Talk:Nair/Archive 8

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The connection between nairs and newars is a very loose assumption. The pagoda style of nepali architecture is due to chinese influence which was also there in kerala as we all know with the fishing nets, koppa, cheen chetti and bharani. The credit to building such temples should go to Vishvakarmas. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.163.228.84 (talk) 17:09, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Megasthenes did not mention Nayars ( Nairs) of Malabar, in Indica but narae, Jats

Megasthenes did mention about the Chera Kingdom. The word Malabar itself was first used by Al Biruni in 1000 ad for the first time. No inscriptions or plates mentioning the name Nair exist before 1030 ad ( Thiruvalla Sasanam). The wore Anayar have been mentioned little earlier. All Nagas mentioned need not be Nairs either.There is no records substantiating the existence of Nayars in kerala in the first millenium predating the Rashtrakuta invasions ( 752 ad to 973 ad ). Megasthenes did mention about Nehra community as Narae a Scythian community living in North India not Nairs but could have common Scythian origins. Nelcynda (talk) 14:16, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Well the Kandiyur inscriptions mention the Aaruveetil Madampis who are 6 Nair lords and these inscriptions date back to 825 AD. They arent mentioned as "Nairs" but these families and their branches still exist. So the people later known as Nairs did exist then. Manu —Preceding comment was added at 07:40, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Rashtrakuda Invasions in 800 AD, favoured migration of Nairs and Namboothiris to Kerala from Tulunad

Before Rashtrakuda invasions (752 AD to 973 AD)on Kerala no body ever hears of Nairs inside Kerala. But the Tulunad records Gramapaddathi of the Tulu Brahmins does mention about Nairs as residents of Tulunad prior to 800 AD who had been fiercly protective of Brahmins. Nayara and Menavas are sub castes among the Bunt community in Karnataka. Nairs are perhaps Non-Dravidians migrated from North Ahichatra who mixed with many Dravidian families of Kerala including the Pillais of Vellala, Kalabhra origin, Valluvans of Valluvanad, and Kurubas (Kuruppu) etc. Family names might have existed long before 800 AD but might have belonged to the Dravidan tribes than Nairs. When Nairs annihilated or assimilated the local Dravidians they might have acquired the Dravidian titles. Eg Valluvakonathiri Moopil Nair. Valluvans are unmistakably an ancient Tamil dynasty who had many small kingdoms from Palakkad to Wayanad area. But now we see only Nairs not Valluvans. Thiruvalla Sasanam (1030 AD) does talk about the Nair Chavers who bravely fought the Cholas. Before that No evidence for the existence of Nairs available.

The Rashtrakutas did occupy all kerala upto Kanyakumari indicating the inabilty of the Nattu Rajas, the Venad and Chera Kingdoms to stop the invaders. Suddenly Namboothiris and their loyal Aristocracy the Nairs appear in Kerala history. We cant rule out a Nair invasion on Kerala along with the Rashtrakuta forces in the 9th century. The Bunts of Karnataka the Nairs' counterparts in Karnataka were part of the Rashtrakuta army.

Scythian Nairi tribe of Kazhakstan ( Sakasthan), Megasthenes Indika

During Megasthanesperiod in 300 BC Nairs or Nairi tribe of Scythians or Indo-Scythians were perhaps not in India. The Sakasthan of the Scythians, in the north of Iran, in the present day Kazakhistan, was ruled by Greek Selucid dynasty might be quite familiar to Megasthenes. Megasthenes might have known Nairis, of Saka kingdom who could be the ancestors of modern day Nairs, Nayyars (Khatri of Punjab), Nehra, Nara among Jats, and Newars of Nepal. Scythians might have had Matriarchy as well as Female Queens with Slavery and Blinding of slaves too.Megasthenes might not have mentioned Nayars of Malabar as the migration of Nairs to Kerala could not have happened earier than 752 AD. The word Malabar was coined by Al Biruni, for the first time in 1030 AD to denote all the places from Bombay to Kanyakumari.

With due respects to Raman Menon, though whose monumental Calicut University paper(1905) The Scythian origins of Nairs is not available now.

Nelcynda (talk) 14:37, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Nairs were Vadugas (northern invaders) not ancient Tamil Dravidians

Nairs differ from most of the Dark Dravidians, by their sharper features, fairness, slight mongoloid features, often persian like features, heavy built and different culture. Most of the ancient Tamil descendents consider Nairs to be of Northern stock. No oral traditions or Sangam literature attests to the existence of Matriarchy in ancient Kerala. Patriarchy was the norm within all the Dravidian clans including Cheras. Monoandry was the norm though Polygamy was not considered abnormal. The virtues of Kannagi,including Chastity and modesty praised by the Chera prince Elango adigalin his Silappathiharam. The Chera kings till their end in 1120 talked and wrote books in Tamil. Naka or Nagas did exist in ancient India as well as Sri Lanka.But those Nagas belong to a completely different stock not related to Nairs who might have migrated thousand years later. The Nagas are ethnically and culturally different people from the Dravidians. Though often employed by the Dravidians as mercenaries the Nagas never ruled any kingdom in South India.(To devalue the Dravidians some of the Brahmin Historians tried to establish that all the Dravidian kingdoms including Chola, Chera and Pandyan kingdoms were the creation of Nagas not of Dravidians. The ancient Tamil kingdoms were Jain and were ruled exclusively by Dravidians not Nagas. Sangha literature never mentioned about Nairs either. Nairs never had any affinity to Tamil or Jainism.They perhaps were not familiar with even Kannagi,when they arrived, leading to renaming the names of all Kannagi temples. Nelcynda (talk) 14:41, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Chera kingdom was not named after Rat Snakes

The suggestion that Chera kingdom was named after Cherai (rat snake) is ridiculous. Those who dont have Dravidian traditions can come to this conclusion. When the Chera Kingdom was founded the word Chera was not in vogue but Charai (rat snake).Chera kingdom was a conglomeration of many Villavar tribes including Vellian, Purayan , Malayan , Vanavar, Pazhuvettariyar etc. Unlike modern times the Chera principalities existed inside related Pandyan territories too. Chera means United or Union of Chera tribes. Who will try to name a country after Rat snake ?

Nairs were not the Naka or Naga Lords of Manimekalai, an ancient Tamil literature

The Manipallavam mentioned in Manimekalai, could be Sri Lanka, where the Naga lords had a kingdom but they could be, not related to Nairs. The Nagas of Sri Lanka are integrated by the Sinhalese later.Some say Manipallavam could be Indonesia or Phillipines (Manila) where Nagas were present too.

Nelcynda (talk) 14:27, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Illavars are more related to the Chera kings, the Villavars not Nairs

The Chera king was clearly of Villavar origin.The emblem on the flag and the Governments insignia were Bow and Arrow indicating they descend from Villavars the ancient Bow men. The villavar tribes of Kerala could be Villavar, Malayar, Vanavar, Velliar,Puraiyar, Pazhuvettariayar etc. The Ezhava or Illavars and Billavas of Karnataka also could be of the same villavar stock. The main title of Chera kings was Villavar Kone. Nairs might have integrated some of the Chera descendents after the fall of Chera kingdom not earlier. Nelcynda (talk) 14:37, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Nairs do not have a particularly distinct appearance in Kerala. Also how can matriarchy be proven to be a Scythian feature as Thiyyas and Billavas also have it?, I believe a Naga origin is the most likely for the first Nair settlers although again Thiyyas and Billavas also practice Naga worship.Nambo (talk) 15:19, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

The Native Dravidians fall under Villavars,Minavars,Panars,Valluvans, Kurumbars, Kongar,Vanavar, Malayar,Ayar,Kosar,Koravas etc But Nagas are not Dravidians. MatNorthern adopted matriarchy but did not practice Polyandry.The Chera kings did not practise Matriarchy till their end in 1120 and Keralas laterday kings accepted it only after 1400 ad. It is purely an acquired custom for Ezhavas in a land dominated by Nairs. Nagas did live in South India and Sri Lanka but Nairs may not be one of those Naga or Nakaa tribes. The Sri Lankan Nagas were integrated by the Sinhalese society (not the Tamils). The ancient Nagas of South India did not have Matriarchy. But Satavahanas and other suspected Scythians did have Matriarchy. The Nairi or Naharin tribe of Mittany (Turkey and Armenia) is believed to be the ancestors of Indias Nagas in the ancient times. Nairi tribe following its deferat by Assyrians 1240 yrs BC gradually moved towards east to the Sakastan north of Persia (Kazhakhstan). Ahichatra was a Naga kingdom. Ahi= Snake , Chatra=Umbrella - Kingdom.Nairs might have Naga blood which prompted the Brahmins to address them as Sudras. Most of the Nagas in the North India were degraded by the Brahmins the same way. But the Scythian blood of Nairs might only explain the fair colour and sharp features and Matriarchy which gave them chance to surivive in an alien hostile territory - The Chera kingdom of the Villavars. Nelcynda (talk) 14:39, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

So Ezhava/Thiyya snake worship is also an adopted custom? Also no mention of matriarchy and polyandry in the Saka or Scythian article. Also the Naga-Scythian link seems rather vague.Nambo (talk) 14:47, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Not only Ezhava Thiyya but Billava snake worship was also an adopted custom. Matriarchy was accepted by northern Ezhavas though Southern Ezhavas practised Patriarchy. Polyandry was never popular among Ezhavas. Sakas and Scythians did practice Matriarchy. Amazons and Scythians of Turkey practised Matriarchy according to Greek authors. The Sarmatians mixture of both Amazon and Scythians did practised it in ancient times. Many Saka clans who founded kingdoms in India adopted Patriarchy. Sarmatians or Sauramathas who founded Saurashtra or Gujarat adopted Patriarchy after coming to India. Nairs failed to adopt Patriarchy until the modern times. Nelcynda (talk) 15:12, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

