Talk:Neverwinter Nights 2/Archive 1

Archive 1

Opening comment

There was a comment here which looked like vandalism (except it wasn't in the main article). It didn't help the article, and didn't even pretend to help, so I deleted it. --Ruijoel (talk) 08:57, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

removed bias

i removed the section in the first paragraph where it was stated that the game got "favourable reviews" and cited 3 reviews that could be argued as "favourable" firstly thats iffy talk but most importantly i could google 3 terrible reviews and say that the game was considered terrible by critics.

in any case its uncylcopedic and unneccesary here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.214.41.170 (talk • contribs) 01:48, January 2, 2007.

The critical reaction to a game is certainly encyclopedic and relevant. The links weren't 3 reviews. One was links to 3 meta-review sites that pretty clearly show "general positive" reviews. The two to Gamespot and IGN could be considered representative examples. Also, two notes: 1. be sure to sign your posts on talk pages using ~~~~. 2. Your edit accidentally deleted a bunch of content beyond the review links. You might find the "Show changes" button useful for checking that you're not accidentally making unexpected changes. — Alan De Smet | Talk 02:13, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Old, unlabelled discussion

This needs some editing. There's no character resizing, the reviews were not 'very' positive, bugs and general community distaste should be mentioned. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.11.226.104 (talk • contribs) 18:13, November 11, 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this game is very buggy --Mlaheji 11:05, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

In the features section, it says that players can now ride horses and build strongholds, but from what I've seen, Obsidian decided not to allow horses to be ridden. >:( --Demonesque 15:53, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Figures. That was the only thing I was really thinking I'd like to see that wasn't available in NWN. There are a lot of third party extensions that approximate this, but none are satisfactory. Hopefully they will include pack animals at the very least. Canonblack 21:52, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

There aren't any horses in the game at all. --Mlaheji 11:05, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Official website

There is an official website for the game, now: http://www.atari.com/nwn2

Added to "Production, promotion and release" and altered "External Links" text to reflect the change. I have it coming online on "March 28, 2006", the date of the "welcome" message from Feargus Urquhart. 68.14.76.141 12:00, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

User Categories associated with NWN

For those who are interested you can now associate yourself with NWN in the following way:

• Add {{User Neverwinter Nights}} to your user page to indicate you play Neverwinter nights
• Add {{user nwscript}} if you can use NWScript
• Add {{user nwscript-1}} if you consider yourself a beginning NWScripter
• Add {{user nwscript-2}} if you consider yourself a intermediate NWScripter
• Add {{user nwscript-3}} if you consider yourself a advanced NWScripter
• Add {{user nwscript04}} if you consider yourself a expert NWScripter

Enigmatical 23:34, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

They're a little over the top; "best game ever"? This isn't a fansite, I think something less hyperbolic would have been more than sufficient. Plus blue text on a black background is a little hard to read. Canonblack 21:55, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

The {{User Neverwinter Nights}} one I didn't do, but how can it be over the top? Its a userbox... obviously you haven't seen many of the other ones out there. But check the authorship and go speak with them. Enigmatical 22:23, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I created {{User:OSborn/NWN2}} based off {{User Neverwinter Nights}} specifically for those wanting a NWN2 userbox. (I haven't really played any other games in the setting.) OSborn 17:53, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

New engine uses DirectX?

Says so in the article but I would like to see a source since I was searching for this on the internet and this was the only page I found that had an answer. Sucks for Mac and Linux gamers if its true.

[1] States that it is using Directx 9.0, I still would like to see a source stating that no mac or linux version is planned.

Read 'em and weep. Frankie

^That's not a official word on the linux/mac port. Thing is, Atari haven't given any official word about NWN2 port, except for bioware who said there would be no linux client, unless told otherwise by atari.

^There is a thread on atariforum where people are signing for a mac/linux port, this thread is very active, mainly users who post a few notes stating they will not support the game unless ports are made available. I have signed there myself as I am using Linux and Mac exclusively and loved NWN. --Skippern 00:45, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[2]

Ferret Specifics

"Resigned" is a very loaded word with no official source stating that is indeed the case. They parted ways but if it was by choice or not has not been said publicly in a official capacity by either Obsidian or Ferret.

