Talk:Newcastle, Dublin

Requested move 15 November 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Newcastle, Dublin. (closed by non-admin page mover) Skarmory (talk • contribs) 22:16, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

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Newcastle, South Dublin → Newcastle, County Dublin – Although it is in the county of South Dublin, the WP:COMMONNAME for the address remains County Dublin. See, for example, the address of its post office. Iveagh Gardens (talk) 18:54, 15 November 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. ^Clyde!_Franklin! 21:11, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

• Support. "Newcastle, County Dublin" would appear to meet WP:COMMONNAME. Note that the article was originally at that title. Spleodrach moved it (in 2010) to Newcastle, Dublin. And Laurel Lodged moved it (in 2014) to Newcastle, South Dublin. While I'm pinging both editors (for possible comment here), personally I agree with the proposal and suggestion that "Newcastle, County Dublin" is likely a more appropriate title (on COMMONNAME grounds). Guliolopez (talk) 12:53, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose There is no such place as County Dublin. It was abolished. It exists only in folk memory and the GAA. The current county is South Dublin. Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:56, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

• Comment. While it is true that the county/council were abolished, I'm not sure that's as relevant to the name of the subject here (the village of Newcastle) as your recommendation suggests. If not "Newcastle, County Dublin" then perhaps "Newcastle, Dublin" is preferable? I note, for example, that we don't say "Blackrock, DLR" (rather Blackrock, Dublin). Or "Dundrum, DLR" (but Dundrum, Dublin). Ditto it's not "Swords, Fingal" or "Rush, Fingal" (but Swords, Dublin and Rush, Dublin). I note, also, that Newcastle is the only member of the Villages in South Dublin or Places in South Dublin categories that use a "XXX, South Dublin" qualifier. Where needed, all the others seem to use "XXX, Dublin" or "XXX, County Dublin". If "XXX, County Dublin" is objectionable, would "Newcastle, Dublin" not be a compromise? (Certainly, as noted, "Newcastle, South Dublin" doesn't seem as relevant a WP:COMMONNAME match as the alternatives...) Guliolopez (talk) 13:51, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

• Support - this is nothing critical, and the current title functions - but while just "Dublin" risks confusion with the city, "South Dublin" and the other new counties have not yet achieved popular usage as location denominators - ordinary people still think of the traditional county as a whole. Of course if asked specifically, most (though in my experience, not all, especially if not bill-paying householders) know which of City/DLR/SD/Fingal they are in, but people refer to their areas most often as just within the old county. All, of course, respecting referencing and COMMONNAME. SeoR (talk) 13:54, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
• Comment: there is no longer an administrative area named County Dublin; that was unambiguously abolished in 1994. Yet I would argue that it's an exaggeration to claim that it only exists in the folk memory and the GAA. As I noted, the post office uses Co. Dublin. I can't link eircodes, but addresses there in the SD/DLR/FL that don't have the postcode system also use Co. Dublin. When the census was released, it used County Dublin as a whole as its unit in the first instance; I recall because I had to dig a little to add the legal counties to 2022 census of Ireland. Whatever may have been the intention in 1993, the usage of County Dublin has not been eradicated for official naming purposes. —Iveagh Gardens (talk) 14:01, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
• Comment: Move it to Newcastle, Dublin like, Blackrock, Dublin, Rush, Dublin, Swords, Dublin and Dundrum, Dublin etc. Spleodrach (talk) 16:32, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

  Amend proposal: supporting this, for consistency. I'm not sure there's a confusion with the city in this context of disambiguation, as SeoR suggests. Iveagh Gardens (talk) 16:46, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

  Weak support - I prefer the "County Dublin" option but "Dublin" is still workable. I do think that distinguishing between districts of the core city ("Portobello, Dublin", "The Liberties of Dublin", "Clontarf, Dublin") and areas long in the "urban county" space is worthwhile, and even more so best to be distinct with non-contiguous areas such as Swords and Rush - but the ", Dublin" thing is going a while, so we can just add to that collection. SeoR (talk) 01:23, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

  Weak support for ALT. Laurel Lodged (talk) 16:57, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Relisting comment: For more discussion about the ALT. ^Clyde!_Franklin! 21:11, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Support ALT. I'm not sure what additional discussion is required, as all five contributors to this discussion have either proposed or supported the "Newcastle, Dublin" compromise. Given, granted, that each of us didn't necessarily "label" our comments with a "support" prefix, I'm doing so now. To confirm that I support the compromise proposal. (Which myself and Spleodrach proposed on 16 Nov, Iveagh Gardens (as nom) confirmed as an ALT they supported, and SeoR and Laurel Lodged acknowledged as an acceptable (if not ideal) compromise on 21 Nov.) Otherwise, in all honesty, I'm not sure what additional discussion is needed. Are there practical questions about the ALT that need to be addressed? Guliolopez (talk) 13:33, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Comment: I do acknowledge the distinction SeoR makes between the city and the county, which I why my original proposal was for County Dublin as the disamibguator. I've been persuaded that for consistency with Swords and Rush, similarly far if not further from the urban centre of the capital, that , Dublin suffices. I wouldn't be opposed to a core vs. county distinction, were such a discussion to arise on WP:IMOS. Titles should probably reflect usage elsewhere on Wikipedia, where we have e.g. for Patrick Little, "Born in Dundrum, County Dublin". But that's a matter for another discussion, and as far as this discussion goes, I believe there's consensus for Newcastle, Dublin, for the consistency argument proposed by Spleodrach. Iveagh Gardens (talk) 13:04, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.