Talk:National Register of Historic Places listings in Bexar County, Texas
Latest comment: 2 years ago by Maile66 in topic oddity in Voelcker Farmstead Historic District document
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Incorrect Image Shown edit
The image shown as Brook Army Medical Center on the Bexar County (San Antonio) list of historic designated sites is actually a picture of a new hospital facility that was built on the opposite side of Fort Sam Houston from BAMC. I forget the name of the new facility, and though it is casually known as Brook, it is not the building designated as a listed historic site. I don't have a picture of the old BAMC on Stanley Road. Anyone? 72.181.127.66 (talk) 00:23, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
Informational - Texas Historic Districts on the NRHP edit
@Doncram, Nv8200pa, Renelibrary, 25or6to4, Fortguy, and Another Believer: - Pinging at random, since I have no idea who is active on Texas or this project anymore. But here is sourcing info, if anyone wants it.
For anyone wanting to source National Register of Historic Places in Texas listings, or Recorded Texas Historic Landmark listings, the Texas Historic Sites Atlas is an excellent resource. When you pull up your preferred listing, click on the Files tab for the link to the NRHP nomination details in PDF. And FYI ... the PDF I used on San Antonio Downtown and River Walk Historic District contained a table with all the listings and particulars on it. The older the nominations are, the less likely the orderly presentation of the details on the NRHP form. — Maile (talk) 14:22, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
- "Texas Historic Sites Atlas". atlas.thc.state.tx.us. Texas Historical Commission.
Below are the Historic Distric listings for Bexar County
- Alamo Plaza Historic District - needs work
- Blue Star Street Industrial Historic District (date listed 6/24/1994)
- Bungalow Colony Historic District (date listed 7/8/2003)
- King William Historic District (date listed 1/20/1972)
- Lavaca Neighborhood Historic District (date listed 7/24/1999)
- Main and Military Plazas Historic District (Period of Significance and Boundary Increase) — Bexar County (date listed 10/7/2019)
- Mission Parkway Historic-Archeological District (date listed 10/6/1975)
- Old San Antonio City Cemeteries Historic District (59 cemeteries - or maybe 32?) date listed 10/11/2000
- Source of the River District (date listed 7/31/1978)
- South Alamo Street-South Mary's Street Historic District (date listed 10/4/1984)
- Southern Pacific Depot Historic District (date listed 2/1/1979)
- National Register Listing — Atlas Number 2079002917 (85 pages, pp2-4 lists properties, many maps and b/w imaes)
- Trinity University Historic District - 29 contributing properties, 5 non contributing (date listed 5/29/2018)
- National Register Listing — Atlas Number 2100002471
- "NRHP Registration Form for Trinity University Historic District" (PDF). Texas Historic Sites Atlas. Texas Historic Commission. Retrieved 16 September 2021.
- United States San Antonio Arsenal District (period of significance expansion) (date listed 12/30/1969)
- National Register Listing — Atlas Number 2069000200 (169 pages, many b/w images, details on properties involved)
- Voelcker Farmstead Historic District (date listed 7/11/2014)
- Comment: Hi Maile, getting development of NRHP articles in Texas is apparently hard: Texas has the very lowest percentage (13.1%) of all states and territories (which average 85.3%) in terms of percentage of articles created (per regular report wp:NRHPPROGRESS; see wp:NRHPPROGRESSTX for Texas by-county reporting).
- The note above may be helpful, and, sure, I'll consider developing one or all of the above HDs in Bexar County, especially if anyone else would agree to join me in the effort. Recently I have been working more on articles in Colorado, by the way, but I have participated in cooperative article drives in Wisconsin and other areas.