Considering he is now working for Bioware I would say "resigned" is the most appropriate term to use. When an employee no longer wishes to work for a company, they hand in a resignation. No company in their right mind would fire the lead designer before the project is finished and all indications (go look at the official forums and NWN 2 News) were that it was his choice. Enigmatical 22:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

"Resigned" implies he left under his own free will/choice. There are NO public records/comments to confirm that is the case. You do not know the specifics of why he left and thus only guessing. The FACTS are we do not know if he was terminated or indeed resigned by choice. -SM

Perhaps then we should use "ceased employment" as it seems to be the only way of putting it to be completely apolitical. I would have to get the post, but I remember ferret himself talking about leaving. It still doesn't indicate the facts but then I dont think Obisidan want people to ever know the facts in this case. Bottom line is he doesn't work there any more right? Enigmatical 23:02, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

You could always ask him: [3]. -- Alec Usticke 05:48, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

LOL... and I am sure that his confidentiality agreement upon leaving will allow him to tell you. When the truth causes nobody harm there is no reason not to say it, so while not factual I think you can imply from the lack of information that we will never know the reality of it. Enigmatical 06:16, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

There are a few different ways that someone could leave employment, among them quitting or being fired. Given what is known about other developers who worked on NWN2, would you quit? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.235.80.125 (talk) 20:16, 24 February 2007 (UTC).

Removal of "Design your own modules to distribute to others or host on the Internet for online play"

I am not sure why the following line was removed (no valid edit summary was given):

Design your own modules to distribute to others or host on the Internet for online play

FYI, the designing of your own modules is definately available, distribution to others is absolutely still available and hosting them on the internet for online play is most assuredly available, though it has been said that you may have to download the walkmeshes seperately (which they are looking into encrypting).

If you beleive this comment should be removed completely, please use this talk page to discuss the reasons why. If it could be modified to read better then by all means go ahead, but removing information about creating your own modules and distributing them is incorrect. Enigmatical 23:17, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

External Links is not a webring

There are hundreds of fan web sites for every piece of major label software ever made. The External Links section does not need to contain your personal pet site. Yes, I am referring to you, and also those other dozen guys doing the same. Frankie

eberronmod.com

Help me understand what I'm missing here, Yare. WarCry.com is a reasonably famous website in itself, yes, but it doesn't establish notability for something posted in the forums. Eberron Mod is unofficial by its own admittance. A Google PageRank of 3 may just mean it's part of a lot of webrings; I am not seeing the inherent notability of this site, and the value of including it, versus having a strong criteria for external links on this page. I do see, however, that you are Technical Director for Eberron Mod, and thus shouldn't be adding links yourself due to a conflict of interest. As we have plenty of external links, I am removing the French language link as well per WP:EL#Foreign_language_links. Sorry. -- nae'blis 20:46, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Community plays a large part in Neverwinter Nights (far more than other mainstream titles). We're trying to run a project and a community site. I'll not waste text here defending it, but I see when checking my site analytics that we've been receiving some 50 unique hits from this article each day. While that is a small amount of hits compared to what we receive from sites like Warcry, the Vault, and Wizards.com, I believe it is evidence that the people reading the Neverwinter Nights 2 wikipedia entry see the information as relevant and useful. If relevant and useful information isn't appropriate for a small inclusion at the very end of a wikipedia article, what is? Yare 21:25, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a reference of things that are, not things that may be in the future. The Eberron Mod is, at the moment, wishful thinking. It doesn't exist yet. It may never exist. Assuming it does eventually list, it may not be significant enough to warrent inclusion. If we listed planned mods, or even limited it to mods that shipped, the Neverwinter Nights page would be an out of control list of mods. Wikipedia is not a link directory. When the Eberron Mod exists, try again.

Secondly, you are linking to your own site. The "Technical Directory" for this mod is listed as "Yare", I think it's reasonable to conclude that you're the same person. I appreciate that you didn't try to hide this connection. Still, it's a general Wikipedia rule that you shouldn't write about yourself and your own work. Let others do so. It eliminates potential concerns that you're just advertising for yourself.

