Talk:Mythology/Archive 4

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

Explanation

Just to make it clear, my 'revision' was pretty much reverting the page back to the last article form it had before the one I ended up with when I came to read the article-- that is, some really stupid vandalism. I mean, jesus fucking christ, that's lame. Yes, takes two seconds to fix, and all that, but I figured I'd leave a comment just so any REAL editors can rest assured that I'm not taking any potshots at them.

I just, y'know, would like to see a goddamn article when I click a link to a goddamn article. If I wanted vandalism, I'd go to a public bathroom-- at least THERE the one-liners are actually amusing. --72.224.72.24 08:54, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Archived

Everything from prior to the re-creation of myth on January 18, 2006 has been archived. See the link above. October 7, 2005 and January 9, 2006 archived discussions are also available. JHCC (talk) 15:05, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Made an archive infobox. See it for past discussions. Lemegeton 14:08, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

myth

In view of the fairly clear consensus articulated above [see archive ], I moved the content of Myth/temp to myth and made Myth/temp a redirect to myth. For the edit history of Myth/temp, please see here. I also archived the old content of Talk:Myth, which is now here. I had made a couple of changes to Myth/temp earlier, so I've included the rationale for these here (lest anyone accuse me of deceptive editing practice). JHCC (talk) 20:53, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Myth vs. fiction again

I just created Category:Mythological kings to rescue Zeus out of Category:Fictional kings. - Haukur 13:40, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Well done. JHCC (talk) 14:23, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Good work; even the king of the gods needs to be rescued every now and then. KHM03 19:39, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Jollly good, i'm sure zeus gives a crap::::

I restored the above uncredited comment by 220.233.65.105, because my understanding of Wikipedia policy is that Talk page comments are not supposed to be deleted, only objected to if objectionable. Coyoty 05:41, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually, article talk pages are for discussing the article. Stray comments that do absolutely nothing to further the article can (and probably should) be removed. This isn't a blog. But then no big deal on that one either way, other than it looks like some anon with a dynamic IP address lurking in the shadows and mocking people. DreamGuy 15:03, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

As for policy, see WP:VAND#Types of vandalism. The relevant section (Talk page vandalism) states: Deleting the comments of other users from article Talk pages, or deleting entire sections thereof, is generally considered vandalism. Removing personal attacks is often considered legitimate, and it is considered acceptable to archive an overly long Talk page to a separate file and then remove the text from the main Talk page. The above does not apply to the user's own Talk page, where users generally are permitted to remove outside comments at their discretion. Wikipedia:Remove personal attacks is a guideline, not a policy, and there is not a clear consensus on this practice. JHCC (talk) 15:13, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Remove Personal Attacks is a guideline now, altho a disputed one. Regardless, Use Common Sense in cases like this - if its nonsense or personal attacks, removing it is perfectly reasonable. Removing others posts is only vandalism if they were legitimate posts to begin with. Nonsense "crap" comments by an anon does not fall into that category. KillerChihuahua^?!? 15:17, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Although I must admit I found it funny. Arkkeeper (talk) 15:39, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Onward and upward

Well, since discussion of multiple senses of "myth" has moved to myth and Talk:Myth, and since the article is still locked, we need to discuss what edits are planned for once the article is unlocked.

I see three areas for immediate attention:

1. putting together a good, clean definition of the academic sense of "myth" and "mythology,
2. crafting a suitable disclaimer regarding not ascribing truth or falsity to any religious or cultural beliefs, and
3. removing such disclaimers from the rest of the text.

