Talk:Nogai Horde

Timeline

I feel that the subsection Decline of the Golden Horde in the History section doesn't really belong to this article. But more important than that is the apparent contradiction in the timeline.

• 1452 Beginning of Russian rule over Turkic Muslims.
• 1480 Approximate start of Russian independence from Tatars.

If Russia started to gain independence from Tatars in 1480, how could she began to rule Turkic Muslims in a earlier date ? Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 14:40, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

• 1. Decline of the Golden Horde is needed to explain the rise of the Nogais and introduce the nearby powers. It could be moved somewhere else if the related articles were reorganized.
• 2. The Horde claimed sovereignty over Russia, or at least collected tribute from it. Qasim Khan was a man from the Horde or Kazan who made himself a subject of Moscow. So the Horde was over Moscow and Moscow was over the Kasimov KhanateBenjamin Trovato (talk) 22:13, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Kazakh affinity

The affinity between Nogais and Kazakh deserves attention. There is literature, I think in a form of a monograph, in Russian, that describes and analyses their affinity. When in trouble, Nogais were returning back to Kazakhstan, there was always connection and in and out flows. Barefact (talk) 09:04, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

All of the steppe peoples had a similar way of life and bands would often move from one group to another, voluntarily or involuntarily. The same group of people would acquire a different name when they were taken over by a different ruling clan. Names like Nogai and Xiongnu usually represent politically organized groups and are not necessarily distinct ethnic groups. Everything I have seen treats the Nogais and Kazakhs as different groups, at least for political purposes. Benjamin Trovato (talk) 22:53, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

This reminds me a famous citation of WWII, that all Japs look the same. As we know now they are not. Neither do the Europeans look alike, in spite of what the Japanese thought before. Similar way of pastoral economy does not make them all alike, there are mighty differences between clans, tribes, territorial divisions, etc. Steppe peoples also spoke different languages, and all kinds of dialectal variations. They could distinguish who was a kin and who was not. You are right that Nogai was a politonym, but ethnically it was a conglomerate of extracts from different tribes, like any state that you know of, and apparently a largest component was Kazakh, and that political association never broke an umbilical cord with their Kazakh origin. The [1] talks about it a little, D.Sinor, 1996, discusses the connections [2], one of the monographs is here [[3]]. Xiongnu is a Chinese derisive rendering for the Huns adopted in the 2nd c. BC in unification of the Chinese language by the Han empire, it is neither politonym nor endonym. "Hun" is Turkic for "kin", i.e. it is a super-ethnonym, like Latinos in Americas. Politically, the Kazakh Khanate and the Nogai Horde were different entities, you are right, but so are South and North Korea and many others. Hopefully, someone will address the subject of Nogai and Kazakh affinity. Barefact (talk) 06:25, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

removed

All this was removed from the main article. Adding to the raid-list in Russo-Crimean Wars is good, but: 1. It belongs in Russo-Crimean Wars or perhaps a new and better article. Mixing in a long list of raids makes political history hard to follow. The date-list format of this article probably should be converted to prose in any case. 2. for all of it. No way to verify. 3. In some places English has mistakes or is unorthodox or meaningless.Benjamin Trovato (talk) 03:41, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

• 1521 Nogais, driven west by the Kazakhs, cross Volga and attack Astrakhan. In the summer of 1521 the Crimean Khan Mehmed Giray led a huge Tatar hordess. Crimea (50-60,000 horsemen), Nogais and Kazan attack Muscovy. Moscow besiege. Crimeans and Nogais impunity began to ravage and devastate Kolomna. According to the chronicler of Ostrog, Muhammmed Giray "in Moscow for more than 300,000 vyaznev (captives) scored." C. Herberstein wrote that the Crimean Khan "took away from Muscovy so many many prisoners, it seems hardly likely. For they say that their number exceeded 800,000.
• c1550-60 Disorder. Moscow backs unpopular Ismael Bey. Ataulskaya Horde formed on the EmbaIn December of that year, the Crimean Tatars and Nogais again attacked Ryazan land on Meshchersky place and the Old Ryazan .In August, 30-tysyanoe Tatar army committed a new campaign to Ryazan and Meshchersky land. Against Tatars "in the field" acted as the Russian army under Prince S. I. Mikulinsky . Not taking the battle, the enemy went obratono in the steppe. In December of that year, the Crimean Tatars and Nogais again attacked Ryazan land on Meshchersky place and the Old Ryazan .
• In July 1572 the Crimean Khan Devlet Giray took a major new campaign to Moscow Russia. To hike the Crimean Khan gathered a stronger army, bringing its strength up to 120 thousand people. His forces consisted of the Crimean Tatars, Nogais and seven thousand Turkish Janissaries
• 1574 The Crimean Khan Devlet Giray took a major new campaign to Moscow Russia. Bringing its strength up to 120 thousand people. His forces consisted of Crimean Tatars, Nogais and seven thousand Turkish Janissaries
• 1577 Crimean Tatars and Nogais continued to raid the southern Russian lands and led Temnikov to ruins