- About the atlas.thc.state.tx.us source, please do see brief coverage of that in wp:NRHPHELP guidance to NRHP editors (wp:NRHPHELPTX) for its Texas section). I think it covers this source okay, but the explanation there may in fact be somewhat outdated, i am not sure. Please feel free to edit there. --Doncram (talk) 19:50, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
- Doncram - Texas (and other states) are rather hit and miss on sourcing. Texas does a little better than some in at least providing a site for the property listings. In fact, they do real well at that. However, it then becomes a sometimes elusive search on corroborating sourcing. I find that Old San Antonio City Cemeteries Historic District might never be completed by me. ImDB, is not considered a reliable source. Texas Historic Site pdf ran (I think) for 233 pages - and I finally stopped the download of the page, because it was too slow and I was concerned about a virus or something. The San Antonio Conservation Society Foundation Library had a complete list, but no details. Other than that source, there isn't much out there I'd use on the cemeteries. — Maile (talk) 20:24, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
- An alternative downloading is possible at National Archives (see instructions in wp:NRHPHELP). I just started downloading https://catalog.archives.gov/OpaAPI/media/40971247/content/electronic-records/rg-079/NPS_TX/00000772.pdf at 05 minutes past the hour, and find, well, it takes a while... hmm it is 16 past the hour... --Doncram (talk) 01:16, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks. What's an easy way to explain this ... hmmm ... if I have to spend a lot of time on the technicalities of getting the basic information, I somewhat lose interest. Depending on what it is, of course. By comparison, it took me maybe only a day or so to complete San Antonio Downtown and River Walk Historic District. And most of that was my own nitpicking on formatting the wikitable to my satisfaction. The cemeteries look like great historical information that we should have in a table format or something. I think we would be amiss if we just did a sort of a slap-dash on this one. But if it takes a lot of time to just get the basic information, I think my time can be better put to use on something else. — Maile (talk) 01:43, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
- Well Maile i noticed that before 32 minutes past the hour, it had stopped, and I could see all the pages. Then I went to save to a directory, and that was taking a long time and i went away. But it finished and now I can open it easily and immediately. The file turns out to be 242,329 kb, so unusually big, i.e. a poor scanninew ng job IMO for just a 239 page document, even if it includes 59 photos as it does. Sounds interesting to me: 31 contiguous burial grounds on 103 acres (42 ha), all est. btwn 1853 and 1904, very different among themselves, long description on each one. I say just leave the download running sometime, and then you have it at your fingertips. I may add a bit to your draft. --Doncram (talk) 13:07, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
- @Doncram: Yes, please feel free to add to my draft. WikiProject Cemeteries is a fairly new project, and I am pleased they started up. Over the years, I've created a few categories and articles on cemeteries (in Texas and elsewhere), and I am fascinated by the history those old cemeteries reveal. Sometimes a cemetery is all that's left as evidence that a community used to exist in a location. Re the 32-minute download - you have more patience and faith than I do. I'd be freaked out my computer might have been overtaken. — Maile (talk) 13:31, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
- I do have experience with sometimes long download times for NRHP docs scanned badly (IMO), among those scanned and available at National Archives. FYI this download took somewhere between 11 minutes (16 less 05) and 27 minutes (32 less 05). I didn't see when it stopped. I think the way that I saved the downloaded file to a specific directory on my PC might have taken as long or longer, though. Am adding a bit now. Thanks! --Doncram (talk) 13:42, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
- @Doncram: Yes, please feel free to add to my draft. WikiProject Cemeteries is a fairly new project, and I am pleased they started up. Over the years, I've created a few categories and articles on cemeteries (in Texas and elsewhere), and I am fascinated by the history those old cemeteries reveal. Sometimes a cemetery is all that's left as evidence that a community used to exist in a location. Re the 32-minute download - you have more patience and faith than I do. I'd be freaked out my computer might have been overtaken. — Maile (talk) 13:31, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
- Well Maile i noticed that before 32 minutes past the hour, it had stopped, and I could see all the pages. Then I went to save to a directory, and that was taking a long time and i went away. But it finished and now I can open it easily and immediately. The file turns out to be 242,329 kb, so unusually big, i.e. a poor scanninew ng job IMO for just a 239 page document, even if it includes 59 photos as it does. Sounds interesting to me: 31 contiguous burial grounds on 103 acres (42 ha), all est. btwn 1853 and 1904, very different among themselves, long description on each one. I say just leave the download running sometime, and then you have it at your fingertips. I may add a bit to your draft. --Doncram (talk) 13:07, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks. What's an easy way to explain this ... hmmm ... if I have to spend a lot of time on the technicalities of getting the basic information, I somewhat lose interest. Depending on what it is, of course. By comparison, it took me maybe only a day or so to complete San Antonio Downtown and River Walk Historic District. And most of that was my own nitpicking on formatting the wikitable to my satisfaction. The cemeteries look like great historical information that we should have in a table format or something. I think we would be amiss if we just did a sort of a slap-dash on this one. But if it takes a lot of time to just get the basic information, I think my time can be better put to use on something else. — Maile (talk) 01:43, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
- An alternative downloading is possible at National Archives (see instructions in wp:NRHPHELP). I just started downloading https://catalog.archives.gov/OpaAPI/media/40971247/content/electronic-records/rg-079/NPS_TX/00000772.pdf at 05 minutes past the hour, and find, well, it takes a while... hmm it is 16 past the hour... --Doncram (talk) 01:16, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