(On a related note, I wouldn't suggest waving a PageRank of 3 around as significant. Most of my friends vanity domains have ranks of 4 or 5. My own vanity domain has a rank of 6.) Alan De Smet | Talk 22:46, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Let's not be naive here. Most articles on wikipedia are started by somebody who has a direct interest in seeing that article included. I'm just an honest guy. As for the pagerank comment, I never said that a page rank of 3 was "significant". Considering, however, that the vast majority of sites on the Internet are PR0, I thought it worth noting. Additionally, the site functions as a modding community for Eberron-related NWN2 projects, and since two major pillars of NWN2 are community and moddability, I don't see why the site faces such stiff resistance given that it epitomizes the two things NWN users are traditionally interested in. Yes, there is a mod project on the site (not yet completed, as you note), but it is also a portal for others interested in Eberron NWN2 content, modding, and adventure modules. As you wish, however. I listed the link because the NWN2 community is interested in it, but if you truly think it detrimental to the integrity of Wikipedia, then by all means delist it. Yare 03:47, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Not to mention that External link should NOT be used to link to possible illegal versions of the game. Needless to say I've removed them, but I'm not sure if an admin or poweruser would be able to remove the history of the site. KDLarsen 22:24, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

removal of NWN2News

To the anonymous user who continues to remove the NWN2News link please read this first. There are many other sites listed which are community sites, some of which are not specific to NWN2 at all (Sorcerer's Palace, NWCitidel, NWN2.WarCry, NeverWiki, even the NWN2Wiki). Please state very clearly why you feel this one site should be removed yet the others left? I have absolutely no association with the news site but feel that your anonymous removal is not warrented. Enigmatical 02:33, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that nwn2news should stay, though the article certainly has a few extraneous links. --Muchness 19:58, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

As the admin of nwn2news I will leave such petty actions to be delt with by those that have the time to do so and my thanks to them. However I just wanted to clarify something in response to one of the edit comments questioning why I stated nwn2news was the "first(oldest) news/community site'. The site went live aug 12 2004, days after nwn2 was announced. I do not know of any other site that did go live dedicated to nwn2 in such a short amount of time. Cetainly if there was one that has the creditials to prove such before the above date I'd be happy to concede the point. However that was my logic for stating such, take it as you will. - SM

NWN2 news is an inconsequential small fansite of which there are thousands for the game. It offers nothing that most other pages, including NWVault don't offer already. Therefore, in accordance with Frankies post above, it should be removed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.149.180.121 (talk • contribs).

I would dispute that comment, here are the stats for the site for Aug 2006: Aug 06 site stats I do not think those numbers reflect a 'small' or 'inconsequential' site, certainly not to the over 31,000 unique visitors or 3.16 million hits last month alone. - SM

Anonymous user 68.149.180.121, you're making yourself look back with your repeated edits. One could easily conclude that your interest isn't in improving Wikipedia, but that you hold a grudge against nwn2news. Every edit you've ever done has been about nwn2news. One of your edits smears User:Enigmatical, claiming "Don't mind Enigmatic, he works for the spamsite" without evidence. Perhaps most damningly, your most recent edit is innocently labeled "Sorted External Links in order of relevance." However the "sorting" amonted to moving a link link one space; hardly an obvious improvement. However, you also deleted the nwn2news site link. Again. It certainly looks like you might have been trying to hide your real intent. If your goal is simply to make Wikipedia better, take a step back. Before making edit more edits to delete the link, continue to discuss it here. Take a break and edit a few other pages you can help with. Alan De Smet | Talk 03:05, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

As to the specific issue of nwn2news: They appear to have original content, including interviews (another). While it could be faked with spam pages, Google believes nwn2news has thousands of pages of content. While it may not be enough to be a useful resource for Wikipedia, I'm not convinced it's an "inconsequential small fansite". Alan De Smet | Talk 03:05, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

We are not in the business of writing a web directory, but -- unlikely as it may seem -- try to write an encyclopedia. I'd suggest removing all links to forums, wikis, community sites, etc. --Pjacobi 11:17, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Then you would have about 250,000 articles to go through and remove all of those as well. Why set a precident? The purpose of external links is to provide additional information and that is what those links to. You put the most notable ones down and leave it at that. Enigmatical 22:49, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia policy is that a small number of external links are appropriate. The goal is to keep it to a tight, highly relevant list. Wikipedia:External links goes into detail. Alan De Smet | Talk 03:01, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Less notable site

To give an example, Sorcerer's Palace is listed, yet this website is not strictly for Neverwinter Nights, it covers all D&D games instead. So given the current list of external links, which should in all reality be listed? A site dedicated to news and other things directly relating to Neverwinter Nights 2? Or a site which covers all bases and is probably listed elsewhere on every other D&D game already? Enigmatical 22:56, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

More details on the actual game perhaps?