There had been innumerable invasions and exodus to the northern india by different Saka clans from 200 BC onwards. This lasted till 4th century AD and many kingdoms in the north and central India were founded by them. Nagas who were rulers of north-west also were part of this saka dynasties. The sakas included Yavanas (greek),Kamboja (Central Asians) and pahlavas. Though these saka clans were fierce fighters, they were never treated on par with the Aryan kshathriya groups by the Aryans. Gautama Budha is postulated to have come from one of such saka clans. In Manusmruthi, they are mentioned as ‘degraded kshathriyas’ and ‘Sudras’ as they never observed the sacred brahminical code. Perhaps this may be one other reason why the Nairs were treated as Sudras by Brahmins. The practice of Polyandry and Matriarchy among the Nairs definitely point to the fact that they were a migrant group of warriors. Polyandry, as a result of losing or unavailability of women folk due to these migrations and also reluctance - driven by gene consciousness - to mix with the natives. The local Dravidian groups like Thiyas did adopt matriarchy from the Nairs as many of them were also into the Nair occupation of war fare. However,the ezhavas of south kerala never practiced matriarchy.Keraleeyan —Preceding comment was added at 06:45, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, go ahead and add this to the origins section if this content is referenced.Nambo (talk) 12:08, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Yavanas who founded the Selucid kingdom( Yonaka mapillai in Malayalam the Greeks married local dravidian girls),Pahlavas (from Northern Iran who founded the Pallava of Kancheepuram,,Bactrians,Huns from Black sea area of Kiev, and even Nairi people of Turkey and Armenia were not originally Scythians. The Scythians are an Nomadic Indo Aryan group of Southern Siberia who deviated from the Indo Iranian Aryan group earlier. Many Kurgans of the Scythians have been preserved in the permafrost of Siberia. Horse sacrifice was common among Scytians and Indo Aryans. In the Kurgans dead horses and Horse meat have been preserved for ages. Enormous quanitities of gold acquired by the Scythian raids on Persia have been found. Long raids on horseback left the ladies alone at home who selected other grooms meanwhile leading to Polyandry. Any society with Polyandry will eventually degenerate to Matriarchy as the paternity of the children cant be ascertained. In the later periods (even in the Vedic periods 1300 bc or earlier)Scythians started living at Kam = Saka Country Bhoja = King. The Kaundinya Gotra is from the Saka Country. Sage Vashishta also might be related to Sakas. The Nairs could be Nairi clan of Scythians. Nelcynda (talk) 12:44, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Newars and the Brahmins from Ahichatra

Ahichatra was a Naga kingdom. Ahi= Snake Chatra = Kingdom. After the repeated Scythian invasions starting from the second century BC, Whole of the North and Western India was occupied by Scythian tribes. Scythians are known for their military prowess and formed the Kshatriya Rajput and Jat clans. But the Scythians who mixed with the local Nagas might not have gained the same respect as Keralolpathi hints at.

Keralolpathi says that Nairs and Bunts are Sudras who accompanied Namboothiris and Thulu Brahmins from Ahichatra,near Rampur near Nainital in the Indo Nepal Border. Kadamba king Mayuravarma of Banavasi is credited with bringing Brahmins from North in 345 AD. So Nairs might have migrated to Shimoga in Karnataka in 345 AD not earlier.

The physical appearance of Nairs, the fair colour,sharp features and slight mongoloid looks all points to the fact this North to South migration did happen.

Newars had Matriarchy in the ancient times. They lived in Pagoda like residential houses closely resembling Nalukettu. They have Masked danced drama which depicts Buddhist stories closely resembling Kathakali.

From the fourth century onwards Nairs might have spread to Tulunad and after 800 ad they might have invaded or migrated to Kerala.

It seems the Brahmins of Ahichatra in the North Panchala country in the present day Uttarpradesh brought a band of Nepalese Scythian Naga warriors from Nepal and came to Karnataka,dominated the political scene over there from 345 to 800 ad and in an appropriate time they have entered Kerala with the Rashtrakuta army and became Lords of Kerala after the fall of Chera kingdom.

Nelcynda (talk) 15:12, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Migration of Nairs, the Nairi people from Armenia to Kerala

• The Nairi people of Armenia and the Mittany ( of Turkey) migrated east to the Saka country north of Persia might be their defeat at the hand of Assyrians in 1240 BC.
• Saka invasions of India between 200 BC to 400 ad. Northern India including Ahichatra and Nepal under the suzernity of the Sakas. At Nepal they might have been called Newars.
• The Kadamba king Mayuravarma invites Brahmins from Ahichatra to Shimoga in north Karnataka at 345 AD. Nairs (Newars) and Bunts hired by Namboothiris accompany them who join the Kadambas and later Rashtrakuta.
• During Rashtrakuta invasions between 752 ad to 973 ad whole of Kerala and Tamil Nadu (Chola king was defeated and killed at Takkolam)

was devastated, the land upto Kanyakumari was occupied by Nairs and Namboothiris with Rashtrakuta a Scythian kingdom. Thus many Chera clans incuding Villavar, Illavar or Ezhava and Pandyan Villavar clans of southern Kerala, were displaced from their land and enslaved.

Nelcynda (talk) 13:20, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Nairs were not Samurais of the Chera Kingdom

• The traditional Chera kingdom was a strong Patriarchy. The kings descended in a hereditary fashion unlike Nairs.
• Tamil was their mother tongue till their end.

The ancient Chera kings had Tamil,Jain,Dravidian roots while Nairs are Scythian Nagas who were ethnically not Dravidians at all. Nairs were probably still in the Saka Kingdom (Kazhakstan) in the Central Asia,in the early Christian era, when the ancient Dravidian Chera kings such as Cheran Senkuttuvan were ruling Kerala.

• The ancient Cheras including Elangovadikal cherished the ideals of Monoandry and females faithfulness to their husbands.Poyandry practised by Nairs is exactly opposite to what was practised by ancient Chera Tamil Jains.
• The titles of Cheras included in 800 ad during Kulasekhara Alwars period.
• Kollikavalan (the king of Kollimalai in Salem)King of Central and Northern Kerala.
• Koodal Nayagan (The king of Ooty (Udakai was the second capital as well) and Gudalur)
• Villavar Kone (The king of Villavars including Illavars or Ezhava)
• Vanavar Kone (The king of Vanavars)
• Kongar kone (The king of Kongu Nadu- Coimbatore and Karur)
• Malayar Kone (The king of the Malaiyars)

None of these titles indicate Nair presence.

Invasion of Kongan Pada, was it to help the Chera rulers against the Nairs and Namboothiris ? Kongu Nadu was the home turf for the Cheras where they originated. The ancient Chera capital was situated at Vanchimanagar (Karur in Tamil Nadu).During Kulasekhara Alwar (801 ad)Kongu was with Kerala. But after the appearance of Nairs in Kerala Kongu became hostile to Kerala. According to oral traditions Nairs defended Palaghat(? 896 ad) from the onslaught of Kongus,the Kongan Pada,who had been hitherto loyal Chera subjects.

Many later Chola kings were relatives of Cheras The Kerala Perumal Vazcha and the creation of Modern Kerala itself was the handiwork of the Later Cholas. The later Cholas allied with the Cheras who were hiterto related to Pandyas ethnically. Without Chola help Cheras would have never gained control over the Southern Kerala against the Pandyans. All the Chola kings from 985 ad to 1050 ad were born to Chera kings. There has been numerous accounts of Chera kings including Bhaskara Ravi Varma, building and donating to Temples in Chola territory especially Sri Rangam and Kumbakonam areas.Baskara Ravi Varma also served as commander of the western Chola fleet.

Nair Chavers need not be Lords under Chera Kingdom Nairs also allegedly resisted the the Cholas as Chavers in 1030 ad according the Thiruvalla shasanam.The Bunts of Karnataka the counter parts of the Nairs were often hired as mercenaries by the local kingdoms. Nairs also might have been hired warriors by the local kings.But other than these there is nothing to suggest that Nairs were really loyal to Chera kings or had been their lords and generals. A common tradition in Thrissur recounts that Nairs and Namboothiris actually forced to evict the Chera from his throne. Keralolpathi states that the Cheraman Perumals were elected by the four Dhalis of Namboothiris and each were destined to rule a period of 12 yrs, indicating Namboothiris were successful in ending the hereditary dynasty of the Imperial Cheras. The mention of Thuluva Perumal ( as Cheraman Perumal) again indicates that the Namboothiris tried to replace the Chera dynasty with a Thuluva dynasty from their home country. Within hundred years of mention of Nairs in kerala inscriptions the Cheraman Perumal was forced out of power in 1120 ad. This indicates Nairs were not fighting as Samurais for the Imperial Chera but for the Namboothiris rulers.

Nelcynda (talk) 14:15, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Nairs were very much part of the army that defended the Chera kingdom. They might have been hired as mercenaries by the chera king. The last chera king, Cheraman Perumal, was forced to leave his country on religious grounds than political. He embraced Islam and left to Mecca in the 9th C (825 AD). Before leaving to Mecca, he partitioned the whole of his empire to 4 different chieftains of the respective area who served him including the Nair forces. The biggest part of the empire was handed over to Kulashekhara Perumal (Venad king). He also got 3,25,000 strong Nair brigade with him. The Eradi (poonthura) Nair was the army chief of Cheraman perumal and finally when Eradi, (later came to be known as the Zamorin) his most privileged army chief approached him, he was almost done with the partition. He could give Eradi only a small territory which was as small an area as a “rooster’s cry” could be heard. Besides this, he gave his sword to Eradi and told him to “Slay, conquer and extend your kingdom”. That’s what exactly Eradi did and had most of the Cheraman’s erstwhile empire under his foot. Even AdiSankaran (8th century) had defined the rules for 72 castes in the society of which Nairs are also part of. However, there is no mention of Nairs before the arrival of Namoothiris to tulunadu in 7th century.

(Ref. Malabar Manual, chapter - History).Keraleeyan

Adi Sankara charyar If he defined the rules for the 72 castes including Nairs only to boost the social status of Namboothiris and Nairs after the Rastrakuta Invasion. This eventually reduced the status of all the native Dravidians,including Villavars who had been rulers of the Chera kingdom,for many thousand years.

