Talk:No. 4 Commando/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Skinny87 (talk) 14:03, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

   'The next two planned operations were both cancelled and it was not until 1942, that No. 4 Commando took part in another raid, Operation Abercrombie, a raid on the French coastal town of Hardelot.' - First comma is unneccessary.

   'Later the same year No. 4 was one of three commando units, selected for the Dieppe raid.' - Another comma not needed

   'They were still there 82 days later, protecting the beachhead's left flank.' - Too informal, reword as 'The battalion remained there for a further 82 days, protecting the beachhead's left flank' or words to that effect.

   'they had no administrative personnel, such as cooks, clerks, etc' - I don't think the 'etc' is need there, just say 'such as cooks and clerks, for example.' It just seems more encyclopedic that way.

   I would put clerk first in the above sentence, to connect in the reader's mind the fact that they were usually used to billet troops.

   'This arrangement meant that commandos lived on civilian rations, while the rest of the armed forces had the much larger military scale of rations' - Why were they on civilian rations and not military scale? And can you define what you mean by 'much larger military scale' for the rations? Do you mean greater choice, or greater calorie amount, for example? reworded

   'Machine guns nor anything heavier were available at the time' - 'Nor' should just be 'or'

   'The No. 2 Company was formed by the re-designation of No. 7 Commando.' - I don't think 'The' is needed at the beginning, it seems awkward.

   'Within three months, the Special Service Battalions were disbanded and the original commando units reformed but on a smaller scale with six troops instead of the original ten' - How did this affect the size of No. 4 Commando? reworded

   'Together with No. 3 Commando they conducted Operation Claymore, a raid on the Lofoten Islands' - Wrong tense, it should be 'they were to conduct'

   'While this was happening a new second in command (2IC) was appointed Major Charles Vaughan and a Captain Lord Lovat joined the unit as an extra officer.' - Need a comma after 'appointed' and 'Vaughan'. And what was Lovat's actual role as this mysterious 'extra officer'? done Lovat was appointed training officer

   'No. 2 Commando, led by Lieutenant Colonel Newman, provided the largest contingent of Commandos for the raid.[' - Needs some introduction to the raid, even if it's just a sentence; even with the wikilink this is an abrupt introduction, especially as it's about a different unit.

   'The other men all returned safely to No. 4 Commando' - Did they achieve anything during the raid of note? - no they never managed to land reword a bit

   'Instead of using Infantry Landing Ships to cross the Channel they would be taken across on Motor Gun Boats towing Assault Landing Craft (LCA).' - Do we know why this decision was taken? reworded seems they were just trying a different system

   'However, the two commando troops were discovered cutting the barbed wire beach obstacles and German machine guns opened fire. The commandos did carry out a reconnaissance of the area but were unable to capture any prisoners. The commandos returned without loss, but one man was wounded in the leg.' - Repetition of 'The commandos' as a sentence opening, and do we know how they were discovered? reworded - theres nothing to explain how they were discovered. Possibly some warning system on the barbed wire but thats just guessing.

   First two paragraphs of Dieppe need re-ordering, so that the background of Rutter goes before the number of ships, aircraft and personnel, otherwise it doesn't flow.

   'Landing on the eastern flank No. 3 Commando would assault the Goebbels artillery battery, No. 4 Commando would be responsible for the Hess battery on the western flank' - You need a 'while' after 'the Goebbels artillery battery'.

   'selected two landing beaches codenamed Orange one and two' - Capitalize the numbers.

   'Before the war there were steps down to the beach, these had been removed and the gullies filled with barbed wire and other obstacles' - 'But these had been removed...'

   'This offered the easier access to the top of the cliffs' - 'The easier access' is either missing a word, or has one word too many.