Emba *

• In December of that year, the Crimean Tatars and Nogais again attacked Ryazan land on Meshchersky place and the Old Ryazan .In August, 30-tysyanoe Tatar army committed a new campaign to Ryazan and Meshchersky land. Against Tatars "in the field" acted as the Russian army under Prince S. I. Mikulinsky . Not taking the battle, the enemy went obratono in the steppe. In December of that year, the Crimean Tatars and Nogais again attacked Ryazan land on Meshchersky place and the Old Ryazan .
• 1582Large Nogais Cheremisov assisted rebels in Kazan region and raided the southern Russian lands.
• 1584. 5000th Crimean-Nogai squad Casa nobleman pillaged Ryazan land to the river Vozhi. Within two weeks, Nogais captured "countless many Russian people." In May 7, Russian army under the command of the duma nobleman M. A. Beznina overtook the enemy at the mouth of the river Vysy, near Kaluga. In a bitter battle Russian defeated nomads and recaptured approximately 70,000 prisoners.
• 1592 Crimean raid on Moscow frontier. Many captives
• 1593 Nogais operated in Voronezh and Livni .
• 1594 In Spring, another Nogai Tatar-(up to 8 thousand) raid southern Russian lands. The enemy was besieged and Nogais stormed the city.
• During the " Time of Troubles " Crimean Khanate and the Nogai Horde resumed their depredations on defenseless Russian lands. Nogais ravaged and burned many of the "Ukraine and Seversk" city. The number of the enemy up to 100 thousand people. Few and weak Russian outpost on the border could not offer effective resistance to the great mass of the steppe cavalry. Nomads burned towns, villages and suburbs, killing and taking prisoner from the locals.
• 1613-1643 Nogais even crossed the Oka, "fought" Kolomna , Serpukhov and Bohr places, going to the outskirts of Moscow . Other Tatar troops ravaged suburbs and surroundings Pronsk , Mikhailova , Dedilova , Dankoff, Pereyaslavl-Ryazan and Kursk .Kalmyks, warlike Buddhist Mongols, move west from Dzungaria and occupy area from the Don to the Emba. Some eastern Nogais join Kazakhs and Karakalpaks. Others stay as Kalmyk subjects. Others cross the Volga southwest to the Kuban or west across Don, both groups becoming subjects of Crimea
• 1614: 20000th Nogai Horde came near to Moscow and destroyed the capital area. Other Nogai forces devastated Temnikov and alatorsky counties and many of the cities like Kursk , Rylsk , Komarichev, Karachev and Bryansk. Nogai raids within sight of Moscow.
  • 1615 The bulk of the attackers were Big and Small Nogais and Azov Tatars. In the spring and summer of 1615 the main forces of the enemy (up to 25 thousand people.) on Kalmiusskomu gentry broke into the southern Russian districts. Tatars and Nogais penetrated deep into the territory of the Russian state, settled at Serpukhov and from there went on a number of counties. Were In July 1615 Azovtsev and Nogais (up to three thousand people.) has made ​​a new attack on the southern Russian frontier.
• 1616 Raids on Russian borders participated were parcipated by large Nogais
• 1617 small Nogais and Azov Tatars invaded three times in South-Russian ownership. Nogai nobleman camped at Serpukhov , where individual detachments sent out to plunder the village and capture prisoners. Also in 1617 the Crimean Tatar horde commanded by Kalga-Sultan Devlet Giray has made ​​a new campaign against the ruinous Rzeczpospolita. Crimeans fought near Kanev, White Church while Nogais fought in Ukraine town of Lions .
• 1621 On the orders of the Sultan Crimean Khan Jani Beg Giray started a new campaign against Poland with 100 thousand soldiers composed of Crimeans, Nogais Small and Big hordes.
• 1625 In autumn 1625 the Crimean Khan Magmet Giray and nureddin Azamat Giray led another campaign against Poland. In the campaign involved 60 thousand Crimeans and Nogais and Turkish troops from Belgorod to 20 thousand Crimean and Turkish troops fought under Bar , Galich and Lviv , penetrating even in Little Poland . Individual Tatar "corrals" penetrated into the Russian and Belzskoe province. However, the Polish campaign ended unsuccessfully.
• 1628 In August 1629 the Crimean Khan Dzhanibek Giray ( 1628 - 1635 ) organized a large Tatar trip to Poland. Crimean Tatars and Nogais began to ravage the surrounding towns and villages, killing and captivating the local population.
• 1640 Crimean Tatars and Nogais terribly ravaged Volhynia , Podolia and Galicia, taking a large number of captives.
• 1649 Nogai Tatars "corrals" scattered Volyn and Chervonnaya Russia, plundering, pillaging and capturing defenseless prisoner Ukrainian population. Jampol , Zaslavl , Ostrog , Mezhibozh, Olyka , Tuchin, Polonnoe , Derazhnya, pins and many other Ukrainian cities and towns were sacked and burned, the local population slaughtered and plundered, many Ukrainians were taken by the Tatars in Crimea and sold into slavery.
• 1664 Crimean and Nogai nobleman with their troops took part in the military campaign of the Polish King Jan Kazimierz Waza in Left-Bank Ukraine. Poles and Lithuanians took some small Ukrainian towns and fortresses, and their allies - the Crimean Tatars and Nogais scattered in the surrounding area and collect "yasyrya." Polish-Lithuanian forces reached Novgorod-Seversky, Karachev and Ryl'a . Tatars same as usual devastated a wider area - Livny and Bryansk counties were under Valuiki and near Voronezh . Were devastated Sevsk , Rylsky , Putivl , Karachevsky , Orel, Krom and Kurdish districts. Captured about 6360 people.
• 1672 Kalmyks, Russians and Cossacks besiege Azov