Chera conversions to Islam There has been two conversions of Chera kings. The earlier one might have been a prince at 825 ad who assumed the name Tajuddin. But the convesion last Chera king Ramavarma Kulasekhara ended the Chera kingdom itself. Why did not he appoint his heir from his hindu relatives before leaving for Mecca. It is naive to believe that the last Imperial Chera king did not have any heir.If Nairs were supporting the Chera king the Chera Kingdom would not have ended abruptly. It may not be correct to say all the laterday kings were relatives of Cheraman himself though they claimed it. Samudiri used to wield the Cheramans Sword to indicate his authority during Mamankam.

Kshatriyahood for Nair rulers

While the Namboothiris readily accepted the Chera king as Kshatriya, they did not accept the Samudiri as Kshatriya possibly because of his Nair origins. Finally Samudiri was helped by the Tulu Brahmins to gain Kshatriyahood. Valluvanad and Cochin also could be Nairs and not of Chera origin.

Ays were Yadavas

The Venad kings belonged to Ays (Ayar) Yadukula or Yadava closely related to Konars or Tamilnadu. They were not Cheras but they did have marital connections with Cheras. Southern Kerala was under the Pandyan kings and Trivandrum was founded by a Pandyan king Nedumchadaya Pandyan in 789 ad. Ays were not independent rulers before 880 ad but vassals of Pandyan kings. The continuous line of Venad kings from Ayyandadikal Thiruvadikal, indicate that they were Ays not Cheras. In short the Chera Kingdom was divided by Ays,Kalabhra descendents(Pillai), Nairs and Namboothiris who were not related to Cheras who were Villavars. The flag of Cheras had Bow and arrow as emblem. The Chera Villavar bloodline could be in Illavars (or Ezhava) and Mappilla Muslims.

Nairs of Tulunad

Nairs are ethnically different people but they might have absorbed some elements of Chera blood. The Nairs are mentioned in Gramapaddathis of Tulu nadu as well as in the Barkur Inscriptions of Tulunad as Nayar prior to 800 ad. Nayara and Menava were subcastes of Bunts that time. Nayars were fiercly protective of Brahmins (who later became Namboothiris). Suddenly immediately after the Rashtrakuta invasions of Kerala starting from 752 ad to 973 ad,the Nairs disappeared from Tulunad along with their masters the Namboothiris. Many Rashtrakuta rulers claimed to be rulers of Kerala during that era.

Cheras end and Nairs

Cheras might have hired Nair mercenaries. In Karnataka various regimes including Kadambas, Rashtrakutas, Hoysalas and even Alupas hired Bunt mercenaries, the relatives of Nairs.But there is no concrete evidence that Nairs formed the main body of the (Later)Chera army.The abrupt end of Chera rule and the sudden appearance of Namboothiri and Nair Kingdoms does hint at that Nairs uprooted the Chera kingdom itself.

Nelcynda (talk) 15:40, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Sambandham was male prostitution

2007 (UTC)

Hello there. Maybe you should go through your references better. Check out Cesare Lombroso (the author of your book). His theories don't really hold that much weight these days. Anyway, Sambandham was defined to be legal form of marriage (which it always was, though loose) under the Hindu Marriage Act... so... there goes your theory. --vi5in^[talk] 07:51, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

We cannot hide History with someones bad attitude. Just like someone delete posts or telling some refs are valid and some are not. Its the accepted fact about samabdham is a sexual relationship and Nair women were allowed to have relationship with many namboothiri/nair men. In return these Nambbothiris were allowed to give gifts and proprties.(we all know that in olden days, money were noven as salary or coolie. its just some gifts. thats it). we all know it was a kind of prostitution.124.125.228.205 09:53, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes Sambandham was a sexual relationship. No, it was not prostitution. That's your opinion. So "we all" don't know. You think that's what it is. --vi5in^[talk] 17:10, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Sambandham was basically male prostitution. Female prostitution is a patriarchal concept and is not similar to Sambandam. Nayar women chose to take who they wanted, and how long they kept them. Men were "kept" by nayar women, sometimes more than one at the same time, all of whom competed for her affection. In many ways this was akin to Namboodiri men were male prostitutes in that female dominated society. To terminate a smabandham, the men had no say, only the women had that power. They simply put the man's slippers outside their door and the relationship was terminated (Which Mary Shelley found most interesting and even influenced some of the romanticism about nayars). Bostonboy35 19:14, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Cleaning Up the Article required. Templated added

This aricle needs to be Cleaned Up,not all the Nairs are Shudras,low subsect may come in that catogoery but majority of them are warriors and Kshtriyas. and all most all the Rajahs and Lords and Generals comes from this cast.and Brahmin blood is in the wain also(these same Nambudiris were very relectant to gave kshatriya title to nairs) This aricle needs to be Cleaned Up. I have added the Templated. Nonone of the details with enough references should not be removed. mind it this is a clean up. please see below points: (1) Nair is the name of an upper Hindu Caste from the southern Indian state of Kerala Its actually a sudra caste. Many references are there in many books and sites

(2)However the earlier origin of the Nair caste is uncertain and several alternate and sometimes conflicting theories exist. Dalawa Velayudhan Chempakaram Thampi (1765-1809)Some sociologists are of the view that the Nairs are not indigenous to Kerala, as many customs and traditions distinguish them from other Keralites. According to one theory, Nairs are descendants of the Newars of Nepal, who joined the Munda exodus and later migrated to Kerala. The most prominent arguments given in support of this theory are the presence of distinct pagoda-like architectural style of Nair Tharavaadus and Temples and the practice of Marumakkathaayam (matrilinial) system of inheritance similar to both Nairs and Newars. This is added from a link. Could you some refrences other than this, like books? (3)r the arrival of the Namboothiris (and establishment of the Varnas/Caste System), got categorized as sat Sudras

(4) Typical Nair last names Much of the names are added without references.

(5)The section Nair customs and traditions. The tone is inappropriate here in this section and its subsections. There are a lot of peacock terms. The Section attire, Food and drink, Marumakkathayam and Tharavadu, Kalarippayattu

(6)The section Marriage and its subscetions. The tone is inappropriate here also in this section and its subsections. There are a lot of peacock terms. here are a lot of peacock terms.

(7)The section Other customs. The tone is inappropriate here also.

Dont remove the templated unless we we cleaned up the article. Vvmundakkal 06:32, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

• Point 1 is already addressed in the article.
• Point 2 has references. The link is not "just a link". It's from Dr. Zacharias Thundy.
• Point 3 already addressed.
• Point 4 agreed. This is more "common knowledge" than anything, but I do believe a reference would be helpful.
• Point 5 agreed. It would use some improvement (light copyediting). But I don't understand what's wrong with the tone, and where the peacock terms are.
• Point 6 - What's inappropriate about the tone? Where are the peacock terms?
• Point 7 - What's inappropriate with the tone?

It seems that only two of your points are valid. As far as everything else, you seem to have copied, almost verbatim, my description of the problems in the Ezhava article (i.e., inappropriate tone and peacock terms). Do you know what peacock terms are? Please don't turn this into a tit-for-tat thing. It seems rather obvious that you're doing this with "revenge" or something in mind. As a whole, this article is way better referenced than the Ezhava article. It is also more objective. I'm not just saying that. I actually went through this article and cleaned it up. I honestly don't understand why you take personal offense when someone points out problems with the Ezhava article. Rather pointless, don't you think? --vi5in^[talk] 06:42, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

please refrain this type of allegations as i am not not a contributor to any community artcile. Non of the complaints have been rectified.Vvmundakkal 07:27, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Dont teach me about peacock terms. Its better you read it first. The article has full of peacock terms. Attire, food, drink, kalaripayattu sections are full of peacock terms only. Vvmundakkal 07:43, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, it would help if you would explain what the problems are by giving concrete examples. We can't change anything if you don't point out what is wrong exactly. What "peacock terms" are you talking about? What "inappropriate tone" are you talking about? Please explain. --vi5in^[talk] 17:32, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

O my God, whats happening to the NAir and the Ezhava pages!!! Was there a historical enemity between Nairs and the Ezhava, similar to the pakistanis and the indians??!! just curious.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.67.6.10 (talk) 15:37, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Protecting the article

Is it not possible to protect the article by edit locking and then changes are made to it only with the consensus of the moderator ? I would definitely like to continue making contributions to the article like in the past but seeing the amount of edit conflict and controversy i wonder would´nt it be advisable that we leave it to the judgement of the moderator . What say you viv ? . Sorry if its a bad idea :-)) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.99.165.173 (talk) 13:52, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, I do agree that we end up facing a lot of problems from some rather "overzealous" editors. Perhaps this page does need to be protected. --vi5in^[talk] 17:33, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I have made a request for protection. Let's try and resolve the disputes here first. --vi5in^[talk] 17:39, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Sambandham - a loose but neverthless a marriage

Sambandham means "association" or "relationship". In the worse you can drag it to "liason". Sambandham is definitely a controversial union and has definitely been subject to several interpretations. From a patrilinial definition Sambandham has always been attacked as concubinage or prostitution but for a matrilineal women from Nayar Tharavadu as well as Kshatriya women of Kovilakams in Kerala it definitely constituted marriage The only three reasons why it has not appealed to many non –matrilinials is because 1) in the sambandham union, husband had no exclusive rights in his wife and had only sexual privileges which the wife might withdraw at any time. 2) Polyandry as observed in sambandham unions in central and south Kerala 3) Hypergamous sambandhams were used to increase social status and for euthenics. However it must be remembered that tarditionally the children born out of Sambandham were considered legitimate children, the husband had the duty to provide gifts at stipulated periods, and had to pay for the delivery expenses even if he was Nambudiri. So the sambandham had a ritualistic element however small it may be, it had social sanction and produced children that were considered legitimate in the matrilinial family. This was not the case of the child of a devadasi even at the same period. Moreover Sambandham was governed by rules , there was a definition of what was not an acceptable “sambandham” . For instance.

1. Unless the mother was ritually married by a man of appropriate caste and, unless the biological paternity of the child was vouched by a man of appropriate caste, a child could never be considered legitimate.

2. If the union was with a man inferior in rank the women was outcasted and the union not legal.

3. Even in case of polyandric practice as Hamilton notes that there was a restriction on the number of men a Nayar women could enter in to sambandham.