Thoughts? JHCC (talk) 15:26, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

In other words, move the contrast to the colloquial usage up to the bottom of the lead, and otherwise leave completely as is. We do not need a full "disclaimer" we just need to set up the two definitions at the top. Prior attempts to craft a "disclaimer" have really been strong POV-pushing trying to separate out the religion you and Codex believe in and separating it out from the rest. No disclaimer is needed if the definitions are where people can't miss them. DreamGuy 14:46, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Assuming that both definitions are sufficiently clear, this should be fine. JHCC (talk) 14:50, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Excellent. Unprotecting. - Haukur 14:51, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

"Prior attempts to craft a "disclaimer" have really been strong POV-pushing trying to separate out the religion you and Codex believe in and separating it out from the rest." This hardly seems like promising language if a cease-fire is to be maintained. Your own pov is crystal clear and far from moderate, yet you define it as the standard of neutrality that must be adhered to, when its a pov. May I remind that the edit warring was provoked, because out of all the possible examples for an "eschatological myth", you chose to insist that the Book of Revelation in the New Testament was the only possible example of what "simply is" a myth, without explaining how it is one or in what sense it can be called one. You simply will not allow any dispute or discussion as to whether or not prophecy qualifies as "mythology", or acknowledge that there are significant denominations that do indeed dispute that "prophecy" is "mythology" in any sense. You would not even allow it to read "is considered" a myth. Only that is just "is" a myth. You had the article locked in this state to prevent this reference from being altered or deleted. I have not asked for any special treatment for any religion. But it seems when there are more neutral examples to be chosen that aren't canonical to anyone, you are the one who demands that Revelation be given the "special treatment". ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 15:32, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Grow Up

This argument is pathetic. Just write the page and get on with your lives. (usigned, but comment by User:61.72.76.213, the only edit it ever made on Wikipedia)

I'm inclined to agree. Would anyone mind if I just unprotect the page and we get things moving again? This argument on what exactly should and should not be at myth is getting a bit esoteric and shouldn't completely stop work over here. - Haukur 09:50, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Go for it. JHCC (talk) 14:41, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I am frankly worried about unlocking it, simply because both JHCC and Codex have specifically already edit warred on the new myth article to add content explicitly discussed here previously as totally inappropriate and violated the agreements we made on this talk page. The fact that JHCC above is back to talking about some "disclaimer" even though previous discussion clearly dismissed that idea as overkill and subtle POV-pushing is also very troubling. It's like this whole lock and discuss thing never happened, because he is suggesting the EXACT SAME THING he was trying to do that led to the locking of the page. If this page gets unlocked I anticipate (based upon prior and recent activity), that they will again use the opportunity to start doing whatever it is they want to do despite the discussion here and clear consensus already established. They both need to agree to follow consensus and not play cowboy hoping to win by sheer force of will over all the comments placed here.

On the other hand, those two are unlikely to ever change their minds or edit responsibly, and this can't stay locked forever... DreamGuy 15:01, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Here's a nifty idea: instead of speculating on my motives and possible future actions, why not assume good faith and discuss individual edits and proposals on their own merits? You may not have noticed that I agreed with your statement above: "We do not need a full "disclaimer" we just need to set up the two definitions at the top." How's that for willingness to compromise? JHCC (talk) 15:09, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

It's not really all that speculative to assume that the way you are CURRENTLY edit warring and inserting info we agreed not to put on myth is the way you'd act on this article. If you couldn;t be trusted to follow the consensus and extensive discussion we had on that, how can someone even giving you the benefit of the doubt supposed to assume you'd do any different here, especially when you had just brought up something that was overwhelmingly rejected as an idea for the article when it was unlocked. DreamGuy 15:23, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

"inserting info we agreed not to put on myth"? If you are referring to my suggestion that myth include more information on the religous sense of "myth" (i.e., "myth = something true"), then show me where "we" agreed not to insert that info. Your claim that this was "against the consensus" was already refuted at Talk:Myth#Senses of "myth". The only other info that I added was undisputed disambiguation links, none of which were challenged by you or anyone else. I did remove some disputed language (and was supported in so doing by another editor); my response to your disagreement with this action remains unanswered. JHCC (talk) 15:56, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, it can't stay locked forever, that's the important point. If it degenerates into a mindless revert war we can protect it again. But I hope we/you can work something out. - Haukur 15:13, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

