboard, when there's enough info out there that three paragraphs could be easily written about it (Wagner's biography has multiple pages about it). If the article were to simply state that it was "moved from Three Rivers" then the Three Rivers article should state that it was "moved from Forbes" and by doing that it forces someone who is interested in the topic to read through three articles, when three sentences here can cover it. At about 47,000 bytes this article is well within length guidelines and doesn't have any major gaps, so I don't anticipate adding anything soon; that section is not making anything too long. blackngold29 03:48, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm not saying you can't talk about the statues' histories, but you certainly shouldn't keep the level of detail that is in there now. Right now, the article talks about the park's opening in 2001 and how it has been hailed as one of the best in MLB. Right after that, the narrative jumps to 1947, talking about a Pirates manager wanting a statue for Honus Wager, and then Wagner's reaction when it is unveiled in 1955. I stress that this is not relevant to PNC Park at all, and does not belong in this article. The article is talking about PNC Park's public opinion in 2001, and then jumps back 54 years to give an account of where the first statue came from. Without some of these details, the article is still self-contained because you don't need a detailed understanding of the statues' histories to comprehend this article as a whole. I think my proposed changes were fine (eliminating subsection for statues, moving the prose to the end of the construction section):

“ Statues of Pirates legends Honus Wagner, Roberto Clemente, and Willie Stargell were placed at various points outside of PNC Park. Wagner and Clemente's statues were previously located outside of Three Rivers Stadium, and after the venue was imploded, the two statues were removed from their locations, refurbished, and relocated outside PNC Park. Wagner's statue was originally unveiled at Forbes Field in 1955. The base of Clemente's statue is shaped like a baseball diamond, with dirt from three of the fields Clemente played at — Santurce Field in Carolina, Puerto Rico, Forbes Field, and Three Rivers Stadium — at each base. On October 1, 2000, after the final game at Three Rivers Stadium, Stargell threw out the ceremonial last pitch. He was then presented with a model of a statue that was to be erected in his honor outside of PNC Park. The statue was officially unveiled on April 7, 2001; however, Stargell did not attend due to health problems and died of a stroke two days later. ”

Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 13:30, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I slightly changed some of your wording, but overall that seems like a fair compromise. The info is now at the end of the construction section. It's a shame we can't get pictures of those (apparently it's a copyright vio), but I like having the info there because not many stadiums have such nice statues. Thanks! blackngold29 16:01, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

The photos of the statues are a copyright violation? Interesting - why is that? Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 16:20, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I guess the sculptor of the statues holds the copyright for quite a while. I tried to argue that the guy who sculpted the Wagner statue is dead, and probably wouldn't mind, but I guess his estate or something still holds it. I guess we'll just have to wait a few hundred years, lol. blackngold29 16:25, 17 March 2009 (UTC)