Hi, Not a bad review; perhaps change the order around. A description of the official campaign/story should come before descriptions of say toolsets. Also a description of the official campaign should be more than one paragraph. This should be a game review not a review of tool editors. Otherwise not bad. Cheers, Beugnen

I don't think this should be a review at all, but an encyclopedic article. Your other points might still be valid, just wanted to make that clear ;) Sirius81 | Talk

Indeed it shouldn't. This is an encyclopaedic entry. If it were a review it would say something like: As with all of Obsidian's attempts to live up to the precedent set by Bioware (and previously, Black Isle studios) NWN2 is buggy, unfinished, thematically uninspired and reliant on a combat centric, cliché driven plot. It receives note only because of the name it bears but that is where the comparison to the original NWN ends. - that's not enough material for a Wikipedia entry ;) --JamesTheNumberless 11:09, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

And considering how mindbogglingly afwul a game the first one was, that's saying a lot. --Agamemnon2 15:31, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually I never finished the first one, I got bored with it fairly quickly and I'd rather replay Planescape Torment or Knights of the Old Republic, than go back and finish NWN anyday. --JamesTheNumberless 13:55, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Fair go, NWN2 isn't that bad! .... but then again I can't exactly disagree with you on those points either, they're all true :'( (I still enjoyed the game though - minus the buggy parts - plus Obsidian didn't make the unfinished state seem as obvious - unlike in KOTOR 2 :P). But I digress. I agree that we shouldn't have reviews in here - although you can refer to them in a Critical Response section... --Rambutaan 20:33, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

November 19, 2006 edits

I completely shuffled around the content on this page. I tried to base the format on the original Neverwinter Nights page. I also edited quite a bit of text and even added some of my own. I also updated the game infobox. I think the page already looks a lot better, however if this is out of line with what's intended with the page feel free to revert. ;) Geologik 07:31, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Exclusion: "The Persuade skill has been removed and replaced with Bluff and Intimidate (both of which featured in the first game). Bluff now has the same effect at Persuade."

Persuade isn't replaced with Bluff... It's replaced by Diplomacy, and that's why i've replaced it 70.82.40.81 07:00, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

More Information

I've read both this article and the NWN acticle, being interested in these games but having never played them. And as far as this article tells me, this game might as well be a xerox of the first. This article needs to go more in-depth, not only with the game itself, but how it differs from NWN and possibly a more detailed 'Reception' section (having said "the reviews were generally possitive" is hardly enough).

The game has only been out a short while which is why actual gameplay, plot, spoilers, etc. is lacking. I haven't even finished the game yet myself. The games (NWN and NWN2) will be similar in that they use D&D rules and are set in the Forgotten Realms. However, the two vary greatly in story, gameplay, features, etc. Also, this isn't a review site. If you want to read a review about the game check Gamespot or one of the numerous other gaming sites out there. Geologik 01:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't looking at it as a review site, I just wanted to have backup info in the reception instead of just "generally possitive". What was good about it? What was bad?

But now it doesn't matter because someone cut that section all together and replaced it with 'Criticism'. Can we have a possitive section? Cuz right now the article is looking a bit biased against (or does the game really suck?). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 142.167.178.60 (talk) 15:08, 27 December 2006 (UTC).

Taken as whole I think it errs positive; the positive reviews are mentions and cited in the opening. You need to go all the way to be bottom to find the criticisms. If you're keen on working on it, I'd consider revamping "Criticisms" into a "Reactions" or "Critical reception" section, being careful to cite things heavily. So things like "A number of reviews praised how closely the game followed the tabletop D&D rules", followed by two or three citations for specific major sites and magazines that said exactly that. Essentially flesh out the mention of positive reviews at the top and try to summarize what reviewers liked and disliked. — Alan De Smet | Talk 00:28, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Support

Basically none exsistent! Neverwitner Nights 2 developed by Obsidian and produced by Atari, neither of which offer support for the many bugs found within the game and toolset. As for updates... well lets just say the updater that ships with the game doesn't work and any reference to an update on the offical website points back to the ingame updater, which again doesn't work. Both Atari and Obsidian have successfully ripped off many of it's customers - many young kids - taking their hard earned money and just haven't cared enought to answer any support emails.