For people who fail to see sambandham from a matrilinial perspective i have a question - "In kovilakams during a Sambandham union, sometimes husbands (Kozhi-thampuran) of higher birth but poorer means were often even designated revenue from their wife´s estate for the maintenance of their natal homes. Would you call this poor soul a male prostitute of a female prostitute then ?" One has to therefore have social perspective of what constitutes legal sanction before jumping in to conclusion based on a one sided view of things. Therefore, although the elementary family of one father, one mother and their children was not institutionalized as a legal, residential, or economic unit, and although individual men had no significant rights in their particular wives or children, the Nayars did institutionalize the concepts of marriage and of paternity, and gave ritual and legal recognition to both. Even if that does not satisfy then the Malabar Marriage Act, 1896 (Act IV of 1896) recognizes sambandham to be a legal union. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.99.165.173 (talk) 15:44, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Look a sociologist must never look at things like these from the view points of today. To simply put it, 100 years back sambandham was marriage. The definition of marriage wasnt what we consider it today. So it is also just to say that while judging sambandhams dont look at it from the definitions of today. Manu —Preceding comment was added at 05:06, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

To certain people agonizing over this article

There is already a discussion going on in the Ezhava and Malayalee article. How about we resolve that first? It seems you have migrated over to this article to engage in some sort of ridiculous "tit-for-tat" behaviour. Please. I'm requesting you to help us resolve the issues on the first two pages. If you feel that strongly, then please discuss what is wrong with this article. I have already responded to points brought up by Vvmundakkal. I'd appreciate it if you guys joined in. --vi5in^[talk] 06:16, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I perfectly agree with viv, if there is anything constructive that you can offer for the article or something that could better understand the nayar community you are more than welcome to do it. However if the intention is petty personal or community biased vendetta then it is pathetic. Conversation, exchange of opinions, debates and constructive criticisms are a virtue in any civil group however the integrity of the motive is equally important. You are welcome to specifically pin point your factual disapproval of any citation or reference and we can discuss reach a consensus on how it can be improved. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.99.165.173 (talk) 12:49, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Kalaripayattu is the Kerala form of martial art. Nairs and Ezhavas are the major communities which practise it now. Other communities also learn it. Now this is almost like kathakali. In olden days Ezhavas were running kalaris. In van Rheede's memorandum of 1667, the Dutch Governor has written : " The silgos(chegos)usually serve to teach nayros in the fencing school" (meaning = Ezhavas teach nairs in the kalaris). Aromal Chekavar and Thacholi Othena Kurup were the famous heroes of sixteenth century. Chekavar was an Ezhava and Othenan a Nair by caste.Disputes between rulers were settled by 'ankam' by chekavars in those days. The encyclopedia ( Viswa vijnana kosham) says: a Buddhist monk of Kerala introduced 'karate'in China. Karate is a form of self-defence without the use of weapons. The monk must have learned kalaripayattu and modified it as karate. Guruvite 18:29, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Kalaripayattu section - draft for change

I felt that the present section of kalaripayattu describes kalaripayattu more than emphasising on the connection between nair community and kalaripayattu.Therefore i have provided an alternate draft for consensus seeking, modification and subsequent addition by the moderator. I have provided references also.The draft is as follows:

" Kalarippayattu is the martial tradition of Kerala and the right to practice this martial art for the service of the ruler (Vazhunnavar) was predominantly vested with nayars, however although less frequent, at least one subcaste of Brahmins (Chathira), one subcaste of Ezhavas/Thiyyas (Chekors) as well as some Christians and Muslims seemed to have been bestowed with similar rights (Ref.1). Several social anthropologists and historians have documented the nayar dominance of the martial tradition of kalaripayattu (Ref.1,2,3,4,5) For instance, The Kollam - Ramesvaram record states that the defence of the chera kings and their city was entrusted to a group of nayar warriors known as Ayiram (The Thousand). This militia also called Onnu Kurai Ayiram (The Thousand without one) existed in Kodungallur through centuries and was a group consisting of Nayar members proficient in the martial tradition of Kalaripayattu, organised on a hereditary basis (from the Nayar tharavads -Valloppalli, Tayyappalli, Kilikkotta and Kattolli) for the protection of the Chera kings (Ref.5). The Kerolopathi also clearly states that the commander of The Patinayiram (The ten thousand- an alternate referral to the Ayiram militia)called Patamel Nayar commanded the forces of the last Chera Perumal and was the Supreme Commander of his Army (Ref.5). It is interesting to note that during the extended period of warfare between the Cheras and the Cholas in the 11th century CE nayars demonstrated their exceptional martial skills, courage, and nobility by forming elite suicide squads (Chaver-Pada) against the invading chola forces. Also the once in 12 year Mamankam festival conducted by the Zamorin of Calicut during the medieval ages was an important platform when the nayar militia of the Zamorin and the Nayar Chaver Pada of the Valluvakkonathiri used to demonstrate their superior skills in the Kalari martial tradition (Ref.2,3,4). Kalaripayattu therefore was an essential component of education mainly for nayar men and to a lesser extent nayar women (Ref.1) and the Vadakkan pattukal (Ballad tradition of Malabar) is prolific with descriptions of fencing skills and bravery of Nayar warriors like Thacholi othenan (Ref.6). The role of the nayar militia proficient in Kalaripayattu in putting strong resistance to cholas invasion, european invaders and excesses by Tipu and hyder Ali are well documented in the annals of Kerala history. However during colonial era Kalaripayattu was outlawed by British in 1793, leading to great loss of self esteem among Nayars." References:

1. Zarrilli, Phillip B. (1998). When the Body Becomes All Eyes: Paradigms, Discourses and Practices of Power in Kalarippayattu, a South Indian Martial Art. Oxford: Oxford University Press

2. Luijendijk, D.H. (2005) Kalarippayat: India's Ancient Martial Art, Paladin Press

3. Malabar Manual , Vol I-III , by William Logan

4. New Accounts of the East Indies by Captain Alexander Hamilton, Chapter XV

5. P.J.Cherian ( Ed) PERSPECTIVES ON KERALA HISTORY- The Second Millennium ,CHAPTER-III,Consolidation of Agrarian Society - Political Processes -Dr.M. G. S. Narayanan

6. Society in Medieval Malabar. a Study Based on Vadakkan Pattukal by Mathew, K. S

That's pretty good. We can go ahead and add that to the article. Yeah, as you said. The section describes Kalaripayattu more than the actual relation between Nairs and the art. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vivin (talk • contribs) 17:13, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, i am happy that you liked it. Could you then add these contents to the main article text because i donot know to wikify and reorganize the references. It would be very nice if someone who knows it already does it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.99.165.173 (talk) 12:01, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

See most of kalari traners were ezhavas.(Dont ask me the list.. you all know ) how come s small group of ezhavas involved in it.? see Viswa Vijnana Kosham says: Chinese were taught Karate by a Buddhist monk from India. It is a modified form of kalaripayattu. Buddhist who were against war used the art of self-defence without use of weapons. Ezhavas were Buddhists.(i dont think you will object that) It sounds to reason that Nairs learned kalaripayattu from Ezhavas. 124.125.228.205 05:41, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

No we don't know. What's your reference? --vi5in^[talk] 05:51, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Vats references that Karalripayattu is a nair art.? also vats the references which does say nair women were not prostitutes? 100s of refs says that u go and refer them in google.124.125.228.205 06:17, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Either show the references or go away. --vi5in^[talk] 17:59, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Please stop with the attacks, control the insecurity. The Buddhism-Ezhava-Kalarippayattu link is extremely far-fetched, I know already that people won't find references to it. Also that Kalarippayattu is by no means an "art of self-defence without use of weapons", northern Kalaripayyatu is focused on weapons. The fact that Nair families had a custom of training in Kalarippayattu though this tradition declined (my great-grand uncle last one to train because of custom) should mean that Kalarippayattu is definately associated with Nairs though I barely see any Nair references in the article, whereas only a minority of Ezhavas/Thiyyas are involved in Kalari. "which were the real kingmakers like the ancient Gramavadins or Gramanis, a term applied to communities like Nadars and Ezhavas. They were the very ancient ruling tribes of India.Link [1]" what on Earth is this?. Ezhavas and Nadars the ancient ruling tribes of India?. I thought Ezhavas were from Sri Lanka. Ezhavas seem to have done it all from what is written about them Wikipedia.B Nambiar 08:38, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

"The references for the Nair dominance of militia is already provided in my earlier Kalaripayattu write up : in addition for those who may still have a doubt i am providing two other passages by William Logan - the administrator of British Malabar and his observation.Here is a reading of Logan's description of the role of the Nairs in the feudal system and the change occurring in the land tenure since the fall of the perumals. Logan's description is thus:"

"The Nairs were as the Keralolpatti expressely says, the people of "the eye", "the hand" and "the order" and it was their duty to prevent the rights from being curtailed or suffered to fall into disuse. So that they had as a guild higher functions in the body politic than merely ploughing the rice fields and controlling the irrigated lands... The Six Hundred were the heads of the Nair militia of the nad, the karanavar (elders or managers) of the families of authority - taravads - in the taras (Nair villages) constituting the Nad (country)...In fact the other function appertaining to the Six Hundred, namely kanam (supervision) appears to have been the function of giving the land in trust to the proper workers in the body politic and of gathering from them in due course the shares of produce due to the persons in authority. The Nairs were no doubt spread over the whole phase of the country (as they still are) protecting all rights suffering none to fall into disuse. But with the extinction of the supreme Kon or King in the 9th century A.D. the share of produce due to him did not pass to those (the present Rajas) who supplied in some measures his place, but the great bulk of the people - the Nairs, the Six Hundred - with whom in their corporate capacities all power rested."

"In addition Willima Logan in the preface of his book says :." "I would more especially call attention to the central point of interest, as I look at it, in any descriptive and historical account of the Malayali race - the position, namely, which was occupied for centuries on centuries by the Nair caste in the civil and military organization of the province, - a position so unique and so lasting that but for foreign intervention there seems no reason why it should not have continued to endure for centuries on centuries to come." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.99.165.173 (talk) 11:05, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Worthy of add in my opinion as it has references, which incidentally I have read (Malabar Manual).B Nambiar 02:35, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Just adding some details added above.