The wiki contains too little info of extend of Nogai horde so I tried adding some, I didn't even edit half of it. Maybe I'll try to make the list look a little better, okay? My sources are all from the Russian wikipedia btw, they know history of the Nogai horde far better than European historian since the Nogai Horde had a history of fighting and raiding Russia hundreds of years. Click here for the link[4] WorldCreaterFighter Talk 11:36, 30 Janauary. 2013.

Good. I had not seen that one. Maybe we should translate the whole thing to English as a new article and delete the list in Russo-Crimean Wars. I think that I am right that the raid-list should be separate from the Nogai history article. Benjamin Trovato (talk) 22:04, 30 January 2013 (UTC) // If you don't want to translate I will start in a few weeks after I finish some Canadian stuff. Benjamin Trovato (talk) 22:51, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Nogai slavery and raids

I dont think this long list of raids and number of prisoners and the emphasize on slave trade by Nogai is not written here because to give information> It is written in a non neutral POV manner, it probably wants to convince the reader that the Nogai Horde and people were evil slave traders and thats why they deserved to be destroyed and colonised by the Russians and Kalmyks.

If we want to balance the historical reality, then it must be written that slavery and raiding was common in a very large part of the world especially in the Eastern Europe/ steppe region, the Nogais themselves were so much raideds and attacked by Russian slavic Cossacks and Mongol Kalmyk that they actually lost their own lands allmost all of them were killed, became prisoners and assimilated or became refugees to the Ottoman empire. The Nogai lands are now part of Russia and they themselves are destroyed nation. In the number of casualties they also suffered much more than they did to others. What was for centuries Nogai lands is now populated by Russian and Kalmyk settlers.

So we have to add that Russia did much more damage to its nomadic Turkic neighbours than vice versa, all of their lands are now part of Russia and the people are ethnically cleansed in most areas.

We do not need in the article justifications for the destruction of these people by using their slave trade as argument, this is now added by many (probably POV) users on all these Nomadic Turkic peoples articles.

We should not forget that Russia itself was the biggest slave owning country and a huge slave system, before 1860 almost the entire Russian peasant population tens of million people were poor serfs half slaves of their masters. Many of them before 1800 were actually slaves.

In number of destruction, killing massacre, slavery, no nomadic people can equal the Russian state.DragonTiger23 (talk) 15:21, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

" You have been blocked indefinitely from editing for disruptive editing and systematic breaches of your topic ban. August 2014"

It's pronounced No-gay, not no-guy(which is what nogai sounds like)

^ 67.84.232.67 (talk) 04:27, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

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