Talk:National Mall/Archive 1

Archive 1

National Mall description and boundaries

The description of the National Mall is very inaccurate. The National Mall includes the Mall, the White House, Presidents' Park, Washington Monument, and West Potomac Park. The Mall is proper term for the area from the Capitol to Washington Monument. The accurate use of the terms "National Mall" and "the Mall" is something that many people struggle with including some of the media people who put together NPS websites. Eym0111 16:09, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

• This post may be a year old, but it is absolutely true; the description of the National Mall is inaccurate. As far as the NPS is concerned, the Jefferson and Lincoln Memorials are both on the National Mall. The current description even contradicts the rest of the page as the MLK speech was at the Lincoln Memorial and the top picture looks over the Reflecting Pool. This should be fixed as soon as possible. ColonialMx 18:56, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

• According to the National Park Service, the official boundaries of the National Mall are Constitution and Pennsylvania Avenues on the north, 1st Street, NW on the east, Independence and Maryland Avenues on the south, and 14th Street, NW on the west, with the exception of the section of land bordered by Jefferson Drive on the north, Independence Avenue on the south, and by 12th and 14th Streets respectively on the east and west, which the U.S. Department of Agriculture administers. Neither the Capitol grounds, the Washington Monument grounds, the Lincoln Memorial, nor the Jefferson Memorial are within the official boundaries of the Mall. For further information, see the National Park Service's National Register of Historic Places nomination form for the National Mall. I have added this information to the article. Corker1 (talk) 20:10, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

• So here is the general issue I see:

The naming and description are confusing. The "National Mall and Memorial Parks" is the name of the park and extends to the Lincoln Memorial ("At the heart of our nation's capital, the National Mall and Memorial Parks is home to iconic structures and rich history. Plan your visit to make the most of your time in this exciting public space." -NPS), as well as the group that oversees it, from what I can tell.

The NPS's map of the park even labels "National Mall and Memorial Parks" over the western section and "The Mall" over the eastern (http://www.nps.gov/nacc/index.htm, "View Map" on the left).

The point is, the description is confusing and should be clarified. It doesn't help that when you go to other articles, such as the Lincoln Memorial Reflecting Pool, that says that it's on the National Mall.

I clearly don't know enough to through and fix it all so I'm asking for a discussion and maybe for someone with more knowledge to maybe help clear things up in the articles. 162.17.220.41 (talk) 20:06, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

• I've studied the border of the Mall quite a bit over the past week, and I've basically come to 2 major different definitions:

(1) The portion protected by the NRHP, which is the area between Constitution, Independence, and 3rd* and 14th west, less the Department of Agriculture area, and the two small triangles in the NE and SE corners cut off by Pennsylvania and Maryland respectively.

(2) The larger definition used by the NPS, which covers from 3rd to the Potomac, Constitution to the north, Independence to the south. But also includes the area bounded by Independence to the north; the Potomac to the SW; and Raoul Wallenberg, Maine Ave, and the railroad tracks to the east.

Both of these definitions are cited by official sources already existing. If you'd like to dispute that both of these (official) definitions exist, let's have a discussion about it. McKay (talk) 13:24, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

• The National Park Service (NPS) operates a unit named "National Mall and Memorial Parks". This unit has three areas that contain open space, monuments and/or museums and other structures:

(1) National Mall

(2) East Potomac Park

(3) West Potomac Park

An NPS map at http://www.nps.gov/nacc/planyourvisit/upload/NACCmap1.pdf identifies the locations of this unit and the three areas within the unit. (The external links section of National Mall cites this NPS map as "Map of the National Mall"). 162.17.220.41 comments that this map labels "National Mall and Memorial Parks" over the western section and "The Mall" over the eastern on the left" . In response to this comment, I note that the label "National Mall and Memorial Parks" has a different font (with wider spacing) than does the labeling for each of the three areas within the unit. The differences between the fonts shows that these three areas are all within the "National Mall and Memorial Parks" unit.

The "larger definition" of the National Mall that McKay describes is an area that, according to the map, contains both "The Mall" and much of West Potomac Park.

In 1981, the NPS identified the boundaries of the National Mall in a form that nominated the Mall for listing on the National Register of Historic Places (NRHP). (Note that the resultant NRHP listing was honorary. NRHP listing does not provide any legal protection to a property. See: National Register of Historic Places#Properties Listed). These were the "official" boundaries of the National Mall until 2011, when federal legislation transferred jurisdicion of the easternmost portion of the area to the Architect of the Capitol.