Okay, I haven't dealt with Obsidian or Atari's customer support, so I don't feel qualified to fix this. But, wow, someone should.209.89.155.128 02:49, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely. I've flagged it. It's probably one of the most flagrant violations of NPOV that I've ever seen. --Grahamdubya 03:44, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

NPC Listing

Someone listed recruitable NPCs on this page. I do not think that is encyclopedic. I am not familiar with the policy on this exactly, if someone know, please discuss or amend the article. --Voidvector 04:44, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Linux/Mac

There is a lot of stuff in here about how the game sucks because it can't be played on Mac or Linux... it's really not NPOV at all, it reads more like a rant on a blog. Not being a Wiki expert I wasn't sure whether to remove it or not but figured I should mention it. 130.88.185.180 22:56, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I just rewrote those things, hope it's better. I tried to be as objective as I can when talking about the development decision to use DirectX, and I moved the gamer reactions to criticism section. --Voidvector 01:43, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

You just made my brain hurt a lot. I came on to this page while it was still biased over the whole Linux/Mac thing, and tried to edit in a few grammar and spelling corrections and went onto this edit page in another tab. By the time I clicked edit it was already changed and until I refreshed i thouht I was mad :( Good work on that though, that was some pretty biased stuff up there before. 81.152.168.224 08:05, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Looks better... I wasn't sure what to do about it really, but it's looking far less biased now. 130.88.185.180 10:31, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

If I remember correctly, an early newsletter on BioWare about Atari planing to release NWN2, it was stated that it was likely a Mac and Linux port to be made to support the large communities on all platforms. This was statement was removed in later newsletters. I guess that a rumor about Mac and Linux versions made the communities rest abit regarding such ports, and didn't contact Oblivion to convince them this was important to us, the fans of NWN1. --62.97.244.2 22:46, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Link Farm

I suggest that Wikipedia is an ecyclopedia, not a link farm or search engine. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Paul Murray (talk • contribs) 06:04, 24 December 2006 (UTC).

Screenshots

Noticed the need screenshot up there, i uploaded some of my screenshots:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Nwn2_screenshot001.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Nwn2_screenshot002.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Nwn2_screenshot003.jpg

Yaesir 21:50, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Distribution Issues

Can we put something in here about how poor the distribution plan was? I remember walking into a Best Buy on 10/31 and finding out their copies would not go on sale until 11/1, and they had very few copies when they did come. Also, a lot of people on the Bioware NWN1 forums said they had pre-orders for the limited edition, but the stores never got one, or enough to fill pre-orders, so they got the vanilla version. And there was no recourse for the buyer. -134.29.155.89 17:11, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I can vouch for that, as I was one of those people that preordered the Limited Edition version at Best Buy and got hosed. Even though I got my money back, I had to spent over a month looking for a limited edition version, which I was intent on getting, since it was sold out everywehre. I finally found one on eBay, but it was an upleasant experience. However, I also suggest adding more to the criticisms section, as the forums are filled with people like myself who have contacted Atari for technical support and have not gotten a single reply, despite numerous attempts over many months. One particularly annoying aspect is the fact that the Update tool does not work for many people, a problem with a cause that was eventually narrowed down, no thanks to Atari, to the program not trusting legal DVD burners and programs such as Nero and refusing to patch. Atari still has not provided any hint of a solution for this problem besides getting a new DVD drive and uninstalling certain programs, which is obviously rediuclous. 69.130.128.156 22:51, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, yuck. That sucks. Now I hear that NWN2 is "bricking" people's DVD drives. I thought the Sony rootkit fiasco was bad, but this? This is BEYOND pathetic. Let's just get a snippet of an official Atari "solution" and throw that in the article. -66.41.27.200 21:01, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Edited Criticisms section with some of the info discussed here. If you don't like it, change it. -66.41.27.200 21:35, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

For the record, I have now removed those criticisms since you apparently couldn't be bothered citing a single source. If you want to restore them, please ensure that they are verifiable. Rogerborg (talk) 23:14, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Sometimes, the best source is on-the-ground reporting, with your own eyes and ears. The distribution issues weren't covered by the media, and were only exposed by forum postings on Bioware's boards, which have gone through a purge or two. So all testimony has been deleted. I'd love to cite it, but the proof was gone by the time I made the note. Please revert the section. Thanks. -NordsternMN (talk) 01:29, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Concision

In a second cleanup attempt, I concised and revised the storyline, and removed the list of races, which is available in a separate article as part of the D&D 3.5 ruleset and in greater detail than the scope of this article. This brought the article below the 32Kb size barrier and appears to improve article flow. I moved several redundant items, merging and moving as appropriate to the game while minimizing the article's comparison to D&D rules and more to the original NWN game. --Spencerian 14:53, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I think that a class and race lists belong here (perhaps on a separate article, if you don't want to lengthen the main article), because Neverwinter Nights is just an implementation of DnD. It doesn't perfectly mirror core Forgotten Realms races and PrCs. For instance, there's no Mystic Theurge, Archmage, Shifter (wasn't the Shifter in NWN1, by the way?). In addition, some subraces aren't OGL, they come from the Forgotten Realms, but aren't as complex. I did like the way you pruned the spoiler, though. Ruijoel 16:08, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Psionics

It lists Illithids as having Psionic Powers, but as far as I'm aware there are no Illithids in the game or even in the Toolset. Are there, or should I add a footnote about their not existing in NWN 2?

