Talk:Ohře

Ohre or Eger

Is the English name Ohre or Eger? Antman -- chat 04:00, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

There is no english name for this river, Eger is a german variant. Britannica clearly states it is Ohre (Britannica). ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 10:21, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Brittanica states that it is "Ohre", not "Ohře". Why is there an accent? Antman -- chat 19:28, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Because Ohře is its name. ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 20:57, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Britannica says that it is 'Ohre', without the accent. Antman -- chat 02:54, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Do you have a problem with diacritics? ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 07:51, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, they are not in English, and this is the English wikipedia. You said that we use 'Ohře' because Britannica uses 'Ohře', yet Britannica actually uses 'Ohre'. So, which is it? Are we following Britannica, or the Czech language? Antman -- chat 16:59, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Why do you have a problem with diacritics? ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 21:41, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Diacritics are not part of the English language. It is the same reason we say "Munich" instead of "München". Hence, on the English Wikipedia, the term 'Ohre' should be just as acceptable as 'Ohře', especially as Britannica, the source YOU are using to warrant the name 'Ohre', does not use diacritics either. Antman -- chat 02:50, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Please feel free to change François Mitterrand to Francois Mitterrand I would like to see reaction of french contributors. Do you have some personal problem with diacritics? ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 16:09, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, they aren't in the English language. Anglicized spellings would also be helpful: It's easier to say "Schechen" than "Szczecin"... but I suppose "Schechen" looks too much like "Stettin". Antman -- chat 14:27, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

You should know that Czech language belongs to the language family which does not produce new letters if you use diacritics. So here is not any information hidden - it is additional information that you could easily read. You also can't change name just beacause you want to read it more easily, what is Schechen?! And you should know that English has diacritic too but it is not used so frequently as in other languages just remember "oö". ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 11:44, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Sure you can change the name; that's what Poland did... it was originally Stettin in English (a name much easier for Germanic speakers such as English speakers to pronounce)... also, 'ö' is in German, not English. The only diacritic I know of English ever having is 'æ', and that is written as 'ae'. It doesn't matter that Czech is a Slavic language, etc. I simply fail to understand why Wikipedia is preferring foreign names (Czech, Polish, German, Italian, French) over native English forms. Antman -- chat 13:04, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

And what about Charlotte Brontë (sometimes spelled Brontö) classic English novelist? ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 21:14, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

That is not an English name... that would be like having a German parliament member "Kuklinski", and stating that because he is in Germany, that 'Kuklinski' is a German name. The English alphabet is made up of 26 characters: ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ. Compare that to the German alphabet: AÄBCDEFGHIJKLMNOÖPQRSßTUÜVWXYZ. Antman -- chat 23:28, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Of course it is English name. She was the Irish novelist living in the 19th century, she was daughter of the reverend Patrick Brontë. Diacritic ¨ is english and it is called dieresis to indicate that the vowel is not silent, unbelievable isn't it? You can also write learnèd scholar etc. So english contains and uses diacritics, that's a fact. ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 23:58, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

They are NOT part of the standard alphabet. Any words in which there is a diacritic is almost certainly adopted from another language, such as 'café', which comes from French. Even that is usually written as 'cafe'. Also, Irish is not English. Irish is a CELTIC language, English is Germanic. Her name was Brontë, which likely is derived from a Gaelic source. Antman -- chat 19:17, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

So are you going to remove all diacritics all over the wikipedia? Isn't it a pitty? ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 19:29, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Only ones that don't belong. The English name of this river is 'Ohre' or 'Eger', not 'Ohře'. I suppose that we should adopt the Czech spelling 'Praha' instead of 'Prague' as well? Antman -- chat 02:25, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Then please change François Mitterrand to Francois Mitterrand first. ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 08:54, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

François is a French, not an English name. Please actually read what I wrote before attacking me. I stated that ENGLISH names should be preferred, but his name is actually 'François', not Francis. Unlike, for instance, Stettin/Breslau/Carlsbad/Ohre/Prag, which have English names, but the Czech/Polish forms are being preferred due to nationalist tendencies. Antman -- chat 13:14, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

François is French with English equivalent Francis, Ohře is Czech with alternative spelling Ohre. Where is the difference? I don't see any. Where I am attacking you? Remember that false accusation is a personal attack ! ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 16:05, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

François was a French man. Who called himself François. By the contrary, the Ohre is a geographic entity. It does not know itself by any name, is known by the English-speakers as either Eger or Ohre, by Germans as Eger, and Czechs as Ohře. It is the same reason the article is Prague and not 'Praha'. Antman -- chat 18:59, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