Although NPS officially defined the area of the National Mall in 1981, many people consider the "larger definition" to be the area of the National Mall itself. The author of the NPS document entitled "Foundation Statement for the National Mall and Pennsylvania Avenue National Historic Park" (presently reference no. 3 in National Mall) was apparently one of these people.

I have revised the "Boundaries of the National Mall" section of National Mall to clarify these distinctions. Corker1 (talk) 01:04, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

• The current version of the document is better than it was, i.e. last month, but the current article seems to have the POV that the NRHP document is "official", when more updated postings are available. The sentence at the end of the border section seems to imply that that map is vastly inferior to the NHRP border. Not to mention the NPS themselves state that several other things are part of the mall like the Lincoln Memorial and the Washington monument. And the article seems to presume that only one (NPS) map is in error. There are several (NPS) maps (some physical) that have the mall as larger than the NHRP border. McKay (talk) 19:28, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Barack Obama seems to also concur with the larger borders: "What gives me hope is what I see when I look out across this mall, for in these monuments . . ." (at the "We Are One" Concert, Jan 18 2009) McKay (talk) 20:12, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Also, some of the things I've been reading seem to imply that the changing hands of reflecting pool and grant statue, don't affect the borders of the mall. Just because the Architect of the Capitol is in charge of it, doesn't mean it isn't part of the mall. The NPS states "While the National Mall is under the jurisdiction of the National Park Service, multiple governmental agencies and organizations have jurisdiction over lands and roads within and adjacent to the National Mall, including the Architect of the Capitol . . ." [1], so maybe that should be removed. McKay (talk) 20:19, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

This NPS map is quite interesting. It seems to think the larger area is the "National Mall Areas", and a smaller area than even the NRHP definition (3rd-14th, Jefferson to Madison, i.e. the NRHP border less union square and the smithsonians) it calls simply "THE MALL". McKay (talk) 20:31, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

All the governmentally provided maps and information ( https://www.nps.gov/nama/planyourvisit/maps.htm ) show the mall including much more than the narrowly defined bounds this article calls “The Mall (proper),” which is mainly problematic because the points of intrest are split into those within the “proper” and those surrounding the mall, which strongly implies disparate levels of legitimacy. A smithsonian museum that is not “on the mall proper” might as well be called a “lesser smithsonian installation.” Significantly, the national museum of African American history and culture would fall into this category, despite being a fully legitimate and significant museum of the smithsonian institution, sited, planned, and credited as “on the mall.” Kludgel (talk) 12:08, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Vandalism

I don't have an account on here or anything but I thought somebody should know that the Transportation and External Links portion of this article seem to have been vandalized. 70.21.27.73 04:17, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Largest Rally?

The article claims: "To date, the largest rally on the Mall was the 2004 March for Women's Lives, in favor of abortion rights and against George W. Bush." Has anyone seen any source for this claim? It is my understanding that estimates of crowd size are no longer released due to many organizations claiming to have the largest rally... Gblaz 20:25, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

• Further research has confirmed that the U.S. Park Police no longer issue estimates of crowd sizes. Therefore it is impossible to confirm the statement. Gblaz
  • Should not that claim then be deleted according to Wikipedia:UNSOURCED? Kardinal 01:23, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
    • I replaced the claim relating to the size of the crowd at the 2004 March for Women's Lives with the following statement: "On April 25, 2004, the March for Women's Lives filled the Mall." The legend in a photograph of the crowd in an accompanying reference states that the crowd filled the Mall; the photograph supports the statement. Corker1 (talk) 19:51, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

The?

I don't think this phrase passes the "capitalised 'The' in running text" test, so by my reading of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (definite and indefinite articles at beginning of name), this ought to be at National Mall. Alai 23:17, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• Agreed and moved. violet/riga (t) 23:30, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Satellite Image

The public domain claim on the topmost satellite image (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:National_mall_%28east%29_satellite_image_2.jpg) claims that it is a USGS work, yet the image itself has a Google copyright watermark on it. Am I missing something here or was this image used without permission?