The Error Terminator 17:44, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Illithid exist in the Expansion, I don't think they were included in the Original Campaign however.

Small errors in Exclusions part?

I read here that The Infinity-Electron upgrade design changes the mechanics of how art assets are used.. But isn't the infinity engine from earlier games, and is the Aurora engine meant instead?

Also the text The Persuade skill has been removed, and its features transferred to the Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidate skills. If I am correct the bluff and intimidate skills also were in NWN1, so it is just a rename of the skill?

80.57.22.237 18:30, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

No, you are correct, Bluff and Intimidate were added in with the expansion packs, originally Persuade was the only "social" skill in NWN1. StarkeRealm 06:37, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Point of the exclusions part?

Okay some of it makes sense, Horses were said to be in and were dropped; but flying and jumping and 2.5D. These serve little point as exclusions as they were never included or intended.

I'm removing some of the sections which aren't exclusions. Zelphi 10:12, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Qara's and Sand's respective pages?

Why do they need a separate article, when the others do not? Neither of them are universally liked, and I do not think they need a separate article. - Dcstorm097 21:14, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

I believe that Sand and Qara are the only two characters that it is gaurenteed one will betray you during the battle against garius. I haven't actually read there seperate articles, but some explanation as to the situation that makes it so one will allways betray you might be worthy of an entry... not 2 seperate articles though. maybe a section on betrayals in the orginal NWN2 Article though?70.78.84.7 06:08, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Criticism section suffer from a bad case of weasel words

The criticism section contain several instances of the word "many" in key situations. "Many players" have done this and that and had "many problems", without any references but to "the forums", which is a weak reference by itself, even if having a link, which they also don't have. I didn't feel like taking these sentences out though, but this need major improvement to be on par with encyclopedia standards. I added a weasel word template because I think it was highly warranted. I also noticed several claims done on the shipment without any reference, when actually several are needed due to all the claims. I tagged these cases. — Northgrove 22:36, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely correct. For all the bellyaching, the moaners apparently couldn't find one single source to verify their claims. Boom, gone. Rogerborg (talk) 23:16, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

OS X client

It says on "august 21" Macworld discussed an OS X client for NWN2. August 21 when? 1954? 2004? 2007? --74.77.183.155 (talk) 00:57, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Another addon?

Hi, is there another addon planned? ..yep, thats all. I somehow dislike the endings :/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.228.110.212 (talk) 18:02, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Characters

Why do we have a very small list of characters. There are many other 'mandatory' characters in chapter one, such as Bevil and Amie. Although they're only in the one chapter, they still do many things that help the character on his/her quest. And another thing, the construct should be put into trivia. It's not a 'mandatory' character for any of the acts. Darthan the destroyer (talk) 02:48, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

DM Client

It's way beyond me but didn't Obsidian Enternatinment already release the DM client, because in the spash screen main menu there is an option that consists of DM Client as one of the options. This is on the latest version with Mask of the Betrayer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.233.225.222 (talk) 02:24, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

System Requirements Updates

I just got the games a few days ago(both the game and Mask of the betrayer expansion) and both listed in the requirements a Pentium 4 2.0ghz processor. I have a Celeron 440 2.0ghz and the game runs smoothly. By any chance they have improved the game performance through patches and the requirement has changed? 196.12.168.141 (talk) 19:39, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Somewhat off topic, but I had the OC for a long time, and it ran lousy even on my Quad Core. When I recently installed MoTB, things ran a lot better. Subjective, but nonetheless. I didn't bother checking patch notes, to be honest. Yngvarr (t) (c) 20:09, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Class Mistake?