   'The plan was for 255 all ranks in four troops (A, B, C and F), headquarters and attached specialists, to be divided into two groups.' - Needs rewording, as at the moment it doesn't flow well at all - it's primarily the first few words, as the '255 all ranks in four troops' stumbles along a bit. changed wording

   'After the attack Group two would withdraw through Group one and be picked up by the waiting LCAs on Orange one beach' - I assume both groups would be picked up? At the moment, it makes it seem as if only Group Two would be. You also need to watch your capitalisation, you're missing a few in the previous few sentences.

   'Group two had an opposed landing being greeted by machine gun fire from the two pillboxes.' - Which pillboxes are these then - they haven't been mentioned before. slightly reworded

   'As the approached the battery at 05:45 it opened fire on the main landing force coming ashore at Dieppe' - 'They'

   Should mention Porteous leading F troop at his first mention (for the VC) and not the second mention. reworded he was not leading when awarded the VC

   'Demolition experts from F Troop, destroyed the guns with pre formed charges.[35] While B Troop searched the battery buildings for intelligence materials. Carrying their wounded with them and escorting prisoners both troops withdrew through the fire base.' - Okay, you need a dash between 'pre formed', you don't need the comma after 'F Troop', and the fullstop between 'formed charges' and 'While B Troop' creates two small sentences that stop abruptly.

   'For the landing each man carried a rucksack weighing 80 pounds (36 kg) containing extra ammunition, Brens, mortars, Vickers K guns and PIATs' - Reword, as at the moment it sounds like each man carried everything listed.

   'The rest of No. 4 Commando were moving along the Lion sur Mer road towards their objective.' - 'Was moving'

   'As C Troop reached the forming up point for the assault it met heavy machine gun fire.' - Where did this come from? from the gun battery reworded

   'At 04:45, 7 November No. 4 Commando were on their start line' - Where were their start lines? reworded

   'In Recklinghausen part of their duties was to provide the guard force for a civilian internment camp' - 'Were' instead of 'was'

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

   Why is there a battle honour for Madagascar when the Commando apparently took no part in the campaign? see answer below

   'Lieutenant Colonel C.P.D Legard and the Regimental Sergeant Major W. Morris held their first parade on 22 July 1940, at Weymouth Pavilion. The volunteers were informed of the intended role for the commandos and that training would be "tough and demanding and any who could not measure up to the standard required would be returned to their parent unit without any leave of appeal".' - Needs a citation ref added

   Do we have nothing else from works on Dieppe about the praise for No.4 Commando?

   'These changes required days on the rifle ranges learning their new weapons.' - This needs to be reworded, either to change 'their' to 'the' or to add who exactly were learning the new weapons. reworded

   'Having captured their objectives, No. 4 Commando reformed and set out to join the rest of the brigade,' - 'It's objectives'

   'but there was still no signs of a German attack' - 'Were no signs'

   'For the two hours before this, No. 6 Commandos was heavily bombed,' - Extra 's' on Commando

   .'The attack did not materialise until 17:00, when massed German infantry were observed forming up in front of F Troop. Just in time an artillery Forward Observation Officer arrived from brigade. He called for 12 rounds rapid fire from the 25 pounder guns attached to the 6th Airborne Division. ' - These three sentences are quite stilted and could be merged into two sentences that flow more. reworded

   'Of more immediate concern for No. 4 Commando were their casualty replacements.' - This implies that there was a lesser concern mentioned previously, which hasn't been made clear. reworded

   'Having marked the landing spot for the rest of the commando, No. 1 and No.2 Troops landed next.' - This makes it sound like these troops marked the landing spot, when it was surely the SBS?

3. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

   Why is there a battle honour for Madagascar when the Commando apparently took no part in the campaign?

It was awarded to No. 5 Commando when one unit/battalion gets awarded a battle honour. Its presente dto the regiment. For example in the Falklands war only 2nd and 3rd Parachute battalions were present but the 1st battalion also display the honour on their regimental colours.--Jim Sweeney (talk) 22

06, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

1. 'Lieutenant Colonel C.P.D Legard and the Regimental Sergeant Major W. Morris held their first parade on 22 July 1940, at Weymouth Pavilion. The volunteers were informed of the intended role for the commandos and that training would be "tough and demanding and any who could not measure up to the standard required would be returned to their parent unit without any leave of appeal".' - Needs a citation ref added

   Do we have nothing else from works on Dieppe about the praise for No.4 Commando?