While I sort of left this discussion having been scared off by very lengthy proposals that I was a little too lazy to read, I must point out that the article already had pointed out the different definition of the word "myth" long before this dispute started. It was in fact started over Codex trying to enforce Christian POV by removing a valid reference in the article, and then trying to "compromise" by including what was blatantly meant to be a "Wikipedia would like to apologise for...". It still does specify the different definitions in the first section. elvenscout742 15:40, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Etymology

The current introduction has the following for the Greek derivation:

(from the Greek μυϑολογία mythología, from μυϑολογειν mythologein to relate myths, from μυϑος mythos, meaning a narrative, and λογος logos, meaning speech or argument)

While this is all quite correct, I wonder if it might not be improved. Most dictionaries that I have seen note that "mythology" came into English by way of the French Mythologie; we may or may not want to include this fact. Also, the Greek μυϑολογία means "romance", "fiction", "legend", or "storytelling" [1]. (See also the LSJ entry for μυϑολογειν, which has some more details.) I'd suggest:

(from the Greek μυϑολογία mythología, storytelling[2]; from μυϑος mythos, a narrative, and λογος logos, speech or argument)

and leave it at that. JHCC (talk) 15:42, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the Greek word mythos probably does mean "romance" or "to be remembered" more than story. Because the Greek word for story is actually "istoria" which gives us the term "history." The word for legend in Greek is "thrillos," as in a thrilling adventure. The term "logos" sometime can mean word but is generally used philosophically to mean "reason" or logic. "My logos" is offered as a word of honour or a promise. Because "word" in Greek is actually "lexis," as in lexicon. Fkapnist (talk) 09:29, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Sourced, referenced, cited Etymology (removed from article)

Greek μυθολογια "legendary lore" is derived from μυθος "speech, thought, story, myth", itself of unknown origin. English mythology is in use since the 15th century, in the meaning "an exposition of myths". The current meaning of "body of myths" itself dates to 1781 (OED). The adjective mythical dates to 1678; English use of myth is later, first attested in 1830, in its original English meaning of "untrue story":

"These two stories are very good illustrations of the origin of myths, by means of which, even the most natural sentiment is traced to its cause in the circumstances of fabulous history." Westminster Review 12:44 (1830)

--ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 21:35, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Supernatural

I'm also wondering about the universality of the supernatural element. In particular, examples given at Founding myth and National myth are exclusively secular, with no supernatural content at all. Should the definition be qualified to "that often use the supernatural"? JHCC (talk) 16:03, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

There has been good discussion of this at Talk:Myth#Definition, where DreamGuy pointed out that such a story that does not include the supernatural is technically a legend. The distinction between the academic senses of "myth" and "legend" is important, and not currently well stated. The best we've got at the moment is "Many legends and narratives passed down orally from generation to generation have mythic content" from the Definition section and "Myths are not the same as [...] legends [...], but sloppy usage has blurred the distinctions in many people's minds" from the Related concepts section. Neither of these even suggests the important distinction that DreamGuy made at Talk:Myth#Definition. Perhaps we could include a note to this effect in the Definition section. JHCC (talk) 21:47, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I was bold and added the sentence :"Stories which contain similar features, such as heroes, but do not include a supernatural element are legends." to the first paragraph. Modify freely for clarity, accuracy and flow. KillerChihuahua^?!? 22:01, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

You guys need to slow down... When I said not involving supernatural is a legend, that did not mean that all legends do not contain supernatural, just that what we were talking about would be a legend if the supernatural were totally removed. For example, if I say that a firetruck without hoses and ladders is a truck, I am not saying all trucks lack hoses and ladders. Some of these definitions overlap a little i some parts. Hercules can be both a legend and a myth. The legend of St. George has supernatural elements. DreamGuy 23:33, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Could you clarify the distinction between "myth" and "legend", then? Your last comment seems to imply "myth – supernatural = legend"? Academically speaking, then, are all myths legends or are there myths that are not legends? The article says that there is a distinction, but doesn't say what the distinction is — if the presence of the supernatural is not the distinguishing feature, what is? JHCC (talk) 15:32, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Myth = definition we've give a billion times here already. Legend = something like "tales of heroes or other larger than life people or happenings with some sort of semi-historical tie". Note that that does not rule out supernaturalism. There can be a lot of overlap. Many legends fall within the blanket of mythology, as they can have spiritual/supernatural signficance. Many legends are outside of it. Many myths are outside of the realm of legends as they are kind of above the world and historicity (but could still be considered to be true). Legends are typically a bit father along than the "beginnings". If it has a deity in in it's usually too far along to be just a legend though. But if you had something that was a story with significance to the culture and believe to be true but lacked supernaturalism completely, it'd almost have to default as a legend, which is what my first mention that confused you was all about, not giving a full definition of legend. DreamGuy 18:25, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