• Screw Google. All they've done is slap copyright notices on USGS public domain images. The DC satellite images found through google maps and the images found via other sources that are expressly sourced as coming from the USGS are identical. Screw Google. Though someone should Photoshop out their stupid watermark. Postdlf 02:50, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

The Mall and the White House

The Mall features the White House, but is within walking distance of the Capitol ? Is the White House on the mall then ? -- ll

• No, the White House is four blocks north of the Washington Monument. It's separated from the Mall by The Ellipse (3 blocks) and its own yard (1 block). -- Jeff Q 01:14, 6 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Cruciform layout

I removed a recent addition that described the layout of the WH, Cap, Wash Mon, Linc Mon, and Jeff Mon as "cruciform," which implies a Christian religious intent. This was not the original layout (since the monuments came later) and certainly not the original intention. Moreover, the effect is not pronounced, since the Tidal Basin is on the southern side of it. The capital has an elegant layout, but it not a religious layout. --Tysto 16:32, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

July 4th

This article needs to mention the annual July 4th fireworks display and concert. It typically attracts the largest crowd to the mall. Hey, it's not just for protests! --dm ^(talk) 21:35, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

• Done. Though, I don't have specific statistics on the size of the crowds. If we can find that somewhere, we should add that. -Aude (talk | contribs) 22:23, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Major and minor

Who is deciding what is a major or minor site on The National Mall? Apparently the National Sylvan Theater is being denigrated for some reason. Why is that?

• Apart from the National Sylvan Theater, the "Minor" heading only contains references to two parks that are adjacent to the National Mall, loosely considered part of the Mall, but not part of the Mall proper. Why not change "Major Sites" to "Sites", move the National Sylvan Theater there, and change "Minor Sites" to "Adjacent Sites"? Paul 19:37, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

National park?

The article starts: "The National Mall is an open-area national park...". But, even though National Mall is administered by NPS I do not think it is a national park. Can someone confirm and if I am right correct the article? Qblik 19:54, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

• Well, I can't confirm it is a national park. However, I think it might be and here's why. I'm looking through the Smithsonian website on the institution at various times in it's history. In the section on the institution at the turn of the 20th century it says that The Mall was actually refered to as the Smithsonian Park in 1900. Check the second to last picture and the info on it on the following link: The Smithsonian at the Turn of the Century - Smithsonian Institution Building and The Mall. Might be worth noting in the entry that this was once the name of the Mall. - annonymous 3:10 PM EST 8/20/08 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.64.8.182 (talk) 19:08, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Why is the Mall called "the Mall?"

Does anyone know where the name came from? 17 July 2007

• The national mall is called that because back in the late 1700s and all through the 1800s people would call places that they could go for entertainment and site seeing "malls." This was very common for many places to be called a mall, like a group of museums by each other, or national sites, and so on... We now use the word mall as a place to buy things, we call it this because when we used the other definition for mall there were also shops and gift stores in these malls and that is how we got the new definition of mall. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.7.42.70 (talk) 17:31, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Mathew Carey's 1802 map is reported to be the first to name the stretch of land west of the Capitol as "The Mall." See: Hanlon, Mary. "The Mall: The Grand Avenue, The Government, and The People". University of Virginia. Retrieved 2010-05-05. I have added this information to the article. Corker1 (talk) 18:13, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 15:58, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Picture

In Firefox 2, that big image seems to be covering up part of the table at the right. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.209.30.113 (talk) 20:49, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

• Moved the table above sat picture. Not the best solution but better then before. The gap you see in Internet Explorer was there even in the old design. Dyslexicon (talk)

History

What previously was on the land that's now the mall? Was there large-scale demolition to create it, besides relocating the train station? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.190.166.162 (talk) 16:15, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Inauguration Day 2009

A press release from the Presidential Inauguration Committee read that "the entire length of the National Mall will be opened to the public". I think there should be a section on the Presidential Inauguration stating this. Gadol87 (talk) 22:28, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

$200 Million Revitalization plan

I don't have time to edit the main article - so help yourself: Jump to page 120 http://appropriations.house.gov/pdf/RecoveryBill01-15-09.pdf — —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.11.72.97 (talk) 03:51, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

People gathered in the Mall

How many people could physically be squeezed into the mall, anyone know? (Pavelow235 (talk) 06:49, 17 January 2009 (UTC))

• approximately 3 million.