- Doncram - Texas (and other states) are rather hit and miss on sourcing. Texas does a little better than some in at least providing a site for the property listings. In fact, they do real well at that. However, it then becomes a sometimes elusive search on corroborating sourcing. I find that Old San Antonio City Cemeteries Historic District might never be completed by me. ImDB, is not considered a reliable source. Texas Historic Site pdf ran (I think) for 233 pages - and I finally stopped the download of the page, because it was too slow and I was concerned about a virus or something. The San Antonio Conservation Society Foundation Library had a complete list, but no details. Other than that source, there isn't much out there I'd use on the cemeteries. — Maile (talk) 20:24, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
- @Doncram: I moved the Old San Antonio City Cemeteries Historic District from my user space to main space. Thanks for your help. — Maile (talk) 19:59, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
oddity in Voelcker Farmstead Historic District document edit
Hey, the NRHP document for Voelcker Farmstead Historic District (found by following link given above, then drilling in) is a weird one: its front page indicates the location is supposed to be restricted (so the address is blacked out), and there is other blacked-out stuff in the document, but the document on page 34 includes an aerial map that completely identifies the location. By 2014, I would have thought writers/nominators/officials involved woulda known that keeping the location secret would be impossible. This one was deemed "an outstanding representation of a family dairy farm from the area known as “Buttermilk Hill” in Bexar County, Texas....Louis Voelcker acquired the future dairy farm in 1917 ... [It has a] wooden, 20-cow milking barn (ca. 1925). / With a herd of 100 dairy cows, the Voelcker Dairy became one of the largest dairies on “Buttermilk Hill.” The dairy herd was sold in 1947. I dunno, is this very interesting or not? --Doncram (talk) 20:01, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
Doncram below is more info on Voelcker Farmstead. — Maile (talk) 01:27, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
- Voelcker Farmstead Historic District (date listed 7/11/2014)
- Spencer, Gayle Brennan (2010). Last farm standing on Buttermilk Hill : Voelcker roots run deep in Hardberger Park. San Antonio, Tex.: LBJ CommuniCo for the Max and Minnie Tomerlin Voelcker Fund. ISBN 9780981908915.
other stuff continued from above edit
- I don't know, really. As I think I said above, the NRHP folks have evolved in how they document, and what is important, they only recently made it more ordered as we use it. For the one I did on San Antonio Downtown and River Walk Historic District, I just went by what would be some kind of order of the listings, and then looked for something of interest to say overall. In this case, the architects who were involved were pretty interesting. Sometimes, you just have to wing it and hope you've put something out there that (1) won't be immediately reverted by who knows whom; (2) and might be reasonably attention getting to someone. In the case of Bexar County, I think of tourism for general interest. But, that's just me. — Maile (talk) 20:31, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
- I think the topic is worth a Wikipedia article; i personally am not thrilled about it. The historic district for Trinity University (Texas) one looks more substantial and interesting, involving new construction technique and designs by architect O'Neil Ford. But with 26 contributing buildings, it is also a bit harder to start, even. By the way, "trash Trin" was almost the motto of my school, about beating a different Trinity in sports. --Doncram (talk) 21:23, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
- Re Trinity University Historic District – to each his own, I guess. I bet that would have an audience, and it's recent enough that pp 11–12 of the PDF have all the buildings in a nice grid. All but four of the buildings had the same design team. A broad internet search shows they were involved in a lot of designing university layouts. It looks like that historic district is pretty much the campus. You should give it a shot. — Maile (talk) 22:37, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
- And the Bungalow Colony Historic District one (with this NRHP nom, is about a housing area at the former Kelly Air Force Base created for officers and families and servants(!) before and during WWII. Significant for architecture and association with military figures such as Frank P. Lahm. The listing was in 2003; i wonder if the area survives or has been demolished. But, hmm, the 28 photos from 1991–2000 show some very nice looking houses. Oh, hmm, yes the colony does still exist, as can be seen in Google Streetview at 29°22′45″N 98°33′41″W / 29.379115°N 98.561259°W. It would really help if there were some photos, but I don't see any in
Media related to Kelly Air Force Base at Wikimedia Commons or anywhere else. Maile, you're not in Texas, are you. User:Fortguy? --Doncram (talk) 04:36, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
- And the Bungalow Colony Historic District one (with this NRHP nom, is about a housing area at the former Kelly Air Force Base created for officers and families and servants(!) before and during WWII. Significant for architecture and association with military figures such as Frank P. Lahm. The listing was in 2003; i wonder if the area survives or has been demolished. But, hmm, the 28 photos from 1991–2000 show some very nice looking houses. Oh, hmm, yes the colony does still exist, as can be seen in Google Streetview at 29°22′45″N 98°33′41″W / 29.379115°N 98.561259°W. It would really help if there were some photos, but I don't see any in
- I have no photo equipment. The only two Texas-based photographers (and excellent ones) that come to mind are @Nv8200pa and Renelibrary:. — Maile (talk) 10:16, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
- I'll stub out at Draft:Bungalow Colony Historic District and hope for pics? --Doncram (talk) 05:50, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
- User:Nv8200pa kindly visited the Bungalow district and got a number of pics, now at Bungalow Colony Historic District, thanks! User:25or6to4, thank you for planning to go there...and you certainly still can to get more pics there, and do watch the draft develop now (perhaps highlighting more wanted)...but it would also be great if you would visit other San Antonio area HDs towards broader development as was originally suggested on this page. --Doncram (talk) 17:55, 19 September 2021 (UTC)