In other words, two sets which intersect, but neither of which includes the other. JHCC (talk) 18:36, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

(REDUCE)

DreamGuy, would you be willing to frame this in such a way that we can incorporate it into the Mythology#Related concepts section? This is some good stuff and should be included in the article. Perhaps you would be willing to do the same for some of the other Related concepts as well? Thanks. JHCC (talk) 20:22, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

A myth and a legend differ in that the legend usually involves a strong element of danger - the Greek word here is "thrillos" implying a thrilling adventure. The labours of Hercules are some examples, but Hercules' quest for immortality is more of a myth, which can be an erotic tale etc., without any sense of danger involved. The supernatural element is found in almost everything written and conducted by the ancients. Even lighting the hearth or bathing. Almost no way out of it, really. Fkapnist (talk) 09:43, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Academic mythology

Accidentally hit enter while typing edit comment... Academic mythology is a redundant term. Mythology studies myths per the academic definition. There is no non-academic mythology. It'd be like a non-academic biology. DreamGuy 23:33, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

What you're ignoring is that "academic mythology" has shifted its focus in only very recent years, expanding iytself as a field to cover modern religions. This can be easily demonstrated by picking up any Encyclopedia from the 20th Century and looking up "Mythology". Chances are, it will only talk about Greek and Norse mythology, and other largely extinct beliefs. Expanding the academic field of "mythology" into the domain of religious texts held sacred today is really a bold, new ground that encyclopedias have not traditionally attempted to cover before now - just so everyone realizes that here. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 23:42, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Recent or no, it is the case. Concur on academic being redundant.

Miracle I would like some clarification on: miracles are supernatural; I believe some myths include miracles, but as the actions of deities, so unless there is a case of a myth with a miracle and no supernatural element to cause the miracle, then that too is redundant. KillerChihuahua^?!? 23:48, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

It appears you don't even wish for any link to the article miracle to appear, even though this is clearly another example of a "supernatural force" other than deity... ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 23:52, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

A miracle is not a supernatural force. It is the result or effect of a supernatural force. In other words, an incident not a force. I suppose we could add 'demons' if you really must have another word there. KillerChihuahua^?!? 23:58, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

No no no NO, Codex, it's not recent, would you stop with that nonsense, because we've been over this a million times. Maybe you only recently became aware of the fact, but the field of mythology has never been about the definition of myths meaning mere falsehoods, it's always been about narrative stories of the supernatural of a culture and yada yada yada. When someone says "The top ten myths about taxes", mythology has NEVER studied those. Ever. This should be obvious. DreamGuy 00:02, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree with dreamguy here. My interpetation of the OED (second edition) is that the entry for Myth was wrong. The third edition is a correction, not a "recent" reinterpretation of modern usage. In the preface to the third ecition they specifically say that:

"Each entry already published is being comprehensively reviewed in the light of new documentary evidence and modern developments in scholarship, and further entries are being added both to fill gaps in the historical record and to record changes in the language today." [3]

As it stands today the OED has the academic usage as the primary definition. Codex, does this not suggest to you that the historical usage of the academic term predates the common vernacular? If not, why not? The one doubt I may have from such a statement is from the last bit of the preface when they say "and to record changes in the language today". The question is would this involve placing the academic definition from a secondary usage to a primary usage? To me this seems unlikely when the academic usage does not appear to be the same as the common usage. Rather, I would interpret that part of the preface to mean adding negleogisms and new usage. Anyone want to contact OED and find out the real story.? David D. (Talk) 18:10, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