Kalaripayattu is the Kerala form of martial art. Nairs and Ezhavas are the major communities which practise it now. Other communities also learn it. Now this is almost like kathakali. In olden days Ezhavas were running kalaris. In van Rheede's memorandum of 1667, the Dutch Governor has written : " The silgos(chegos)usually serve to teach nayros in the fencing school" (meaning = Ezhavas teach nairs in the kalaris). Aromal Chekavar and Thacholi Othena Kurup were the famous heroes of sixteenth century. Chekavar was an Ezhava and Othenan a Nair by caste.Disputes between rulers were settled by 'ankam' by chekavars in those days. The encyclopedia ( Viswa vijnana kosham) says: a Buddhist monk of Kerala introduced 'karate'in China. Karate is a form of self-defence without the use of weapons. The monk must have learned kalaripayattu and modified it as karate. 124.125.228.205 12:40, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Hendrik Adriaan van Rheede tot Draakenstein famous for his book Hortus malabaricus (which was later also referenced by Carolus Linnaeus) was the Dutch governor of Cochin and in this capacity wrote several memorandums and letters during his tenure. I am presenting here a link with a complete list of Dutch records (from cochin, Coromandel, Bombay and Bengal) which also includes among many other documents also letters written to and by Van Rheede. So kindly go through this PDF and do let me know the item number from this PDF document that is “the memorandum” you are talking about (because just a memorandum of 1667 is nor helpful) . So that I can try to procure this document and check. http://databases.tanap.net/ead/html/Chennai_DutchRecordsPresslist/pdf/Chennai_DutchRecordsPresslist.pdf Thanks in advance —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.99.165.173 (talk) 13:44, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I think this will clear everything. The details are here. It says Ezhavas(otherwise called silgos), tree climbers , also bound to wars and arms. These people will also serve to teach nayros in fencing school;further theior occupation is to tap coconut trees and suri, arrack and sugar therefrom, so that they usually have plenty of pelf. refer point 108 of this page here [1]. page number 50. The book name is Hendrik Adriaan Van Reede Tot Drakenstein (1636-1691) and Hortus Malabaricus by J. Heniger. ISBN 906191681X. Published 1986 CRC Press. 61.95.201.56 06:22, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Truth behind the budhist monk-extrapolated claims

He was the third son of the Pallava king Sugandha from Kancheepuram by the name Bodhidharma (He was known as Bada/Ta Mo in chinese; Japanese: Daruma) and was very well educated in Vedas, Budhism, medicine, meditation, philosophy and Vajramushti (unarmed combat), Varma Kalai (known as Marma Adi in Kerala) and Kuttu Varisai from his Gurus. Bodhi Dharma was extremely religious and this extreme religious attitude caused his father, King Sugandha to arrange a marriage for the prince as a distraction. The adamant Bodhi Dharma (Bada) became a Budhist monk instead , and migrated to China somewhere around 495-520 AD and established a temple in the Shao mountain forest . This temple/monastery/order came to be known as Shaolin temple and propagated what we know today as Shaolin Kungfu. Some lineages of Karate also claimed Shaolin origins. Martial arts traditions in Japan and Korea, and Southeast Asia cite this Chinese influence as transmitted by Buddhist monks. So this is the link between oriental martial arts and Kalaripayattu and also this poor Budhist monk was therefore neither an Ezhava nor a Nair but a Pallava prince. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.99.165.173 (talk) 12:42, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Why do you need to bring in Ezhava into this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.147.58.6 (talk) 17:28, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

There is no source even remotely suggesting Bodhidharma was an Ezhava(or a Nair for that matter). The very conclusion is OR based on the Ezhava Buddhist/Sri Lankan theory. It is not for sure that Bodhidharma is even South Indian. But yea I agree this should be on the Ezhava talk page not the Nair one as it brings some valid points.B Nambiar 00:16, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh i apologize because i probably infered from the tone of the comment by 124.125.228.205 on 05:41, 26 October 2007 under the Kalaripayattu section an effort to hijack a historical figure to a specific community without a sound reason or facts. So i just was a bit amused and probably got carried away by sarcasm.I apologize. I have removed the first line now.

Lets not not talk much about Bodhidharma and karate. Lets come back to Kalari. Its ezhavas who trained nairs kalari and related Marama chikitsa and its form varma adi. If you take some examples for famous king Zamorin, kallingu madathil an ezhava family of calicut were the kalari trainers. If you take panthalam king Cheerapanchira and vallabhasseril were the kalari trainers. if you take kayamkulam kingdom, alummootil channars were kalari trainers and varanapallil panickers were commandors. if you mudakathur(Mavelikkara), lakshana panickers were kalari trainers.Mundakkal chekavars were part army of venadu and were kalari trainers. Puthiooram veed had famous kalari. Tulunadan kalari was also run by ezhava trainers. These are just some of the example you can put here. 124.125.228.205 06:33, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry but i completely fail to understand this logic. All authentic historical documents one checks most of them clearly states that Kalaripayattu was dominated by Nairs. Zarilli, Cherian, Logan , Glough and others , almost every objective documentation states that Nairs dominated the military and Kalaripayattu, though there was a fringe minority which comprised of chaathira, chekors and muslim and christians.Nobody here on the Nair page denies this fringe. everybody understands and respects this historical fact but then that does not mean that we generalize the fringe as predominant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.99.165.173 (talk) 11:34, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

could you please tell me where PHILLIP B. ZARRILLI refrers that Kalaripayattu was dominated by Nairs after referring his papers here[2]. We all know that he has done better work on Kalaripayattu than anyone. 61.95.201.56 11:59, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

You unfortunately went to his website that does not contain the reserach article in question so you can refer this research article Zarrilli, Phillip B. (1998). When the Body Becomes All Eyes: Paradigms, Discourses and Practices of Power in Kalarippayattu, a South Indian Martial Art. Oxford: Oxford University Press. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.99.165.173 (talk) 12:14, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

See man, Zarrilli, Phillip B has never mentioned much about chekavan caste. He has never mentioned much about ankachekavars, aromal chekavar, uniyarcha etc. But talks about thacholi othenana. We can see the influence CVN kalari master here. Also he talks more about Keralolpathi of brahmins and describise more about Aryan influence of the art. Mum much traditional inluence. Though he had done much research on kalari, its less authentic that other refrence which is clearly gives description of letter of Duth resercher very long back. Go kerala, ask anyone in kulathoor in TVM who were actually trainers of ettuveettil pillamar.If you can figure out familis whose memebers were part of ettuveettil pillamar's army, you can conclude on the subject.124.125.228.205 12:22, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Going by that same logic i can say that Van Rheede my have a sympathetic corner for siligos because of Itty Achuthan having helped him in his work for 30 years :-))). If we start discrediting people and their research articles then we will end up nowhere .The best way is to analyze them and try to be as objective and analytical in drawing conclusions .And by the way zarilli does mention chekors and chaathira and states that though nairs were mainly in to Kalaripayattu few families of chaathira and chekor seem to be given this right also. Read the original artcle you will see how it has been stated it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.99.165.173 (talk) 12:36, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

This will clear everything. The details are here. It says Ezhavas(otherwise called silgos), tree climbers , also bound to wars and arms. These people will also serve to teach nayros in fencing school;further theior occupation is to tap coconut trees and suri, arrack and sugar therefrom, so that they usually have plenty of pelf. refer point 108 of this page here [3]. page number 50. The book name is Hendrik Adriaan Van Reede Tot Drakenstein (1636-1691) and Hortus Malabaricus by J. Heniger. ISBN 906191681X. Published 1986 CRC Press. 124.125.228.205 11:48, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Your seem to be repeatedly re-stating this statement by Van Rheede. Analyze the sentence carefully, he does not use "they teach" but he uses "will also serve to teach". This is a tone with a futuristic supposition and use for the chekors. He may have been discontent with the fact that chekors are being restricted as contract fighters for the upper castes and that he suggests that they may be used for training Nairs on a large scale.This has a suggestion tone rather and does not seem to be stating what is prevalent.Kindly do understand that myintentions are not to omit chaathira or chekor or muslim or christian practioners of Kalari even though they were fringe minority but to present the historical predominance of Kalaripayattu and Nairs- which is a fact supported by literature. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.99.165.173 (talk) 12:10, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

comman man!!! dont fed up with analysing too much. Now-a-days an LKG student can understand that. also mean they have many professions. that it. Also by chekon he doesnt mean only ankachekavars. he talks about the entire community. see his description. 124.125.228.205 12:22, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

A rational person tends to be analytical :-))) For what life is life without reasoning my friend ?? You don´t have to get upset or personal :-)) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.99.165.173 (talk) 12:30, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Nair militia- Additional references for the article

In case the moderator may be interested for considering additional references from anthroplogical research articles for Nair militia, I am providing here with 4 new references plus the exact statement from them.

1. “The Nairs who once formed the militia of the land and tenantry of the Brahmin janmis” Economic Backwardness of Harijans in Kerala P. SivanandanSocial Scientist, Vol. 4, No. 10 (May, 1976), pp. 3-28

2.“Peace and order were insured in an area by the presence of the local Nayar militia. There were usually one or two temples in each tara or desam” Kerala and Madras: A Comparative Study of Ecology and Social Structure Joan P.MencherEthnology, Vol. 5, No. 2 (Apr., 1966), pp. 135-171

3. “It is also probable that the Nayar kinship system was speci- fically influenced by their occupation as a permanent, specialized militia” Changing Kinship Usages in the Setting of Political and Economic Change Among the Nayars of Malabar E. Kathleen Gough,The Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland, Vol. 82, No. 1 (Jan. - Jun., 1952), pp. 71-88

4. “the case of the Nayars may be the exigencies of service as militia men” A Study of Polyandry by Prince Peter of Greece Current Anthropology, Vol. 6, No. 1 (Feb., 1965), pp. 88-104 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.99.165.173 (talk) 15:03, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Martial class

)

Here are some references . Even though Nairs had secondary professions, I believe they were always martial first and foremost.