• 4 million if there are no fat people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.167.146.130 (talk) 20:32, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Notability

The polo match and science expo lack notability as defined by Wikipedia and are thus being removed. The Beck rally belongs in the Protests and Rallies section. However, the majority of protests and rallies on the Mall have been moved to the List_of_protest_marches_on_Washington,_D.C. This rally should be moved there as well. Before reverting this edit, please indicate evidence of notability here. Thanks. 68.48.150.143 (talk) 17:29, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

*For the polo match: this (referenced in article) and also here, here and here. The rally also has notable coverage (for example here) For more information see WP:NOTE and WP:GNG. Nevertheless, I was wrong to label your good faith edits as vandalism, I apologise

Jebus989^★ 18:12, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

*Fair enough on the polo match, although it's staying power as a notable event seems short. My argument for the rally is that it doesn't belong in Other Events, but in Protests and Rallies. And given that there are very few of the many National Mall rallies that are listed, it's more appropriately over at List_of_protest_marches_on_Washington,_D.C.. On the third one, are we in agreement that the expo does not stand out from the many other events on the Mall? 69.250.148.14 (talk) 01:33, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

• Notability isn't temporary (WP:NTEMP). The removal of the expo is acceptable, though not entirely necessary, it is a short, accurate and sourced statement relevant to the title (WP:RVREASONS) I realise there are many other events held at the mall that are not listed, but the incompleteness of an article is not necessarily a reason for removing content from it. If a few more events were added the section could be split into Events at the National Mall in line with pages like Events at Madison Square Garden and List of events at Yankee Stadium (1923)

Jebus989^★ 10:02, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

New photo

I've posted a pretty good aerial photo to the "Dimensions" section. If anyone else thinks it would make a good "Infobox" photo, feel free to make the change.V1 Rotate (talk) 17:51, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Dimensions incomplete

You don't give the width of the mall. What is it? 4.249.63.15 (talk) 19:31, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

• Added total width of Mall and width of open space of Mall to Dimensions section. Corker1 (talk) 17:55, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Placement of the National Mall Plan in the history section

It is a synopsis of a plan that has already started to take place, thus it can be placed in the history section, if not adjacent to it. Epicgenius (talk) 00:02, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

It's not part of the history of the Mall, it's part of what's happening to it currently. Putting it in the "history" section makes it a dead thing, when it's still alive and in process. BMK (talk) 00:07, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but since it is part of a timeline or of a continuum of time, I think "History" is appropriate. Plus, much of the section talks about stuff that's already been done. It doesn't talk about current status until the last sentence (to emphasize: not even the last paragraph, but the very last sentence). Epicgenius (talk) 00:09, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Nonetheless, something which dates from (at the earliest) 2006 is too recent to be "History". BMK (talk) 01:06, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

But opinions may vary on what constitutes recent. An update from even last week can also be considered history. We can solicit other opinions on this, though. Epicgenius (talk) 01:08, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Addition of image

User:Corker1 added an image to the article and change the layout to accommodate it. I thought it was a gratuitous addition and reverted. I left a message on Corker1's talk page, and he responded on mine to say:

Explanation for my edit that you reverted: I added the new image (National Mall in 1999) to the History section to show a comparison of views of the Mall looking east from the top of the Washington Monument towards the U.S. Capitol in 1901 and 1999. The two images show similar views separated by nearly one century. The images show the changes to the Mall that resulted from implementation of the 1901 McMillan Plan. I placed the McMillan Plan between the 1901 and 1999 images of the Mall. The legends to the images describe the changes. Please do not revert these again. Corker1 (talk) 04:25, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I don't find this explanation convincing, since the two images in question aren't directly comparable and do not make the changes clear to the reader. Since the addition of the image comes at an expense to the layout, I reverted back to the status quo ante, as required by WP:BRD.

I'd like to hear what other editors think of this version of the article (the original layout) and this version, with Corker1's addition. BMK (talk) 04:39, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

(There's also already an recent image (2011) looking east from the Washington Monument. Corker1's addition of another one from 1999 just makes no sense to me. BMK (talk) 04:42, 23 February 2015 (UTC))

The 1901 and 1999 images are directly comparable. Both are photographs taken from the top of the Washington Monument. The 1901 photograph shows a somewhat wider view, but the views of the Mall and the U.S. Capitol are about the same in the two photographs. In contrast, the 2011 image shows a much more limited view than do the 1901 and 1999 views.

The 1901 and 1999 views both show almost the entire portion of the Mall that lies between the Washington Monument and the U.S. Capitol. In contrast, about half of that portion is absent from the 2011 photo. Note that the 1901 and 1999 photos show the Smithsonian "Castle", but the 2011 photo does not.

