Talk:Ottoman family tree

Three mothers

Thank you BomBom, good work. However maternal side of Ottoman sultans is always debateble. I compared this article with the article List of Ottoman Sultans and the individual articles about the sultans. The result:

Sultan	This article	List of Ottoman Sultans	Articles about the sultans
Bayezid II	Gülbahar	Mükrime	Gülbahar
Mustafa I	Handan	(unknown)	Handan
Mustafa IV	Nüketseza	Seniye Perver	Seniye Perver

I hope somebody clarifies the subject. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 19:40, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Not Ottoman family

Why is Ataturk shown in this Ottoman family tree? He is in no way related and needs to be removed. --Kansas Bear (talk) 02:54, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Absolutly...what is this?

Mustafa has nothing to do with the Ottoman Dynasty Family Tree...

I delete it

Dilek2 (talk) 20:06, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

I wan't removed it...But can't

please help me...Thanky.

Dilek2 (talk) 20:24, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

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Osman I's mother

Osman I's mother is know. There are plenty of books and sources out there. Whether there are discrepancies is another matter. Why ignore facts and leave information out with a silly "unknown"? 176.33.53.10 (talk) 19:23, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

A confusion that arises is Ertugrul might have had two wives. But we know Osman's mother. 176.33.53.10 (talk) 19:25, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

I'm reposting this here: There is NO reliable ORIGINAL source that tells us who Osman's mother was, so she is NOT "known." There is NO mention of a "Halime" as Ertugrul's wife or Osman's mother in any single one of the Ottoman chronicles. All later tales of Halime and Hayme are based on myths created centuries later, in the last century to be specific. The tomb in Sogut was placed there by Sultan Abdulhamid without any knowledge of who was being reburied there. It was nameless until relatively recently. If we have a scholar stating something, we need to see *their* citations too. The Lowry text cites two additional sources, one a Turkish scholar, for the "Unknown" in reference to Osman's mother. None of the academics who mention Halime or Hayme as the potential mother of Osman give any citations, as there are none. The Pierce text absolutely does not mention a "Halime" as Osman's mother. Also, the journal article mentioned above was an analysis of the fictional series Dirilis: Ertugrul, which is a fictional show based on a real historical personage, so that definitely is unusable. Pinging Gråbergs Gråa Sång for any input. One thing I do know - Googling through Google Books won't help. We have to trace the actual source itself, and in this case, there simply isn't one. Teavannaa (talk) 01:56, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Allow me to interfere and comment some:

• "The tomb in Sogut was placed there by Sultan Abdulhamid without any knowledge of who was being reburied there." You say this based on one book? We don't know if the author made it up. It's a claim in my opinion. People of old times were far more intelligent than the ignorant people of today. You can't take it as a fact based on one or two sources.
• "We have to trace the actual source itself, and in this case, there simply isn't one." This is not a smart thing to say and it borders on ignorance. Not all sources are on the internet, the ones that are on the internet are not all in Wikipedia, and the ones in Wikipedia are not all valid, reliable sources. As a matter of fact, Wikipedia isn't a reliable source of information. It's just a first place people usually like to start their research.

So I suggest we take things with a grain of salt and keep an open mind. We need to do a little research. 176.33.53.10 (talk) 18:31, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia is extremely unreliable because editors without knowledge of the sources are creating content based on fictional tales. In contrast, the edits regarding this topic that cite academic texts are thus far not based on "one book,” nor are they based on sources that originate on the internet (such “sources” are, in general, unreliable). If you looked at the textual sources and their citations (within the source, ie footnotes and bibliography) you will see that the point you referenced is based on several different texts from different Turkish scholars, one of whom quotes directly from the historian who attended the inauguration of the newly placed tombs around Ertugrul Bey. I am in possession of a number of books on this topic (which is why I'm speaking with confidence; I'm sorry if you think it borders on ignorance) and everything I've said is based on what the scholars, such as Lowry, Pierce, Selim Deringil, and Cemal Kafadar have said and written, among others. I've asked this before to others, so maybe you can help. Can you cite the historical chronicle, starting with Ahmedi's Tevârîh-i Mulûk-i Âl-i 'Osman, that mentions a "Halime" in Ertugrul's history? Can you trace the written sourced origins of this Halime, as we can for Ertugrul (who first appears by name in Ahmedi)? If you can, that is certainly worthy of inclusion here. Teavannaa (talk) 00:30, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Based on the sources I have seen cited on WP, Osman's mother is not "known". RS express serious doubt. Which fits with the very meager info on Osman's father. But if there are WP:RS that are missing, bring them and quote them, so they can be discussed and used. History books and journals are prefered. I have tried myself at times, but I don't read Turkish and what I have found in English I have used. It would be good to hear more about the legends she is mentioned in, perhaps they have names and authors, possibly with WP-articles? On this particular page, I wouldn't mind some kind of compromise like "Halime Hatun" (disputed) or "Unknown, but some xxth-century texts suggest Halime Hatun or Hayme Ana", with references. I'd like to ask those who think this is a fact: What are the 3 best WP:RS you can show me that supports "Halime Hatun was E's wife and/or O's mother"? The Turkish Halime Hatun page gives me nothing. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:05, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Even the scholars who do mention either a Hayme or Halime in reference to Osman or Ertugrul never note a citation of any sources - unlike the ability to document everything known about Ertugrul by consulting the early chronicles themselves - so we're still left with nothing but myths in terms of where these names of Osman's female relatives came from. Teavannaa (talk) 14:58, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

However, if a secondary source is considered generally reliable in context, we don't demand that source to in its turn cite sources. If genererally reliable sources differ on something, we try to present them in the context of WP:DUE. Which is not always that easy. Questions about the reliable-ness of a source can be asked at WP:RSN. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:23, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for explaining that! I’ll look into WP:RSN and WP:DUE. I do know there is consensus among the scholars that these names aren’t found in any of the chronicles, but the issue is whether myths that appeared hundreds of years later, orally narrated, are to be believed (and how much to believe). Teavannaa (talk) 15:29, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

On any WP-topic, the goal is always to reflect the scholarly mainstream, even if there is vigorous resistance. Shakespeare authorship question is a well known example. And boy is there resistance. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:45, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 09:38, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 July 2021

The site says Sultans and their mothers. It should be sultans and the mother of their children / Haseki / wife (only a few of those). 2600:387:A:9:0:0:0:C1 (talk) 06:33, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:42, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Number of sultan

Would it be possible to add the sultan's number in the succession? Example: Selim I (9 sultan) ..., when they pass from a father / son succession to agnatic seniority it becomes difficult to follow only with the dates of reign, the number is more immediate Sira Aspera (talk) 11:38, 8 June 2022 (UTC)