• Nayars of Malabar
• Theoretical Perspectives on Gender and Development
• Manual of the Administration of the Madras Presidency
• A commentary on Malabar Law and Custom
• The Oriental Interpreter and Treasury of East Indian Knowledge
• Classified Catalogue of the Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh
• Letters from Malabar
• Our Indian Protectorate
• Magellan's Voyage Around the World
• Primitive Civilizations
• Reminiscences of Life and Sport in Southern India
• The History of Mankind
• A reply to the letters of Abbe Dubois on the state of Christianity in India
• The Evolution of Marriage
• Six Months in India --vi5in^[talk] 04:17, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Almost all written history and manuals on kerala/malabar regards Nairs as a martial class. They were undoubtedly the warrior class of Kerala. This is so clear from the section called "Quotes about Nairs" in the article. My question to Panikker is that if you think Ezhavas were also a martial class, can you come out with such quotes or references about ezhavas as well (of course, except for they mythical ‘vadakkan pattu’).I am not denying the fact that there were a small group of Ezhavas who had martial tradition. But a community gets classified into a class only when majority of the community members falls into that class. Having said that, the majority of Ezhavas were engaged in farming including toddy tapping where as majority of Nairs were engaged in Army. Exceptions are there in all communities and not just Ezhavas. Kuruchiars (tribe) formed a major chunk of Pazhassi's commandos, Muslims were part of Zamorin’s navy (even many Nairs converted to Islam to serve the navy since travelling in Sea was a taboo for the Hindus those days). Christians also served in the army of many small travancore states (before Marthanda Varma).So if Ezhavas are to be considered as martial, pretty much all other castes also are martial in Kerala.Keraleeyan —Preceding comment was added at 08:52, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Reply

1. Link [4] Its they also belong to martial class and chekon the title show that.

1. Link [5] This says chegos(ezhavan or chekavan) who came in ancient time to this country. The tradition is that they came from Cylon and belongs to millitary caste.

1. refer point 108 of this page here Link [6]. page number 50. The book name is Hendrik Adriaan Van Reede Tot Drakenstein (1636-1691) and Hortus Malabaricus by J. Heniger. ISBN 906191681X. Published 1986 CRC Press. It says Ezhavas(otherwise called silgos), tree climbers , also bound to wars and arms. These people will also serve to teach nayros in fencing school;further theior occupation is to tap coconut trees and suri, arrack and sugar therefrom, so that they usually have plenty of pelf.

1. link[7]. its here also.

124.125.228.205 10:25, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Please don't refer any links.WEB PAGES ARE NO GOOD SOURCE FOR ENCYCLOPEDIA. Anyone can add a web article and provide a link. Also don't take the name 'Chekon' (and all its variant names) as only Ezhava. Chekavar is a name given to all those warriors who used to fight for their masters and thus it included Nairs and Muslims also.Here again, it is only a negligible section which did this and most of the Ezhavas were into other occupations mainly farming.

Keraleeyan —Preceding comment was added at 11:13, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

FYI, chekon was the caste. You re referring to ankachekor. coming back to the references all are contents of books.124.125.228.205 11:21, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I fear your links have back fired. The first link is only a comparison between Nairs and and Ezhavas and a futile attempt based on assumptions to prove that the Nairs and Ezhavas have a common ancestry and thus, Ezhavas are also martial. The second link apparently, talks about the lower castes of Kerala and it is mentioned that the Ezhavas used to protect the Ajari (carpenters) as a custom. Also it mention clearly that the PRINCIPAL OCCUPATION IS THAT OF DRAWING TODDY. I think your argument based on this link has boomeranged.Keraleeyan

Please dont jump into conclusion. you have not refered all books. what about 3rd book?

Whether they are protecting Brahmin or ajari is not big deal. Racially they were martial class. one more you guys were talking about main profession of nairs being martial . Now a large number of Nair woman did prostituion. so you guys have to agree that all nair women were prostitutes just like terming ezhavas as toddy tappers.124.125.228.205 04:58, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

No need to write about the third link as it is already written in bold letters in the same sentence. There is nothing more than that referred in the book as well. There is absolutely no reference in any of these above mentioned books which states that the Ezhavas were a martial class, at the same time, quite consistently it says that they did farming including toddy tapping as the main occupation. This is pretty much same with all other history books also. I do agree that there was a small section of Ezhavas who had martial tradition and there is nothing wrong in adding that in the Ezhava article. However, there is no point in trying to prove certain historical facts wrong. Unfortunately there is no way you can change the history, just by harping on some fallacy and by calling others prostitutes, in an anonymous cowardly fashion, you cannot just change anything other than exposing your own REAL CULTURE.Keraleeyan

even if you blabber for 1000 times, you cannot change the fact that Nair woman didnt do prostitution in past. A section of Ezhavas did toddy tapping.(majority of ezhavas accept that fact). it was good execise tooo...:) Nair women did prostitution. Thats fact . why dot you guys accept that.(Dont tell sambdham or vesyvruthi is also good excecise:)). Its also part of nair culture, right? thats also great culture right?124.125.228.205 07:38, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

I do agree, even though the nairs as a community had multiple professions , the "predominant profession" of the community was military oriented. Infact Fuller in his article "nayars today" as well as Praveen Kodoth both note that the extent of nairs in the military was so much that when the British disbanded the nair militia in many areas, it caused a serious social change by strengthening the sambandham tie and therefore it was in danger of destabilizing the matrilinial tharavadu unit (as the success of the matrilinial tharavadu was inherent with the looseness of the sambandham).Along similar lines the predominant profession of the ezhava/thiyya community was toddy tapping and all other professions were practiced by only a very small proportion of the profession. Why do you forget that there were only 8 families in the total of Kerala that were chekor ? ONLY 8 families !!! and the only one of legendary proportion id puthooram. So this is why sociologists when they attribute profession , class nairs as a martial caste and Ezhava as toddy tappers. It is not to be seen as a caste bias or war it is only rational. For example the brahmin caste moos are not permitted to study vedam and they have to study other things yet they are also classifies as a priestly class , similarly with the chaathira of the namboothiris.Simply because majority profession is used as the profession of the community. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.99.165.173 (talk) 11:42, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Of course it varies from sub-caste to sub-caste and family to family but Nair history is so predominately martial I don't think I've heard of any caste in India that can rival them in terms of martial identification. Nair and martial nobility are pretty much synonymous from a Kerala history viewpoint Panikkar, your evident inferiority complex is not required as most communities of Kerala these days have left historical traditions in some part at least and does not have much relevance to modern day Kerala.B Nambiar 12:41, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Predominant profession is always cited as the profession of the class irrespective of other minor professional practices. Namboothiris are generally thought of as priest because their predominant profession is preisthood inspite of the small proportion of families that belong to professions like adukkala, arangu and Kadavu that donot study vedam or perform shanthi.So that is why predominant profession logic compels nairs to be classified as a martial class and ezhavas as toddy tappers. I have given below the different categories that namboothriri families fall in to based on their profession for substantiating this: 1.Aadu -They are specialised in Yaagam 2. Edu - They have the right to acquire knowledge and teach Sanskrit, Vedam, Linguistics, Astronomy, Astrology, Architecture and so on. 3. Bhiksha (alms, symbolising a saint or a samnyaasi): They have the right to become a saint (or samnyaasi). 4. Picha (also means alms, in crude form): They are Othikkans, helping other Namboothiris to perform rituals. 5. Othu (Spiritual hymns): This class of Namboothiris was basically teachers of Othu (Vedam). 6. Saanthi (temple priesthood): These Namboothiris are priests in temples. 7. Adukkala These Namboothiri families were specialists in large-scale cooking and catering. 8. Arangu (stage): This special group of Namboothiris, called Chaathira Namboothiris, was a military group. Their evening entertainment was Panemkali (Sanghakkali). 9. Panthi (dining structure): Namboothiris like Graamani, Thangal, Vaal-Nambi and Ashtavaidyans (all Mooss families except Vaidhyamadham) belong to this category. 10.Kadavu (bathing points in the pond): Elayathu and Adikal are Namboothiris belonging to this category. Elayathu helps members of other castes to perform their rituals, while Adikal uses meat and blood to perform temple rituals.

You guys are talking about main profession of nairs being martial . Now a large number of Nair woman did prostituion. so you guys have to conclude that all nair women were prostitutes just like terming ezhavas as toddy tappers.124.125.228.205 04:59, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Ezhavas main historical and perhaps current predominant profession is that of toddy tapper, nothing Ezhava users can do to change that fact, except perhaps omit it in the POV Ezhava article. I mean stating Ezhavas as a martial class just because of a small minority within the community is such a huge claim I can't believe people would attempt to make it. Sources and local knowledge describe Ezhava/Thiyya/Billavas as toddy tappers and nothing else, as that is what the community is known for, and also Sri Narayana Guru. Nothing users will say will change that fact. Pathetic mud-slinging claiming Nair women engaged in prostitution is false and only undermines the credibility of the Ezhava argument, that is to somehow describe a misleading history to make it look better.B Nambiar 06:36, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

The profession of prostitution has many different features to Sambandam and you nor any users cannot prove it as prostitution.B Nambiar 12:06, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

You don't deserve a reply from me. Nevertheless, this reply is to let you know that by making such mere rhetoric statements you have comprehensively accepted that you have failed in your attempt to prove that the Ezhavas were a martial class. You are all ends up and whatever you are writing now is only an emotional outburst of your frustration to prove otherwise.Keraleeyan —Preceding comment was added at 09:30, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Guys, just ignore that troll. It's rather obvious he has absolutely nothing useful to contribute. Let's focus on actual points, and on comments from people who actually have an intelligent opinion. --vi5in^[talk] 00:10, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Encyclopedia britannica about Nairs

"also spelled Nair Hindu caste of the Indian state of Kerala. Before the British conquest in 1792, the region contained small, feudal kingdoms, in each of which the royal and noble lineages, the militia, and most land managers were drawn from the Nayars and related castes" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.99.165.173 (talk) 13:54, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