When I added "academic" to "the field of mythology", this was simply to emphasize that this sentence is about mythology as the study of myths rather than mythology as a collection of myths (a definition also included in this article). Now that I think of it, "The academic study of mythology does not use this definition" would be even better. Thoughts? JHCC (talk) 00:23, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Per what I already said to Codex, mythology simply does not apply to the non-academic definition of myth. Those studying myths do not study the falsehoods, and a collection of the colloquial version of "myths" (i.e. false stories) is not referred to as a "mythology" either. "The academic study of mythology does not use this definition" is actually a triple redundancy, or 2 and a half times redundant anyway. Mythology is already "academic", and "study" is already included in the main definition of mythology, although slightly less so in the "collection of" definition. "The field of mythology does not use this definition", as it currently stands in the article, is much better, because it clarifies that it's the field and not the collection without being too repetitive. DreamGuy 17:44, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I'd disagree with "a collection of the colloquial version of 'myths' (i.e. false stories) is not referred to as a 'mythology'"; the COEDCE gives "a set of widely held but exaggerated or fictitious stories or beliefs" as its second definition of "mythology", after "collection" and before "study" [4] (although I quite agree that "mythology" as an academic discipline certainly does not mean the study of false or unfounded notions). Regardless, this is a minor point, and I'm not going to get in an argument about it.

"The field of mythology does not use this definition" is fine, and I'm willing to live with it. I still think that doing more (if not here, then elsewhere) to emphasize the academic focus of this article will improve it. Remember that we are writing for a general audience, not an audience of scholars, and being a little more explicit will save headache and confusion (both theirs and ours) down the road. JHCC (talk) 18:33, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

What about mythography or academic/scholarly mythography? Also, myth is a legitimate sociological term that is applied to all myth systems regardless of the specific religious context. In sociology, the term "myth" isn't used to denote absolute values of truth and falsity, but neutral operative cultural functions. Phyesalis 06:52, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Using the term "myth" to mean a falsehood, is a Greek "slang" word of abusive language to make fun of something or to cause offense. Not recommended. The idea of "academic mythology" can be misleading. I guess it would mean a "scholarly study" of myths, but are there really any "studies" done to be stupid? And it could falsely suggest "a body of myths related to learning" like the wolf teach Romulus and Remus. Not recommended. Fkapnist (talk) 10:01, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Nice to see you joining the conversation. Unless I've missed something, the artcile only mentions myth as a falsehood as one of the definitions, but otherwise goes out of it's way to note that this definition isn't applicable to mythology. It's been a dead issue for some time. Same with "academic". But I think you bring up some good points of criticism down below. Phyesalis (talk) 10:27, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

But would you mind clarifying what you mean by "but are there really any "studies" done to be stupid?" I'm not sure what you're suggesting. Clearly there are lots of current studies concerning mythology, comparative mythology and comparative religion. Phyesalis (talk) 10:33, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi Phyesalis. I was refering to The English suffix "-ology," which means "study." Once you've already called it a "study," or an "-ology" there's really no further need to call it an "academic study," or a "scholarly academic study," etc. It becomes an oxymoron, because any study is the acquisition of knowledge. There isn't a chance someone will mistake it for a "study not for learning." (e.g. faith unfaithful kept him falsely true). Fkapnist (talk) 14:03, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

sorry, Fkapnist, what you are saying still doesn't seem to parse at all. dab (𒁳) 14:29, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Things to be deleted or moved

Since we seem to have agreed that definitions and disclaimers basically belong at the top of the article, the following bit in Mythology#Related concepts needs to be either incorporated higher up, deleted, or moved to myth:

"The term myth is sometimes used pejoratively in reference to common beliefs of a culture or for the beliefs of a religion to imply that the story is both fanciful and fictional. Myth is often used to refer to a commonly held but erroneous belief or a misconception."

This could be put either in the intro (to expand "In common usage, myth means a falsehood" etc) or in the Definition section (which currently only contains the academic definition). I hesitate to delete it entirely, as the "used pejoratively" bit is obviously relevant.

