Talk:Orlando City SC/Archive 1

Archive 1

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Consensus appears to be move - and is in keeping with convention for other MLS teams that share a name with a lower division team. --Trödel 14:43, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

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Orlando City Soccer Club (2015) → Orlando City Soccer Club – We need to move this page to Orlando City Soccer Club page, since the USL Pro team is done. I don't know how to make it so that the links to the old page stay linked to that one. Elisfkc (talk) 22:29, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• NOTE the nominator moved the former article at Orlando City Soccer Club (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) to Orlando City Soccer Club (2010–14) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) on 14 September 2014, so this is in effect, a multimove request. -- 70.51.46.146 (talk) 04:37, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
• Comment seems a bit Crystally... 2015 is many months away, and the season even further away. The preseason should start first before this is renamed. -- 70.51.46.146 (talk) 04:37, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
• Do we need Soccer Club at the end? Why not Orlando City or, if we need soccer club at the end, why not "S.C." to be more consistent with clubs like Seattle Sounder FC or Manchester United F.C.? Kingjeff (talk) 04:46, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. GiantSnowman 06:54, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• OK, so Orlando City Soccer Club (2015) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) should be moved to Orlando City SC (2015) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), and that Orlando City Soccer Club (2010–14) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) should be moved to Orlando City SC (2010) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). That is standard naming convention - abbreviating the 'Soccer Club' (without punctuation marks in North America) and having only the year the club was founded, see Accrington Stanley F.C. (1891) as a long-established example. Orlando City Soccer Club (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) should be moved to Orlando City SC (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) and turned into a disambiguation page, as there is (currently) no clear PRIMARYTOPIC. Redirects created/cleaned-up as appropriate. And finally a big WP:TROUT to the nominator @Elisfkc: for starting to move pages before starting this discussion, you've just made it harder for the closing admin to track page histories. GiantSnowman 07:00, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
• Comment Kingjeff: The old page, Orlando City Soccer Club (2010-2014) was moved to Orlando City Soccer Club from Orlando City SC (See Here). Giant & 70.51.46.146: I thought I could easily move them myself, and I was wrong. I didn't mean to make it harder for anyone. If I would have known, I would have done a multimove request without moving Orlando City Soccer Club (2010-2014). Elisfkc (talk) 13:24, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
• Comment Why is the year in parentheses 2015? Shouldn't it be 2014 as they've unveiled their crest a few months ago and have announced today (16 September 2014) which players they're retaining. TheBigJagielka (talk) 17:27, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
  • In the case with the Montreal Impact, Seattle Sounders, and Vancouver Whitecaps, the MLS teams are without the parentheses and the teams before the move to MLS have the parentheses. Kingjeff (talk) 19:49, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
• Comment Since no one has objected, I'm planning on closing this discussion and tagging it with {{db-move|1=Orlando City Soccer Club|2=Moving from Future Team to Present Team}} tonight. Elisfkc (talk) 15:13, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment Actually, I don't even think I know how to close this correctly. GiantSnowman do you mind helping out? Elisfkc (talk) 04:53, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• @Elisfkc: - there is opposition, from me. I have proposed alternative page names. GiantSnowman 08:15, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• @GiantSnowman: - my bad, didn't remember that. However, according to their website and the press release that announced them as an expansion team, their name is Orlando City Soccer Club. It is the most common name in media, on their website, and everywhere else. The 2010-2014 was moved from Orlando City SC to Orlando City Soccer Club because of the fact that it is the most common name (Right Here). Elisfkc (talk) 13:31, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• Nope, standard naming is to have the 'Football Club/Sport Club' element of the name abbreviated e.g. Manchester United F.C., Seattle Sounders FC etc. I see no reason why this should be any different. GiantSnowman 20:47, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• Ok @GiantSnowman:, after doing a Google News search similar to the one that was cited for the move to Orlando City Soccer Club from Orlando City SC, I see your point. Though in my mind it should still be Orlando City Soccer Club, I see that Orlando City SC is used more and therefore is really how the articles should be names. The only two problems I have now with your initial proposal to make both pages Orlando City SC is that the name of the old page should be Orlando City SC (2010-2014) and the new one should be Orlando City SC. This follows the precedent of other teams in North America moving from a lower league into the MLS, such as San Jose Earthquakes (San Jose Earthquakes (1974–88) & San Jose Earthquakes), Seattle Sounders (Seattle Sounders (1994–2008) & Seattle Sounders FC), Portland Timbers (Portland Timbers (2001–10) & Portland Timbers), and the Vancouver Whitecaps (Vancouver Whitecaps (1986–2010) & Vancouver Whitecaps FC). Elisfkc (talk) 18:17, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