The Samanthans are basically aristocratic Kiriyam Nairs and the Thirupad Kshatriyas have Nair origins, only difference being that some Rajahs wear a punul (this is not widespread amongst Rajahs either). There are Nairs who are Samanthans and have "Varma" title, as well as Thirupads who have "Varma". The Britannica entry should be put into the article.Malayaliyan 07:12, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

NAIR AS A RELIGION

Let's discuss the concept of NAIR as a religion independent of Hinduism. This idea is not original, since the same was flouted by the Late M P Narayana Pillai, writer and columnist a year or so before his death. Let's consider the Nair traditions of worship, such as rituals in obeisance to the Serpent Gods.Was the custom imbibed from the Aryan faith? No, Certainly not. The Nairs had a systemised religion and form of worship that must have amazed the early Aryans who crossed into Tulunadu (Payyannur, Kasargod) in the early centuries of the last century or later (it's again a matter of dispute).This fertile land in the shade of the Sahyan had developed the Tamtra Vidya and Mantra Vidya much before the advent iof Aryans. Shakti or the Primordial Female was worshipped too, and so was her Yoni. The Nairs did n't have to wait for the Aryans to come down south and teach them the art of invoking power.The culture had established itself, already by then, and what followed was little more than an assimilation of sorts.(For example, 'kATHAKALI' evolved from 'Ramanattam' which in turn must have been the transmutation of a form of war-dance unique to the Nairs, who had , by then perfected 'Kalaripayattu'the martial art form that helped keep the Nair Chieftains firmly on the saddle. )

M P Narayana Pillai points to the stark differences between the Hindus who induced their females to immolate themselves in the husband's funeral pyre, to Nairs among whom the female always had the right to dispence with the husmand(s) whom she had developed a dislike for. Nair females enjoyed great freedom a time when women were systematically relegated to secondary status every where else.How did it all turn out like this and what's common between Hindus and Nairs? Let's discuss.Toothpaste Kumar 08:20, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Sati was prohibited in Kerala by Shankaracharya as per the 64 anaacharms (irregular customs) prescribed by him for Kerala.Presently the matrilinial inheritance is hypothesized to have its roots in the Chera-Chola conflict. By custom chastity and fidelity are not forced on Nair women as it is traditionaly not exprected of her as she can choose to propagate her family through suitors superior to her that amuse her fancy or guarantee social ascension. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.99.165.173 (talk) 19:02, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Sambandham and Nairs as Kshatriyas

There is no doubt that Nairs are Kshathriyas if they are not then that means therewere no kshathriyas in kerala,because all the Kings/Rajas,Nadhuvazhis/Generals,90% of Warriors comes from Nair clans.except 3 Namputhiri Nadhuvahis(Ambalapuzhz,Edappaly,Venganadu) all others from north to south are/were nairs. very few Ezhavas/chovans practiced "kalaripayattu", they are chekovans but they fought "ankam" to find solutions for some disputes,first "kozhi ankam" then "alankam".but nairs like othena kurup fought for their self pride or pride.sambandham system is not a prostitution ,its help to protect the "marumakkthaya" system and family.mens were warriors and women protect the family intrest,if any of the women from nair cast polluted or if she engaged in any other relation that not accepted by the society would be killed by her relative and same in the case of her lover also.if any chovan/chandalan dare to come near to a nair lady he would be cut in to pieces(ref:-William Logan,Durato Burbose)Ravithampi 11:22, 11 November 2007 (UTC). Ravithampi 12:19, 11 November 2007 (UTC)Randuthara Achhan, Eruvazhinadu Nambiar,Karikkatidam Nayanar,Vengayil Nayanar,Nilesharam Raja,vadakara Vazhunore,Kottayam Swaroopam,Chirayakal Raja,Samoothiri,Beppur swaroopam,Mangatt Achhan,Para Nambi,Kavalappara swaroopam muppil nair,Kuthiravattm muppil Nair,Eralpad,Palakkadu Achhan,Valluvakonathiri,Kodungaloor swaroopam,Cheraneloor Karthvu,vellose nambiar,mappranam prabhu, Paliyath Achhan,Karappuram Kaimal,perumpadappu muppil(cochi raja),karappuram Kaimal,Anchi Kaimal,Thekkam koore,Vadakkan koore,Ranni karth, meenechil kartha,poojar raja, pandalam raja, kayankulam,madathumcoore,attingal,deshinganadu,Venadu etc are some of the main raja/nadhuvazhis of kerala, they all are comes from Nair clans and 90% of militia also comes from nairs after 9 years of rigierous training they are getting the title of a nair, then they have wright to kill their offenders and eny of their "chengathm" killed in any fight they will fight for justices("kanninu kannu") eye for an eye, and this "kudipaka" continues to the generationsRavithampi 12:19, 11 November 2007(UTC)

For ur FYI, ancestors of Panthalam,Travancore, venadu kayamkulam kings were from Tamil nadu. Its that some of these kings/their descedecnts had sambatham with nair woman/families and many these families achieved wealth and become landlords and local rulers. Nairs were into all profession from washer man to soldiers to protecters ro temples to devadasis.

Vvmundakkal 09:04, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

No references concerning the various professions of Nairs however there are references stating that Ezhavas are a toddy-tapper caste and that the majority of them engaged in that profession.B Nambiar 09:51, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

There is also more references stating that Nair women were prostitutes(the majority of them engaged in that profession)Vvmundakkal 12:57, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

A comment from User keralaone in some of discssion is added here Sambandan was the worst moral crime committed by the namboothiri's and other royals on nairs on whom they had full control over. I would call it genocide. Imagine your boss wanting sexual favours from your sisters and mothers so that you can stay on job and support your family. Imagine the Absence of Father and its effects on children's development and family functioning. Imagine having brothers who do not have common father. Kids brought up under such circumstances are not going to be natural leaders. Similar situation had happened to Native Americans after they were conquered by the Europeans. Luckily one of the first things that NSS did after its formation was to put an end to this and bring nairs into main stream. i think its a good opinion. Nairs have accept the fact as ezhavas did

Vvmundakkal 13:00, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Here is note Devadasi concept:If you want to know about your looks, you need to know about the first order Tipu sultan gave to Nairs after capturing Malabar. This order in its orginal form can be seen in the mysore museum, recently I found the same in one sitesYou can just read it here below:

Here after you must proceed in an opposite manner, dwell quietly and pay your dues like good subjects and since it is a practice with you for one women to associate with ten men and leave your mothers and sisters unconstrained in their obscene practices and are hence all born in adultery and are more shameless in your connections than the heasts of the filed. I hereby require you to forsake these sinful practices and live like the rest of mankind, and if you are disobedient to these commands, I have made repeated vows to honour the whole of you with Islam and to march all the chief persons to the seat of the Government.

http://www.jaihoon.com/watan/indarbmappilacommunity.htm (this quote is from the book

Wilks, opcit., Vol. II, p. 120, pp. 185-186.)

do u need more books for reference

Vvmundakkal 09:08, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

"There is a belief that the Valluvanad Rajas are the descendants of the Pallavas of Tamil Nadu which means they are migrants from Tamil Nadu. Between B.C. 300 and A.D.300 the Pallavas, headquartered at Kanchipuram, had a branch ruling from Sreevilliputhur to increase the stability of their kingdom. They were valiant kings" http://www.varma.net/articles/valluvan1.php --Keralone 10:38, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Keyword "belief". Even if the Valluvanad Rajas were of Pallava origin, they follow Nair/Malayala Kshatriya customs and probably assimilated into the Nair caste as some other migrants from Tamil Nadu did such as Tamil Padam Nairs.

Sambandham differs from prostitution because:

1 The Nair or other woman chooses the partner and length of relationship, kind of reverse prostitution as Bostonboy35 suggests.

2 It is not based on sexual favors, it is defined as a marital system.

3 It is not an exchange of money for services as the prostitution profession is.

4 You defame Malayala Kshatriyas, Nairs, Ambalavasis and Marars with that false claim.

B Nambiar 13:34, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Nambiar:you are an accused and Judge at the same time.Good try.If you leave WP it will do a lot of good to the Nair article.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.151.88.112 (talk) 07:06, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

There is no need to post the same thing twice. I don't see how my leaving WP will "do a lot of good to the Nair article" as I haven't made any changes to the Nair article as of yet. If by my leaving WP you can edit the Nair article to include a false claim as a result of an inferiority complex that Nair's practiced prostitution you are the one who must leave as that goes against the definition of sambandham and the definition of prostitution. You Ezhava users have gone against WP policy because you consistently challenge the user not the content.B Nambiar 07:15, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Are the references genuine? the fundamental definition and features of prostitution (Prostitution is sexual services in exchange for remuneration.) differs from sambandham I outlined earlier. I never imagined sambandham would be considered prostitution until an Ezhava user claimed it was in spite, which would have involved an impure mind and thoughts, so to speak. How can a marital system also be prostitution, what kind of logic do you apply which makes two different meanings into one? I don't believe that has much purpose as it distorts meaning itself.B Nambiar 13:23, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Mr. VVmundakkal should read some artiles on how anthroplogists term ezhava community

refer http://www.press.umich.edu/titleDetailDesc.do?id=115818 —Preceding unsigned comment added by :::::

134.99.165.173 (talk) 14:29, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Hello Mr its brahmin who just considered ezhavas as untouchables. so nairs also(only nair men). See You might be knowing that A Nair must remain 12 steps off a Brahmin.(only nair men) however the same Brahmin used the nair women as prostitutes. its known fact.Vvmundakkal 03:34, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

No not all Nairs were untouchable to Namoothiris. Kiryath Nairs are not untouchable to them and Malayala Kshatriyas are basically Nairs whom they favored. But all Ezhavas were untouchable to Nairs, Namboothiris, Ambalavasis, Marars and Malayala Kshatriyas.B Nambiar 03:10, 16 November 2007 (UTC) Nambiar, You are an accused and a Jude a t the same time.Ezhavas have no problem in accepting Toddy tapping as one of the professions they did as against,Nairs prostitution and servant status. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.151.88.112 (talk) 06:54, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Vvmundakkal, please stop trolling. I don't see why you are trying so hard to provide a link between Sambandham and Prostitution. There is absolutely no link between the two. Everyone has shown you the fundamental differences between the too. If you keep persisting, all you are doing is trolling (see WP:TROLL). --vi5in^[talk] 16:27, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

