Talk:Nash, Newport

Origin of the name

User at 194.168.45.250 (someone at Cardiff City Council?), yes, onnen is the singular, although my Welsh dictionary gives ynn as the plural.

Although I would support the Welsh language wherever possible, however, I remain unconvinced by many of the Welsh versions that have now been newly invented for English place names in Wales. There is obviously a strong argument for the names as cities and large towns to be given Welsh equivalents, e.g. Casnewydd, Caerdydd, Abertawe, and so on, But I am less sure where we get a twentieth century literal translation of an Old/ Middle English place-name which has been used for centuries, Does that really count as a "name" in the same way? To my knowledge no-one has ever spoken of "Trefonnen" to mean "Nash". I suppose there must be some literary precedent in historic Welsh text, but it’s certainly not on any road-sign or modern map. When we get the Welsh version of Wikipedia, I would expect that Nash will appear as Nash.

I suppose this is a wikipedia policy which we cannot avoid. I see that Goldcliff has been given "Allteuryn", which now provides for confusion with the long established Allt-yr-yn area of Newport (i.e. English `Goldtops'). I also see that Bishton has been given the impressive "Llangadwaldr Trefesgob”. Where the etymology may be explained by the Welsh root, such as "Magwyr" for Magor, that seems sensible in “Origin of the Name”. But translation without any etymological value can sometimes seem rather artificial. It seems no one has yet made any suggestion for Whitson, but I’m sure it won’t take long. Any other views? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:54, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I find it difficult to accept that because you have not heard anyone speak of Trefonnen it should therefore not be mentioned. I would not suggest a name for Whitson as one does not exist. The reason why you might not have seen Trefonnen on any roadsigns is that Newport City Council has never always conformed to the Welsh Language Act.

I dont believe that Allteuryn provided confusion with Allt-yr-ynn. Do we just dismiss certain names because they are similar.

With regard to Bishton, the name Llangadwaldr (the church of Cadwaladr) is, like many other welsh names, given additional qualifier to single it out from other places with a church of the same name. In this case - Trefesgob - in Bishops Town.

As both of these places were in historic Monmouthshire and therefore considered "not Welsh" for a time, some of the Welsh names were not shown to the public but that does not mean they are not used.Alecs casnewydd (talk) 22:41, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

A robust defence, Alecs casnewydd. One suspects that the map of Wales may have for too long been written by the English. But when did one ever hear anyone actually say "Tefonnen" to mean Nash? Perhaps we dismiss certain names because they are never used. Who should we really ask to suggest a Welsh name for Whitson, The Assembly perhaps? Hmm, perhaps they will tell us without being asked at all? I can see that these names can be used by Welsh Language supporters for good political and nationlistic reasons. But are they used by any of the people who actually live there? Would the quality of life of those people be so transformed by bi-lingual road-signs? I don't doubt the accuracy of the translations or the more poetic or descriptive value they might have, but I would welcome real citations for all or any of the Welsh village names in this part of Monmouthshire. I cannot accept that they necessarily help explain the "origin of the name" when that name is and always has been Anglo Saxon. My point is that they appear, so far at least, to be merely modern inventions. But then perhaps we are on the brink of a glorious re-writing of the map of Wales? Perhaps a new boundary can be drawn between Welsh Allteuryn and English Whitson? - a fine new Monksditch indeed. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:16, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Some apologies, Alecs casnewydd - things are not always as they seem. Checking my copy of Bradney, he is unequivocal that "in recent Welsh" Nash is Tref onnen. While `modern in 1932' does not denote common useage today, it does support the validity of that Welsh equivalent. And although it may not support name origin etymologically, it obviously does semantically, as does the Latin which I have added to the article for completeness (the surname Nash has the same origin -[1]).

Likewise I see that Bradney gives Allt eurin for Goldcliff "of which the English is a literal translation", Llangadwaladr ("and sometimes Tref Escob") (town of the Bishop) for Bishton and, Y Foelgryg for Wilcrick and, most interestingly, Y Widson (in 1566) for Whitson. The best Bradney could find for Redwick is Redwick. So The Assembly need not hurry to think up any new names. I think that wikipedia is a far better place for all these Welsh versions than on any road signs. For a while yet anyway?Martinevans123 (talk) 19:13, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

WOW! I've certainly never seen Y Widon so you've certainly told me something! I think people want to create names which is wrong. The worst is Tofaen creating "Ger-yr-Efail" for Forgeside. Yes it means Forgeside but I can find no evidence whatsoever that it is nothing but a fanciful creation. Likewise I would never suggest an English name for place like Maesglas. Keep up the good work. Alecs casnewydd (talk) 02:10, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Just to add to the confusion, the Welsh Language Board now prefers Tre'ronnen as the translation of Nash (see Enwau Cymru). Skinsmoke (talk) 02:00, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, still does. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:57, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

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Gallery

Would it be better to move all the images into a gallery at the bottom? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:53, 18 January 2024 (UTC)