• If that is the consensus for North American articles (note non-US ones such as Accrington Stanley F.C. (1891) and Airdrieonians F.C. (1878) which only have year of founding), and with emerging consensus in this discussion that the MLS club is the PRIMARYTOPIC, then the two articles should be moved to Orlando City SC and Orlando City SC (2010–2014). GiantSnowman 18:23, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

• I agree. Elisfkc (talk) 14:42, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support as proposed--why not? Red Slash 03:13, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support. This really didn't need separate articles to begin with, it's the same team for all intents and purposes. But this incarnation is obviously the primary topic now.--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:35, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

I'd support "Orlando City SC", which seems to be much more common than the full name ([1] vs. [2])--Cúchullain ^t/c 21:34, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

References

Moved to Orlando City SC

Please note per agreement above between Snowman and Elisfkc (and the lack of any other Wikipedians objecting) - I finalized the move to Orlando City SC. However, I do so noting that if there are any objections raised here we should have another proper move discussion. --Trödel 17:18, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Help with Move

CLICK for list of pages needing review

There is no easy way to update the links because some will need to stay and reference the new club and some will need to be changed. Please help by going through the pages from this What links here list. --Trödel 14:43, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

PS I know there are some Wikipedia edit assist tools that can help with this task - so you may want to use them - but I am unfamiliar with them.

PPS Please also make the references consistent Orlando City SC seems to be preferred over Orlando City S.C. but the latter is still in use (and sometimes in the same article as the former) - while reviewing please make these consistent. I.e. use Orlando City SC

Please update below what you are working on and when completed:

• All Template and Category namespace pages and Florida Citrus Bowl Stadium to Erik Ustruck Completed --Trödel
• Orlando City Stadium Completed Elisfkc (talk) 03:50, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
• Expansion of Major League Soccer, Soccer in the United States, ESPN Wide World of Sports, Florida Citrus Bowl Stadium, & 2011-2014 Sporting Kansas City seasons. Completed Elisfkc (talk) 18:00, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Kit Edit War

Since there seems to be the beginnings of an edit war involving multiple people over the correct kits in the infobox, let's talk about it over here.

First off, my opinion is that Walter Görlitz (talk · contribs) & Fenix down (talk · contribs) (who are both Wikipedia admins by the way) are correct to use existing templates over newly made ones. This follows the best practice lain out in the template's documentation. Also, the "specific" Orlando City kits are incorrect according to the template, which states "Club badges, sponsor logos, and manufacturer logos should never be included." Second, unless the team store and I missed something, Orlando City does not have a third kit. As such, the "specific" Orlando City kits edits are incorrect again, as they include a third kit. Elisfkc (talk) 18:01, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

I'm not an admin. Fenix down is.

Many club articles incorporate small logos, so that's not the worst part, but we do have images without the logos and they should be used.

The issue for me is that the kits aren't sources. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:50, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

It's not an edit war from my pov. My revert was to remove the additions by a known and repeated vandal of kits, whose long history in adding nonsense kits can be seen here. As far as I am concerned the current kits are fine. Fenix down (talk) 09:59, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Deleting Active Teams

Deleting Active Teams box, following the seemingly end of discussion on Talk:Sporting Kansas City/Archive 1#Infobox. If you have objections, please take it up there, so as to keep everything in one place. Elisfkc (talk) 22:29, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Orlando City's home Jerseys.

It has been months since the teams' 2017 jersey was released and no one had updated their jersey here. It will be carried over next season.

Their new home jersey has the similar concept of Portland's home jersey where there it has the color gold in the stripes and with a collar as well. It is like LA Galaxy's away jersey where it has various shades of the teams primary color too.