I read the Mask of the Betrayer article and noticed that the spirit shaman is listed as a new class, but in my version of the original campaign, I can be a spirit shaman. I have the gold edition, which comes with NWN2 and MotB, so that could be why.69.254.131.245 (talk) 17:58, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, if you have installed MotB, you can play a spirit shaman in any campaign or module, even those released before MotB. -- Jao (talk) 18:56, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Hy, can someone help me with this, i install the las Expansion( Storm of zehir) and now get stuck in the original campaing in the tavern. the moment when i go to the door to change my party it crash. Help please!!! Sardy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.0.24.67 (talk) 07:32, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Journey to GA

Alright, so...where do we start? Shall I do the reception? — Levi van Tine (t – c) 06:28, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

That would be good. I'll work on the plot section first (needs some real trimming), and maybe the gameplay then. –Drilnoth (T • C) 14:37, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Geez, good luck with that plot. — Levi van Tine (t – c) 13:38, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

K I freshened up reception and reworded the second paragraph in the lead to reflect it. My next step is going to be figuring out what to do with the expansion packs—personally, I think they should be a subsection in Reception. The Versions/re-releases and Mac sections need to be rearranged too, so I'll marinate on that one for a while. — Levi van Tine (t – c) 13:38, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Great work! I plan to work on the plot sometime this week... sorry about the delay. This is gonna be fun. ;) –Drilnoth (T • C) 13:51, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

I've cleaned up and rearranged the Mac, release, and expansions sections. I think that part looks pretty good now. — Levi van Tine (t – c) 11:29, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Awesome! I hope to really start on the plot today (sorry about the delays!) –Drilnoth (T • C) 12:56, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

I went ahead and started on the plot. Hope I didn't steal your thunder, Drilnoth. Anyways, unlike Torment, I've actually played this game, so I know a bit about the plot. The story section could still be trimmed, though. — Levi van Tine (t – c) 09:15, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

It's okay... I'm just really sorry I didn't get to work on it sooner. I just have so many different things that I'm working on on-wiki, and there's only a certain amount of time. Anyway, if you played the game it probably makes more sense for you to have done it, anyway. Let me know what else I can help with, and I'll stick that right near the top of my to-do list. Great work, by the way! –Drilnoth (T • C) 13:37, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Development is done, or nearly so. All that's left now is Gameplay. Probably more video-game jargony than other sections, so I'll get to work on it ASAP. — Levi van Tine (t – c) 15:13, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Excellent work! Glad to see you've been keeping up with this! :) BOZ (talk) 18:51, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Neverwinter Nights 2/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

   Well-written. Just mind the minor punctuation errors that I have corrected.

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

   The second half of the first paragraph and the entire third paragraph in the Plot subsection are unsourced. Please add citations to verifiable sources.

   Don't really know what to say about this one—you're not gonna find reviews or other reliable secondary sources detailing events that far into the game, and citing the game itself is impractical because everything in the Plot section is a summary of the game itself. The game's narrator doesn't turn and say "At the end of Act I, the party dispatches the githyanki, rescues Shandra, and learns of the origin of the shards," you know? — Levi van Tine (t – c) 02:49, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

   Agreed; although for FA citations (even if to things like quotes from the game) are needed, as with Planescape: Torment, although I don't see why they're so essential (for the plot section only) for a GA. Certainly the rest of the article needs good citations, the plot is basically "sourced" to the game itself. –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 02:53, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

   There's got to be something we can do here. I am wary about removing it entirely because that would fragment that whole section. Perhaps there is a way to eliminate the detail there and use the other sources before and after those unsourced portions. I'll try and see what I can find. Remember that, per WP:WAF, while secondary sources are preferred, primary sources can also be used, provided content stays in a real-world perspective. MuZemike 19:29, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

   I don't know if it's as possible to do here, but I've been keeping an eye on the Planescape FAC, and I like what Drilnoth and Jimmy Blackwing have been doing to source the plot summary. The difference is that there, they have a copy of the script to work with, so like I say it may not be possible to do the same thing here if that sort of access is not possible. BOZ (talk) 22:27, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

   I'm going to go ahead and pass for right now, because I have a strong feeling that there is at least one source out there that is verifiable for this. After having read a walkthrough on Act 2 of the official game guide by BradyGames, I'm sure this information would be in here in regards to Acts 1 and 3, respectively. I would suggest someone get their hands on that game guide, because I'm about 95% certain it's going to be in there. MuZemike 01:22, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

   Very comprehensive.

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   The boxart does not have a fair-use rationale. The other images' fair-use rationales need to be strengthened up a bit. Spell out why the images are necessary to the understanding to those who read the article; I prefer to use the {{non-free use rationale}} template as that spells out specifically what is required per WP:NFCC. All of the images also need to be reduced in size, preferably to around 256px (I tried to with the boxart but had to revert because my Linux paint program is not very good in image resizing as far as quality is concerned).

