Talk:Nobiles

What happened to this article?

I could've sworn a useful little article on the nobiles once existed.

I deleted the following as simplistic and partly untrue:

"Nobiles controlled Rome's wealth and government."

Why is it that articles on Rome are so drenched with power fantasies? I mean, yes, the nobiles were the ruling class. But a large amount of Rome's wealth was controlled by non-nobles, the equestrians (such as Cicero's friend Atticus, who liked to stay out of politics) who were the so-called "business class." Since you had to be of consular rank to be noble, there were also obviously senators who were not noble. Theoretically, your family could've held many magistracies lower than consul (the role of the praetorship in determining nobilitas is disputed, especially in the early Republic) and still not be "noble."

I also deleted:

"Created after the Lex Hortensia (287 BC), the nobiles were a new social class consisting of both patrician and plebeian families, in which the family consisted of governmental officers."

Hortensia did not "create" a new social class; this legislation gave plebeians access to offices and privileges that made it easier for them to attain nobilitas. Noble plebeians already existed at that time; the Valerii are perhaps the prime example. "The family consisted of governmental officers" is nonsensical: the gens included women, who could not hold office, and not all members of a noble gens were elected to office. Cynwolfe (talk) 12:40, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

possible sources for expansion of article

The following are the results of a slightly brainless but not entirely indiscriminate google-search - I'll post further as I find. I can't vouch for the quality of any but am not going to stick my neck out and say which - other than the German language offering, which must be brilliant as I don't even vaguely understand it, and the French, which I read like an otter speaks English.

In German : [1] (google books, partial. Schlinkert, ordo senatorius und nobilitas)

In French: so OK it's from the French Numismatic Review... [2] ... but I find numismatics fascinating anyway and anything on Phillip the Arab and nobilitas surely can't be dull.

The rest are in English:

[3] (Wirszubski, Libertas as a political idea at Rome etc.)

[4] (Flower, Ancestor masks and aristocratic power in Roman culture) - some interesting stuff about the connection between possession of imagines and nobilitas.

Haploidavey (talk) 21:04, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the Flowers one is good — I'd forgotten about it. It questions the line of argument that the supposed ius imaginis was possessed only by nobiles, and pointed out that the reasoning was circular; if you display busts, you're noble; if you're noble, you display busts. Cynwolfe (talk) 21:30, 9 September 2009 (UTC)