Thank you! Bluhaze777 (talk) 18:57, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 March 2018

Update "All Time Orlando City SC Coaching Stats" and "All-time appearances" to include 1 draw for Jason Kreis, and 1 start for Joe Bendik (total now to 70.) Also edit both sections to read, "As of March 3, 2018". Tonescapone (talk) 12:32, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 23:16, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

Merge with Orlando City SC (2010–14)

I believe this article should be merged together with the Orlando City SC (2010–14) article. It seems redundant of us to have two separate articles covering the same team over different periods of time. It would be one thing if it was where the teams had different ownership and disbanded with the rise of a phoenix club, a la AFC Wimbledon, Seattle Sounders FC or SV Austria Salzburg, but these two articles of the same involve the same ownership group. Quidster4040 (talk) 17:29, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Oppose. MLS franchises are distinct legal entities from clubs, which is the case with the Seattle Sounders (1994–2008) vs. Seattle Sounders FC, Montreal, Vancouver and Portland. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:51, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose. (1) Two distinct entities. (2) Both articles are large, and a merged article would be unnavigable. (3) Severe risk of accidental misediting, e.g. in the player and staff records. Narky Blert (talk) 12:29, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
  • @Narky Blert: (1) We're writing an article about the soccer team, not about the company or legal entity. A typical reader doesn't know/care about some legal proceedings, and has no reason to think of a club with the same name, location, owners, colors, etc as a different topic. (2) The articles aren't that large, and a lot of content is redundant. The "History" and "Colors and badge" sections both have a lot of overlap and could be consolidated. The old "Club culture" and "Players and staff" sections from the old article could be entirely dropped. After that there isn't that much more content from the old article left. The article would be longer, sure, but not that much longer. (3) Not sure what this means... –IagoQnsi (talk) 08:01, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose per previous opposes and consistent practice with MLS teams in a similar situation, like Montreal, Seattle, Vancouver, and Portland, all of whom were a case of successful minor league owners buying new MLS teams that used the same identities as their predecessors. We have separate articles for them for the same reason: a change in league in the franchise model is a logical place to have a break in the historical narrative. oknazevad (talk) 20:36, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
• Support for the same reasons as I proposed at the Minnesota United discussion. User:Oknazevad talked about the precedent for having separate articles, but frankly, I think the precedent is bad and we should consider merging/restructuring each of those articles as well. Vancouver is a great example of how confusing the current structure is—we have one article that covers the team through a name change and ~5 league changes, but then we arbitrarily start a new article for MLS. Not to mention, this precedent only exists for U.S. articles—for a long time, the rest of the world's football club articles have not moved with league changes. I don't think the lack of a promotion/relegation system in the U.S. is good enough reason to confusingly break up the articles of U.S. clubs. –IagoQnsi (talk) 08:01, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose New team with the same name doesn't make it the same team. Other MLS teams with the same names as minor league teams have separate articles. If you are so concerned, why not create a "History of soccer in Orlando" page like there is for Seattle and Vancouver? KitHutch (talk) 17:18, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
• Support. This isn't a new team, sources indicated that this is clearly the USL team. Orlando City to play 2014 season at Disney: "... for the 2015 season, when Orlando City is expected to be playing its first season in Major League Soccer. As for that long-awaited MLS invitation for Orlando, Rawlings said it's very close." So they are not "two distinct entities" nor new team. Business entities change their legal form all the time. The Walt Disney Company started out as a partnership under at least two names then incorporated, split into three companies, merged back together, changed its name from Walt Disney Productions to Walt Disney Company then to Disney Enterprise which then became a subsidiary (along with CC/ABC) of the new Walt Disney Company, but it is all recognized as one company. Plus, you would have a mess of Marvel Comics as during its Timely to early Marvel eras, the "company" operated under about 60 corporations - separate legal entities. Spshu (talk) 17:35, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
• Support Agree with above. Regardless of the de jure technical legal status, in practical terms there is only 1 entity which should be reflected in 1 article. Per WP:OVERLAP, if "There are two or more pages on related subjects that have a large overlap. Wikipedia is not a dictionary; there does not need to be a separate entry for every concept." BLAIXX 02:58, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose. Montreal Impact (1992–2011), Minnesota United FC (2010–16), Portland Timbers (2001–10), Seattle Sounders (1994–2008), Vancouver Whitecaps (1986–2010) all have separate articles. No reason Orlando City SC (2010–14) should go against consensus. Joeykai (talk) 16:44, 18 July 2018 (UTC)