The legend to the 1999 photo attributes the change in the appearance of the Mall to the implementation of the McMillan Plan of 1901. The legend clearly explains the reason for this change. Corker1 (talk) 05:27, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I have requested a third opinion regarding this issue at WP:THIRDOPINION. 05:53, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Response to third opinion request:

While the images are comparable in composition, I see no value added with the new (and oversized) photograph. The 1901 photograph is low quality, but has some historical value. The new photograph is too separated from it for comparison purposes, and does not offer any more information than the image of the plan itself. I would recommend that it be kept off. ScrapIronIV (talk) 15:22, 23 February 2015 (UTC) ScrapIronIV (talk) 15:26, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

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Source on history

• A 200-year transformation: How the Mall became what it is today, Washington Post, August 23, 2016

 czar 03:49, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

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External links modified (February 2018)

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 8 external links on National Mall. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.nps.gov/aboutus/upload/NPIndex2012-2016.pdf
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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120916174649/http://www.ncpc.gov/ncpc/Main%28T2%29/ProjectReview%28Tr2%29/CommissionArchive/CommissionActionsiframepages/Archive/2010/December2010Actions.html to http://www.ncpc.gov/ncpc/Main(T2)/ProjectReview(Tr2)/CommissionArchive/CommissionActionsiframepages/Archive/2010/December2010Actions.html
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20121002140602/http://www.ncpc.gov/DocumentDepot/Actions_Recommendations/2010Dec/National_Mall_Plan_Action_7060_December2010_.pdf to http://www.ncpc.gov/DocumentDepot/Actions_Recommendations/2010Dec/National_Mall_Plan_Action_7060_December2010_.pdf

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Formatting and Placement of Pictures

The formatting on the top section on this page is terrible. We have titles being shifted because of pictures aligned left with not enough text. We also have big pictures being centered and leaving big areas of white on both sides that could achieve the same result on the right. That's fine. Who cares about the reader having to scroll down a mile to go through the page?! I attempted to solve some of these issues but it gets reversed and we are back to square one. It was my understanding that Wikipedia should be enjoyable to read. I will leave this mess and move to pages where my time will not be wasted. Blazing Liberty (talk) 12:12, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

@Blazingliberty: Thank you for your comments. I reverted your edits primarily because your edits reduced the sizes of a number of images. This created difficulties in seeing details of the images, some of which are photos of large areas of land with many interesting features. In addition, some of your edits removed the centering of many image legends. While aligning longer image legends to the left may improve the appearance of articles, legends having only one line have a better appearance when centered.

You noted that pictures aligned to the left with not enough text had resulted shifted in the shifting of titles. This is correct. However, the only way to avoid this is to either add text or reduce the sizes of the pictures. As I stated above, reducing the sizes of pictures can obscure important details. Adding text reduces conciseness. While shifting of titles is not optimal, the alternatives can be worse.

You noted that large pictures are centered, leaving big areas of white on both sides that could achieve the same result on the right. Please note, however, when a section's text is short, aligning large pictures to the left or right can increase the shifting of titles. This shifting causes pictures below the large pictures to be completely outside of their relevant sections. Where this can occur, it it is preferable to center the pictures, even though this does leave empty spaces on both sides of the picture. Corker1 (talk) 14:57, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

@Blazingliberty: I have moved the most of the previously centered large pictures to the right, as you suggested. While the relocations do save space, they make the text disjointed. It's a trade-off. Corker1 (talk) 19:36, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

@Corker1: I think I found a good compromise for the pictures. Using a gallery you get both pictures on the same row and they remain big for ease of reading. I think it works. I am not sure what to do with the Lock keeper's House on the left... Blazing Liberty (talk) 16:08, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Agriculture and other changes

Corker1, Why did you revert? [2] See U.S. Department of Agriculture Administration Building see also, [[3]] -- it's the building in the overhead picture to the east of number 15, and its on the national mall. ("The only departmental office building on the National Mall, it exemplifies the importance of the Department of Agriculture at the time it was built." [4] ) The other changes were made because of organization, it makes sense to discuss the National Mall (proper) first. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:09, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

@Alanscottwalker: Your edit (which I reverted) changed a section of National Mall that is entitled "Landmarks, museums, and other features". That section contains an image whose legend states: "National Mall proper and adjacent areas in March 2005". Beneath that image, the section states: "The National Mall proper contains the following landmarks, museums and other features (including opening year):"

The only features in the list below that statement should be those that within the National Mall (proper). The list should not contain any other features.

The section in the article entitled "Boundaries" defines the National Mall (proper) as:

In its 1981 National Register of Historic Places nomination form, the NPS defined the boundaries of the National Mall (proper) as Constitution and Pennsylvania Avenues on the north, 1st Street NW on the east, Independence and Maryland Avenues on the south, and 14th Street NW on the west, with the exception of the section of land bordered by Jefferson Drive on the north, Independence Avenue on the south, and by 12th and 14th Streets respectively on the east and west, which the U.S. Department of Agriculture administers and which contains the Jamie L. Whitten Building (U.S. Department of Agriculture Administration Building).