Not as detailed that I can find just remarking on how they carried out the only successful part of the raid

1. 'The new troop with mortar and Vickers machine gun sections provided the heavy weapons needed for their new role as assault infantry.' ' - Can we have something about their new role and why it was created, as it's rather abruptly introduced. reworded

   Normandy section, first few paras. Orders say five British troops, you say six. Which was it? reworded five fighting one heavy weapons troop

   'With the machine guns taken, E and F Troops began their assault. The attack was successful but they discovered the guns were only wooden dummies made from telegraph poles. The real guns had been removed three days previously and positioned further inland.' - Citation needed. And what were the German casualties, if known? ref added nothing I have give details of casualties will try and find something

   Can we have the Commando's casualties for the initial assault, or at the very least for the entire Normandy section? Its in the Orne bridgehead section exact numbers are not knwon it was just given as 50 percent

   The initial two paragraphs of the Walcheren section are confusing and need to be rewritten. We have a sketchy plan for what the Commando was doing and then apparently conducting an assault landing, the Scottish Brigade behind it. But then we have a section on the Commando reorganizing and training new troops. This confuses because the first paragraph makes it seem as if the Commando was conducting an assault on enemy-held territory landing at Flushing, when apparently it wasn't. Was it in Allied hands, or just unoccupied by the Germans? At any rate, it needs reorganizing. reworded

   I'm also confused as to what the Commando was actually supposed to do in the 1 November operation. In the first para of the Walcheren section we have a vague notion of liberating the Scheldt, and then in the third para we have the Commando leading an assault, But what were the Commando's onjectives? What was the area like, and who was to do what? reworded

   Third and fifth paragraphs of Walcheren are uncited. added

   'Lieutenant Colonel Dawson allocated stretches of the coast to each troop and taking the offensive to the enemy, started a programme of raids on Schouwen-Duiveland.' - Did the Commando undertake the operations, and were they generally successful? What happened to the enemy garrison?

Its not known what happened to the garrison as by the surrender 4 Cmdo had left the area.

1. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

   I think the assault on the Normandy battery section needs more detail on the battery and the surrounding area. You have a Troop occupying houses to cover assault troops, but I don't have a feel for the area, ie where these houses were in relation to the batter. Anything you can add to this would be helpful. more added

   There's a distinct lack of details on the opposing German troops, in the Normandy section. If possible, we need numbers for each assault against the Commando, and at the very least the regiment/division the attackers belonged to.

details of the defenders added - All I could find on their casualties was that the division had been reduced to 300 fighting men by the end 6 June. It was on another web site which probably would not pass as reliable so I have left that out

1. What do the stars next to some of the Battle Honours represent? These indicate where 4 Commando fought

2. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

3. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

4. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

5. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

Finished a partial review, making it all the way upto the beginning of Normandy. Good article so far, but needs some work. There are some details to be filled in, and you need work on your commas Jim. I'll give the article a copy-edit once I've done the review and you've made all the needed changes. Skinny87 (talk) 17:40, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Finished the review. A good and very interesting article, but at the moment seems like a diamond in the rough. Needs the prose tightening up, especially commas, which I can help with, and more details added where requested. Skinny87 (talk) 19:13, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the review I will strike out the questions I have rectified. Will return later --Jim Sweeney (talk) 22:00, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Some more done. working on the rest --Jim Sweeney (talk) 08:56, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

All I believe completed. I have hilighted parts where I was unable to locate details as fully as I would have liked. --Jim Sweeney (talk) 07:48, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, I've taken a look over the changes Jim, and you've put in some hard work. The bolded parts are only minor issues and won't stop me from promoting this. Good work! Skinny87 (talk) 07:57, 6 October 2010 (UTC)