Talk:Nature Farming

Closed merger proposal (Outcome: Do not merge)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

I see the discussion below as a consensus not to merge, and have removed the merger tag. --Belgrano (talk) 19:30, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

This page should not be merged with No-till farming in my opinion. Fukuoka's system has many facets not directly related to the topic of tillage, and no-till is implemented in many other systems quite different from Fukuoka's. --Belgrano 20:41, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree, but i think this article should be renamed "Natural farming", which is the most common name used for it. --Cacuija (my talk) 21:17, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

That seems sensible. Another idea also occurs to me: Since there's already good content on this topic in the Masanobu Fukuoka article, would it make sense just to make this a redirect to that page? The Natural Farming concept we're talking about here does relate directly to Fukuoka as an individual thinker. --Belgrano 13:47, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I think that the subject of his achievements should be elaborated upon in a separat article. A redirect to the Fukuoka article would inherently limit the amount of specialised content about his actual methods that could be added. Eventually, this would lead to a new article anyway. To address the renaming idea, I think redirect pages to this article could easily include a "Natural farming" redirect page, with less trouble than renaming. --Neotribal42 12:29, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

I also think it should not be merged. No-till Farming as it's commonly reffered to is a rather industial approach to farming using for example herbicides to burn the weeds of the soil. Quite contrary to Fukuoka's methods! Montydog

Don't merge most definitely! Fukuoka-sensei's ways are not identical with no-till farming, while they include it they're so much more than it. No weeding, no fertilizing, no pesticides or much other chemicals, no pruning and very substantial philosophy (also knowledge & theories) underpinning the practical ways. Expand this page, the proposer of the merger must not know Fukouka's ways well, so an expanded page here would give all the knowledge and justify itself for those who don't know ('bootstrap the general knowledge'). macropneuma —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.33.163.65 (talk) 04:22, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Nature Farming, moved to.

Refer to: the linked Japanese page: 自然農法!

Move to Nature Farming which translates 自然農法 (shizen nōhō)—the original Japanese by author Masanobu Fukuoka, and by authors Mokichi Okada, Yoshikazu Kawaguchi (自然農 (shizen nō)), etc.. (Or the much more loosely defined, internationally-used, and less distinctive "Natural Farming". Shared by many authors worldwide, eg. many softly-defined indistinct meanings of "Natural Farming", which cannot conclusively get distinguished from conventional farming nor from industrial farming. For example several books and editions by Pat Coleby called "Natural Farming", many US books called "Natural Farming", etc., ... . These primary authors of Nature Farming, Masanobu Fukuoka and Mokichi Okada explicitly specifically define it very distinctively from Conventional/Industrial Farming in Japan or elsewhere, as in 'Western' countries.).

The phrase " 'do-nothing' farming" translates the much more rarely used Japanese of " '無為'農法" (mui nōhō) not-included-in-Masanobu-Fukuoka's-declaration (which is 自然農法). Ref.: latest book reference 2001.

Added mention of Mokichi Okada - his page needs a lot more work, it doesn't yet even mention his developments of farming principles, practises & philosophy; Which are for example, shown in his Japanese biography page: 岡田茂吉.

This page needs the Japanese page translated, and then as much as possible of it's relevant content added to this article here (in elegantly-translated-for-farming-English of course).--macropneuma 03:05, 9 November 2010 (UTC) –Update, correction of Japanese Wikipedia interwiki link to Ja: Mokichi Okada page, long ago i had copy+pasted the Fukuoka Ja characters by mistake. --macropneuma 20:40, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Disputed

The use of the term Nature farming which is more commonly applied to Okada's ideas versus Natural farming which is applied to Fukuoka's ideas.

This topic should be about Mokichi Okada's ideas, including Kyusei Nature Farming, or link to a section on Okada's topic until it is properly mature enough to have a topic of its own. --Iyo-farm (talk) 16:19, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Evidently wrong – diametrically so!; No sources at all, let alone reliable sources, have been provided above! Evidently wrong –diametrically so!– according to reliable sources including those within: 自然農法, 福岡正信, etc., and according to the extensive 168 page monograph: Hui-Lian Xu (2001) "NATURE FARMING In Japan" Research Signpost, T. C. 37/661(2), Fort Post Office, Trivandrum - 695023, Kerala, India. –a partly–scholarly monograph/book, providing much detailed, sourced, and relevant history, language clarifications and evidence (at least). Hence rvv, of evidently a gross POV!—and an entirely–unheeding, unilateral one at that!—for what real motives it was done, the rest of us cannot be knowing for sure.--macropneuma 10:40, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Naming convention

The naming convention I am using here is to capitalize both words as per a proper noun for both "Natural Farming" (Fukuoka's method) and "Nature Farming" (Okada's method).