Therefore, the U.S. Department of Agriculture Building is not within the National Mall (proper), as defined within the section entitled "Boundaries". Your edit, which added the U.S. Department of Agriculture building to a list of features within that are within the National Mall (proper), created an internal inconsistency within the article. My reversion of your edit removed the inconsistency that you had created.

You stated above: "The other changes were made because of organization, it makes sense to discuss the National Mall (proper) first." Please note, however, the section in the article entitled "Boundaries", which defines the National Mall (proper), is located above the section entitled "Landmarks, museums, and other features". Therefore, the article does in fact discuss the National Mall (proper) first. The image of the western portion of the National Mall belongs above (not below) the image of the National Mall (proper) because the National Mall (proper) is a specific area within the larger and less well-defined area that some sources identify as the "National Mall". Corker1 (talk) 18:40, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

Corker1 Thanks but I corrected the building it's not the south building. But I do not agree with your order argument, as it creates redundancy. It makes no sense to discuss the western first because than we discuss the proper, and then we discuss the east, and then the west (AGAIN). Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:58, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

@Alanscottwalker: To reduce redundancy, I have relocated the lists of features in the section entitled "Landmarks, museums, and other features" and added to the section three new subsections ("Features within the National Mall proper", "Features east of the National Mall proper" and "Features west of the National Mall proper").

14th Street is the western border of the National Mall (proper). The U.S. Department of Agriculture building and the U.S. Department of Agriculture South building are both east of 14th Street. The two buildings are south (not west) of the National Mall (proper). I have therefore not included either of the two buildings in the list of features in the new subsection entitled "Features west of the National Mall proper".

The article contains a section entitled "Other attractions nearby". As the two buildings contain federal offices and are not tourist attractions, I have not placed either of the two buildings in that section. Corker1 (talk) 04:59, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Corker1, 1) Well no, the Administration building is east west and south but fine. 2) I don't think removing it is a particularly good choice as it's right there, a big building in the picture (and National Park's jurisdiction does not really make any difference, although they of course they have to define their jurisdiction as opposed to the Agriculture Departments, just as it has to be defined as against the Architect of the Capitol on the east but although they can make an irregular cut out, they can't move the building from its place) and the Admin building is regularly noted in sources as being 'on the national mall', the 'only such building on the mall' etc. And as the history section shows to understand the history you have to know it's there as the "Agricultural Grounds", and to understand the place, it is still there. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:01, 19 August 2019 (UTC) (Struck "east" inserted "west" per the questions and response below. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:51, 20 August 2019 (UTC))

@Alanscottwalker: Please provide the reason that you consider the Agriculture Adminstration Building to be east and south of the National Mall (proper). The building is south of westernmost part of that portion of the Mall, not east of that portion.

The section of the article entitled "Boundaries" describes the location of the Agriculture Administration building by stating that the National Mall (proper) encompasses an area "... with the exception of the section of land bordered by Jefferson Drive on the north, Independence Avenue on the south, and by 12th and 14th Streets respectively on the east and west, which the U.S. Department of Agriculture administers and which contains the Jamie L. Whitten Building (U.S. Department of Agriculture Administration Building)." That information and the link to the article entitled "Jamie L. Whitten Building" is sufficient for readers to learn of the building and its location. Corker1 (talk) 15:25, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

I misspoke, sorry, I meant west and south. The description you rely on describes and encompasses the corner at 14th and Independence ("Independence and Maryland Avenues on the south, and 14th Street NW on the west") and then uses "with the exception" (perhaps a bit misleadingly as the source says "No longer part of the official Mall grounds" [5]) to cut out the west and south corner.

Nonetheless, this is the image used in the article:

National Mall proper and adjacent areas in March 2005. The Mall had a grassy lawn flanked on each side by unpaved paths as its central feature. (Numbers in image correspond to numbers in list of landmarks, museums and other features below.)

For the reader, there is a big unmarked building in the picture near the lower left next to No. 15. Freer Gallery of Art, and directly across the mall from No. 2. National Museum of American History. This building give symmetry to the space, and it is most inconsiderate to the reader to just leave them guessing what that building is. Thus, I would add to our legend under the section which describes the things unmarked in the picture :"*(The building to the left of no. 15 on the image is the U.S. Department of Agriculture Administration Building which is sometimes described as being on the national mall but it is not a public attraction and it is not within the jurisdiction of the National Park Service.") Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:35, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

References