DEINDENT First of all, you must advice other nair editors against their personal attacks. its not a troll. this is a discussion forum. and i can give 100 books which says nair women did prostitution Vvmundakkal 03:24, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I've removed trolling comments. Secondly as far as your books, they state an opinion. That's because those were books by European commentators who had no idea what "Sambandham" really was. For the books that you have, there are numerous other books that explain "Sambandham" for what it really was. It was a form of polyandry or hypergamy. Prostitution is defined as providing sexual favors in return for money. Sambandham was completely different. How about this; show me these "100's of books" and we'll discuss how pertinent they are. And please don't show me google links. Use books from Google Books. Thanks. --vi5in^[talk] 19:09, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

It's disheartening to notice that certain individuals revel in casting aspersions on others, other communities; perhaps the annonymity provided by the Internet encourage timorous enthusiasts to put on the garbs of forthrightness and bravery. What they would n't even think of whispering in the wildest of their dreams- when facing an antagonist directly- these pseudo-brave men feel free to express vehemently in the comfort of the net.I suggest that the unwanted comments and discussions are expunged for good. The moderator should take a firm stance in this regard. Let the contributors to the discussion pages ensure that their mental faculties are employed to focus on the historical and social relevance of the Nairs and unravel the hitherto unknown details, rather than digressing into the bedrooms and toilets.Also, I feel that the perceived superiority of the Nairs over Scheduled and Backward castes/tribes need not be discussed in detail here.Vidya Menon 08:26, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Great point by Vidya Menon. This is the same old thing abt sambandhams etc. Btw Nairs "could approach a Namboodiri but not touch em"..the 12 foot thing is wrong..anyhow isnt it time this discussion stopped..the entire "imagine the kids without their dads around"..purely silly a statement considering that uncles were busy showering the kids with everything in place of a dad...anyway end Manu

Vivaham

Some people feel that this section is rather long. Any suggestions on how to condense it? --vi5in^[talk] 19:43, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

The Nayars and the Definition of Marriage

Kindly find the link to an article by Kathleen Gough one of the most most reputed authority on nayar anthropology. The article is "The Nayars and the Definition of Marriage. Journal of the Royal anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland. E. Kathleen Gough 1959" http://orion.oac.uci.edu/~dbell/html/body_gough.html

Proposed concise version for vivaham

Instead of the vivaham older and newer version just one section vivaham is proposed.

Vivaham

Presently the Nairs do not practice either of the three forms of marriages described above but perform Vivaham (Marriage) recognized by the Hindu Marriage act of 1955. It is ceremonially the shortest in comparison to its counterparts from other Indian castes and regions. The marriage ceremony among Nairs has changed considerably over the past two hundred years.

Vivaha Nischayam / betrothal - The first ceremony is the Vivaha Nischayam or simply Nischayam. In this ceremony, an astrologer is consulted to set an auspicious date for the wedding. Horoscopes may or may not be compared depending on the wish of the individual or their families. After both families consent to the marriage, the couple visits the bride's home. During the celebration, there may be a mothiram mattal (ring exchange) ceremony. This ceremony may also be conducted later, during the actual vivaham ceremony.

Kalyanam / Marriage - The actual wedding may take place in a kalyana mandapam (a hall rented for the occasion) or the padinitta (principal/western room of the bride´s house, where religious ceremonies are conducted), or a temple. The marriage proceeds through distinct ritualistic steps as described below.

Varavelppu - In this ritual, the bride's family receives the groom's family at the entrance of the venue of marriage, to the tune of nadaswarams (long wind-instruments) and the beats of the thayli (large drums beaten with curved sticks). The groom stands on a wooden plank while the bride's younger brother washes his feet. The bride's aunts perform aarti for the groom with a platter on which are arranged wicks made of twisted cotton. The groom is then escorted to the mandapam (platform constructed to perform the wedding rites) by two rows of young girls. One girl carries the changala vatta (sacred oil lamp), while another carries the ashtamangaliyam. The girls following the first two, carry the taala phuli (platters of rice, turmeric, and flowers on which oil lamps made of coconut shells are placed). With his parents on either side, the groom follows the girls around the mandapam and seats himself on the right side of the canopy, which is decorated by flowers, fabric, palm fronds, and banana stalks.

Thaali-kettu/ tying of the thaali-The bride is now escorted by her aunt or mother to the mandapam to the sound of the nadaswarams and thaylis and is made to stand facing to the east, with the groom facing her. At the auspicious moment set by the astrologer for the muhurtham (the most auspicious time), the groom ties the thaali (a marriage cord consisting of a gold ornament strung from a yellow thread ) around the bride's neck and this is accompanied by a special beating of drums (Ketti melam) or a special cry (Vai Kurava).

Vastradanam/Gift of cloth - After the tying of the thaali, the groom gifts the bride a sari and a blouse on a platter. He may also give her betel leaves and areca nuts. This signifies that he will now assume the responsibility of providing for her. The groom's mother also gifts the bride with some jewelry at this time. This custom is reminiscent of the Podamuri during the sambandham ritual.

Maala maattal / Exchange of garlands -The couple then exchange garlands accepting each other as life partners. The bride's father then places the bride's hand in the groom's, thus handing over his daughter to the groom in holy matrimony. Namaskaram /Anugraham vangal / blessing: The bride and groom touch the feet of the elders of the family and receive blessings and this process is called Namaskaaram . Sadhya / feast: After the blessings , the whole party is invited to take part in a feast.

Kudi veppu/ entering the bridegrooms house- This ritual involves the first entry of the newly wed in to the bride grooms house.The groom's mother and older female relatives perform aarti with an oil lamp (which rests on a platter heaped with rice mixed with turmeric) and receive them at the entrance. Both bride and groom enter the house, right foot forward. The bride is then required to kick over a large pot containing rice, symbolizing prosperity.

After the wedding ceremony a wedding reception may be performed if the families so wish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.99.165.173 (talk) 13:58, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

V K N or Vadakke Koottaalayil Narayanankutty Nair

I would assume, on the first place that a large number of the visitors to this page can read malayalam, and therefore a sizeable portion may be familiar with the "thriakshari" called VKN, the enfant terrible of Malayalam literature; a genius unsung; an intellectual derided by both the Left and right wings in Kerala's politics for the simple reason that he'd n't ever bothered to toe "the politically correct" line all through his illistrious career spanning five decades. While Tom , Dick and Harry were given - and continue to be given - state burials, the men in charge of Kerala's State Funds pretended they had n't heard of the giant's ( in real life too, for he was six feet 2")passing away.

I hope I do not have to elaoborate. VKN's satire is in a genre by itself.History at his fingertips,with an astonishing grasp of Classics in Sanskrit as well as in the modern European Languages, with his penetrating insights into the Political Farce called communism that foisted itself on the agrarian society in Kerala, VKN 's imagination captured the Palace Intrigues of Cochin with as much ease as it composed dissertations of Social comment on contemporary reality.

VKN has no equals. His literary style is one of its kind , perhaps in the entire world, notwithstanding his Hemingway like abhorrence of the adjective ( The adjective kills the verb- Ernest Hemingway.)

The creator of Payyans, Nanvaar, Chathans, Thandaars ( Thandan Raman, the new Ezhava capitalist post land reforms, whom Chathans has only scorn for!), Chekkans, Sir Chathu, Raman Namboothiri, Chekkan Rajavu ( a la Rajiv Gandhi), Colonel Renu, Ambi, Itoopu Muthalali a la Current Books Thoma,.... the characters are numerous and are very much alive, continuing to enthrall discerning readers, despite the changing times.

Well, the point is, it's time the intellectual Nair community that has prospered and made contributions in various walks of life, sat up and looked at the neglect. Let's promote VKN- though the old man would have scoffed at the very idea; he had n't cared to approach any "Purogamana Peruchazhi", in his own words, for help of any kind.

Let us get him his due- though posthumously.I would invite a lively discussion on this topic.

Akayil Ilaya Nair (talk) 11:58, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, that may be a tall order. For, it's quite likely that a good number of contributors to these pages,- including the inceptors, perhaps- are US Amercans and other NRIs who may not have even a good grasp of Malayalam (the language of the Nairs) , not to mention solid foundations in literature in order to go through and enjoy ( "conduct and enjoy", in VKN's own words) writings of a calibre that's beyond the cognizance of even the so called Malayalam Literary critics. VKN was perhaps the only writer desrving a Nobel.It is indeed disheartening that a genius of his standing will not even find a mention in the annals of Malayalam thanks to a few mediocre academicians and others, who, needless to add, cannot even hold a candle to the late "Sir Chathu". Vidya Menon (talk) 11:43, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Image request

{{sudo}} I have found a suitable image for the article:

File:Nayar Pillai.jpg

Ettuveedan Nair feudal chief

Could you please add this image to the article (preferably under the section "Subcastes")

Thank you Malayaliyan (talk) 07:08, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

moved from my talk, — xaosflux ^Talk 12:49, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

N Edit declined. I cannot verify what this image represents, since it comes from a website that is not in English. Sandstein 06:41, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

FYI

FYI to all. In case this place goes nuts, see this this fun we are having at Ezhava. If any of this have been ongoing, please comment there. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:50, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Some corrections

• The Theories of origin part mentions the Keralamahatmayam as an ancient sanskirt purana etc. In detail, it is an Upa Purana or sub Purana of the Bhoogola Purana ie it is a part of the latter. That needs to be added. (Source Travancore State Manual Vol I by Nagam Aiya)
• The highest of Swaroopathil Nairs were known as Paravoor Swaroopies and they were the only Swaroopi Nairs to have purification rites performed by Maarans because they were initially of the Illam subdivision. This needs to be mentioned in the subcastes section (Source Castes and Tribes of Southern India by Edgar Thurston) Thats it for now. Manu —Preceding comment was added at 09:12, 4 December 2007 (UTC)