The logic behind it is to remove any confusion that such farming systems are simply "natural farming", as in using natural as a purely descriptive adjective, because ultimately no farming is "natural". Ditto "nature farming", as in 'farming natures', on its own does make sense (e.g. potato farming = farming potatoes, nature farming = farming nature).

The source use for this division was 'Sustainable Agriculture: Definition and Terms' published by the Agricultural Research Service, U.S. Department of Agriculture. --Iyo-farm (talk) 08:10, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

From topic page

Taken from topic page. Requests for "better source" from User:Macropneuma.

I am sorry but anything that includes a statement like, "Without yet enough of a reliable source for my own scholarly high standards, the reliable sources in hand do make it is ALMOST clear that ... rings WP:OR bells for me. Ongoing travails on the Masanobu Fukuoka and Natural farming topics encourage me to err on the side of caution with stuff like this.

It may well be true, it may not. We going to be disadvantaged here as most references are in Japanese but the topic is still valid and worth developing.

"The source removed here is not a reliable source, but a perfunctory, unreliable source, for the statement that nature farming was established in 1936 by Okada. That source did not reference its statement about "nature farming in 1936" which contradicts Mokichi Okada's own primary sources, let alone MORE reliable sources than primary sources, all of which make it much clearer that Okada did establish nature farming definitions and practices in 1950, before that in 1936 he established strictly only fertiliser free farming. Okada's pre–1950 fertiliser free farming work and Okada's 1950 onwards nature farming work are not the same (at all in Okada's own primary sources). Then in turn there is much less in common between those two ways of Okada's farming, than there is in common between Okada's 1950 onwards nature farming and Fukuoka's 1937 onwards nature farming. Without yet enough of a reliable source for my own scholarly high standards, the reliable sources in hand do make it is ALMOST clear that in 1950 Okada learned about and re–used the name 自然農法 nature/natural farming from Fukuoka who had started to do it and use the name 自然農法 in 1937 and in 1947 published his first book which includes 自然農法 subject matter, along with 無 subject matter. This 2nd source is not reliable at all it is just another copy and paste making of list with citations by another US bureaucracy, USDA, without any demonstration of fact checking nor peer review at all, nor any scholarly writing work directly addressing in details, questioning, giving the background of and scrutinising the question of these definitions of nature, nature farming and natural farming. There are much better and recent, actually scholarly peer reviewed, sources than this which directly address, question, give the background and scrutinise the question of these definitions." - User:Macropneuma.

Apart from point scoring and telling us how brilliant you are, exactly what point are you trying to make macropneuma? That Okada "stole a trademark" from Fukuoka, or that Okada followed Fukuoka's method until developed his own?

Thanks, --Iyo-farm (talk) 00:59, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

"Without yet enough of a reliable source for my own scholarly high standards, the reliable sources in hand do make it ALMOST clear that in 1950 Okada learned about and re–used the name 自然農法 nature/natural farming from Fukuoka, who had started to do 自然農法 and use the name 自然農法 in 1937, and in 1947 published his first book, which includes 自然農法 subject matter, along with 無 subject matter. "

--macropneuma 04:29, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Is it written that Okada went to study with Fukuoka, or did he just read a book and then start to develop his own ideas?

It is still not clear to me what you actually want. Can you tell us in short, simple sentences please? --Iyo-farm (talk) 15:27, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Better sources

--macropneuma 15:50, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

'Better' or 'other' references ... and to support what points of view?

To be honest, I think the topic is adequately referenced and comprehensive enough for a Wikipedia topic and would not benefit from a whole lot more non-notable trivia. It's not meant to be a compendium of all this Fukuoka. You really should start a Wikia wikpedia just on natural farming. I mean no disrespect by that. --Iyo-farm (talk) 20:14, 25 July 2012 (UTC)