OMG, I love these discussions. If anyone can cite some scholarly research that the use of diacritics in foreign names is linked to nationalism, wow, that would be even better than just throwing out a bunch of generalisations. In my experience, the use of Central European diacritics is generally ignored by the English-language press for an absolutely banal technical reason ... they are a pain to call up on the word processor. The only popular news periodical published in English outside the region that I have ever seen using Central European diacritics consistently and correctly is The Economist. As a Czech-English translator, "Ohre" (or Skoda or Vaclav or Cesky Krumlov) is acceptable for the diacritically-challenged. Otherwise, as long as we have the technology, Ohře, Škoda, Václav and Český Krumlov are definitely preferable. Eger IMO is fine for historical contexts ... like King Wenceslas instead of King Václav. But to use the name Eger in modern contexts is about as odd as calling the former Czech president Wenceslas Havel. --Bezzemek (talk) 14:29, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

I have seen a rule somewhere (I cannot find the reference now), that for rivers, one should use the name of the river at its source. Ohre starts in Germany and it is called Eger there. It is true that 80% of the river is in the Czech Republic and that it is more of a stream than a river. --Jirka6 (talk) 23:44, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

In such a case Elbe should be Labe. --Aloysius (talk) 07:03, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Isn't it that the river is called Ohře in Czech, Eger in German and Ohre in English? IMHO names of persons are irrelevant here, unlike geographical names, a personal name is usually the same in all languages using Latin alphabet (esp. last names, except some old kings).--Jirka6 (talk) 23:55, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Source for etymology?

The article states Celtic Agara means "Salmon River" without any source. According to [1] (sorry it is in Czech, I cannot find any English online source), that Celtic word originates from indo-european *Aga, *Agira, *Agara meaning fast. I know that salmons are fast, but still ...--Jirka6 01:41, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Requested move 14 November 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move. It seems like this is a straight alternative between two langauges and there is no consensus or hard evidence one way or the other as to which is the more commonly used in English. With 2 supports and 1 oppose, this is tight, but defaulting to the status quo in the absence of better consensus.  — Amakuru (talk) 11:29, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

---

Ohře → Eger (river) – Research at Google Books produces the, perhaps surprising, result that the Eger is the most common name used in English sources for this German/Czech river. So "River Eger" and "Eger river" amassed 1,187 hits, whereas "Ohre river" and "River Ohre" only produced 437 hits. Since Eger is already taken by the town in Hungary, and I see no good reason to displace that as the primary name, we just need to use the usual convention "(river)" to disambiguate the article. Bermicourt (talk) 19:05, 14 November 2016 (UTC) --Relisting. -- Tavix ^(talk) 21:07, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

• I'm not at all informed about this river, but per WP:NATURAL, if moved, it should be to Eger River. Red Slash 13:07, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose the German 65km is little more than a stream, the Czech 251km is a real river. There are barely any post 2000 print references to either, and those to Eger tend to be in history books describing a German-speaking Bohemia that doesn't exist now. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:57, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
  • Comment. This is not the normal case of choosing from two native names, but following English usage. My research showed that "Eger" was 2-3 times more common that "Ohre" and that "Eger" is more common than "River Eger" and "Eger River". It also turned up plenty of post-2000 sources - at least 25 (why limit it to 2000 anyway, Bohemia hasn't existed for about 70 years). Feel free to check again, but I'd ask you to re-consider your "oppose" unless you find clear evidence that "Ohre" is more common in book sources. Actually the opposite appears to be true, hence the move request. --Bermicourt (talk) 17:18, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

For the same reason we don't use German names for every former Germany territory. Or don't use colonial names from history books for everywhere Britain had a colony. This river is a stream in Germany that turns into a River in Czech Republic. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:16, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

• Support per nomination. "Eger" does appear to be more common than "Ohre" as the English-language reference to the river. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 07:46, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

@Roman Spinner: did you include pre-WWII books and history books in your search? In ictu oculi (talk) 08:18, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

I did search prewar sources and found, as discussed at length above (Talk:Ohře#Ohre or Eger in 2007, continued in 2009) that, alongside the form "Eger (river)", the river is, indeed, mentioned in English-language sources, but as "Ohre", not "Ohře", thus sowing further confusion with the German river delineated in a separate Wikipedia entry, Ohre.
Thus we have two entries, each specifying a different river — Ohře and Ohre — and the only direct method (i.e. other than via a link within another article) of reaching Ohře is through a hatnote atop Ohre (as far as users of streamlined-function keyboards in the English-speaking world are concerned).
If Ohře flowed solely through the Czech Republic, I would, indeed, support the use of "Ohře" as this article's main title header. However, since (an admittedly smaller) portion of it does originate in Germany, I must continue to support the use of "Eger", especially in view of the existence of another same-named river Ohre, save for the diacritic. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 05:09, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

There you go you see, pre-WWII books naturally give the German name even for the main river which both then and now was in Czech Republic. That compares with modern books likely Lonely Planet which give Czech names for Czech rivers inside the Czech Republic. Since this is the 2016 Wikipedia we need to follow contemporary 2016 reliable sources. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:22, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.