   I went ahead and strengthened the fair-use rationales. MuZemike 19:29, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

   GAN placed on hold until the necessary improvements can be made. MuZemike 17:45, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Other things to watch for (for future reference):

• Ref tags should be formatted as <ref name="foo" /> instead of <ref name="foo"/>; that is, a space between the right quotation mark and the slash. This is used for proper XHTML formatting.
• Don't use forced image-resizing in the images in the body of the article, as this goes against WP:MOS#Images and can pose some usability problems.
• Use {{vgrelease}} and {{vgratings}} templates in the infobox, and stay away from using flagicons.
• Watch out for overlinking. (I still need to go through and correct this at the time of this review.) Common rule of thumb is once in the lead, once in the infobox, and once in the body. In citations, publisher should only be wikilinked once.
• Try to stay away from one-paragraph sections or subsections if at all possible. I have combined some subsections and removed one. This can also help take the TOC more concise.

This should help you as this article approaches FA. MuZemike 17:45, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the review; I'll try to work on some of these soon. –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 19:30, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, thank you! I put in the nomination, but others did much more of the work than I did. BOZ (talk) 22:23, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Passed. Good job! Find the sources per above before pushing toward FA, however, because this will be shot down for that. MuZemike 01:22, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Awesome, thanks! :) BOZ (talk) 01:28, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 01:47, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Remarks

• Here's something that I notice hasn't been covered in much (if any) detail by this article: One of the biggest criticisms of the game was the relatively modest graphics performance. It was released with fairly high hardware requirements (for that time) yet showed only minimal improvements in graphics quality (over NWN). At the highest graphics settings, this game will literally bring even a relatively high end system to its knees.[4][5] By comparison, Oblivion has very efficient graphics on the PC, at least in my experience. :-)

• Does anybody have access to the Neverwinter Nights 2: Official Strategy Guide? I think that may be able to provide the necessary sources for citing the Plot section of this article.

Thanks.—RJH (talk) 21:56, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Small pictures?

There all really small.. I can barely tell what there supposed to be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.187.75.183 (talk) 23:31, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Mysteries of Westgate

Should this really be considered an expansion? I don't think they ever said it was an expansion, it's just a premium module.Pyrotics (talk) 21:19, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Load Times?

There really isn't anything about the load times, which can range from 2 to twenty minutes, aside from a brief offhand remark. Since it hasn't been mentioned, does anyone have further information, such as if that was ever fixed? 72.77.100.90 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:29, 10 September 2009 (UTC).

If you've got a reliable source that talks about it, feel free to add it. 204.153.84.10 (talk) 22:55, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

comparing NWN to NWN2, questionable comment

I think I'm going to remove this comment: "Reviewers were generally in agreement that the game was superior to its predecessor, Neverwinter Nights" It cites two reviewers, who are not a proxy for "reviewers in general". Just look at the metacritic score for NWN(91%) versus NWN2 (82%). If anything, the reviewers generally thought it was a lesser game according to metacritic.01:52, 30 March 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.190.31.229 (talk)

How about "These two reviews called the game superior to its predecessor" (or something to that effect) - assuming the two reviews state such a thing? 24.148.0.83 (talk) 04:29, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree that this sentence should be reworded or removed; it doesn't strike me as an accurate represention of the critical reception of the two titles. I'd support a reword along the lines of, "While some reviewers considered Neverwinter Nights 2 a better game than its predecessor,[cites] it received lower overall review ratings.[cite metacritic and gamerankings]" --Muchness (talk) 21:33, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

I have taken a stab at a reword but feel free to rework/copy-edit as needed. I do think however that a simple revert to the previous wording would be problematic for the reasons stated above. --Muchness (talk) 18:07, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

A-class assessment

I'm nominating this article for A-class. — Mr. Van Tine (t – c) 11:13, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

• A first look at the prose looks good. There are however dead refs that need to be fixed, there is no alt text for the article images (as seen here), the image File:NWN2Layout.jpg should probably be scaled to about 3/4 of its current size (and the "low_resolution" parameter updated with the correct pixel count), and File:Nwn2boxart.jpg should probably use Template:Video game cover fur. I'll have more in the future, but for now that's a start. Looks pretty good though! --Teancum (talk) 19:05, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

• Box art FUR has been covered. I would suggest resizing the screenshot mentioned to something like 300px in width. Salavat (talk) 13:05, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

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