This brings up another issue: if we restrict this article to discussion of the academic senses of "myth" and "mythology" (as seems to be consensus), should we not make that clear in some way? We could change Definition to Academic definition or change "Myths are generally narratives..." to "In academia, myths are generally narratives..." or something like that, to avoid the misunderstanding that the article is making universal statements about all uses of "myth" and "mythology". Thoughts? JHCC (talk) 16:41, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

As already mentioned above, "academic mythology" is a redundant term and unnecessary repetition. This being the Mythology article and not myth, there's no need to clarify that this article is about the academic definition, as that's self-evident.

Regarding the quoted section to be moved or deleted, deleted looks fine to me. No need to say it again and repeat ourselves.DreamGuy 17:34, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I've deleted this section, and added a small note about pejorative usage to myth. JHCC (talk) 19:46, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't entirely agree that it is self-evident that the article is about the academic definition (I do agree that the article assumes said definition, but we need to be clear about the fact that said definition is assumed). In any event, what is the harm in including "In academia, ..." where appropriate (especially at the beginning of the Definition section)? JHCC (talk) 18:16, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I think some movement is in order. IMO, "Religion and mythology" should be dropped down beneath "Formation of Myths". It makes more sense to go from the more general "Definition" to "Classifications" to "Related Concepts" to "Formation" in order to establish what it is we're discussing with which terms before we get into more specfic areas of myth and it's interrelation with things like religion, historicity and RL events, and the ambiguous "Other Theories". As for as the delineation of academic contexts, I agree. I'm not sure that this article is strictly about academic views on myths, I think it should be explicitly addressed. I suggest something about the disciplines of sociology, anthropology and mythography would be useful, maybe a brief blurb in the "Defs" and then more elaboration after "Related Concepts" and before "Religion and mythology" to demarcate the shift in the article's focus from general to specfic contexts. I'm going to look over the Mythography page to see if there aren't some useful solutions over there. Phyesalis 09:11, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Just a heads up, it seems that the Article Ábartach already exists on Wikipedia, it is under the name: Abartach. Justs wanting to know how to remove the old title and replce it with the new (correct) one. --Grich 05:10, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Aetiological myths?

Is the term Aetiological myths being used formally in academia? I was wondering if it would be appropriate to include this term in the types of myth section. For example, "how did the tiger get his stripes"... is that a myth? Well, that's kind of a whimsical example. What about Prometheus, and the introduction of fire to humanity? I'd call that an aetiological myth. Is that the same as an Origin myth? --Torgo 00:31, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the term "Aetiological myths" (causes, origins, reasons) is used by academics. I think this is a useful term that deserves inclusion, also "Cthonic myths" (death/rebirth/underworld), and apotropaic (warding off evil). Any objections? Phyesalis 09:57, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

revert

I don't quite understand how the edit summary

"removing some unnecessary and very unhelpful sections, existing content already explains it much better -- not liking how the definition was settled but the main loser in that conflict is back again"

relates to this edit (what loser?), which I would revert in any case, already for removing the {{fact}} templates, dumping etymological information (which is of utmost importance in any article on a polysemous term), and for reverting to the childish "Myths are not the same as" bulleted list. I have attempted to replace that list by a coherent account of how myths tie in with other genres. An account that may certainly still be improved, but not by reverting to something like

• "Rationalized" explications of myths that are no longer understood
  • This is an approach attributed to Euhemerus
• Narrative drama
• Enriched history
  • Song of Roland

dab (ᛏ) 12:54, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Science myths

I would like to propose a small section on myths in the world of science (such as gum taking 7 years to digest) However, I am quite aware that the type of myths may differ...but still =P --DNA 13:15, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

That's really a kind of urban legend or urban folklore. Coyoty 00:45, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Let's not confuse the word "myth" with yarn. Science yarns: spun threads for knitting or weaving spacesuits! Anecdotes are not the same as myths. Why is that so hard to accept? As I said elsewhere, I'd much rather see a section that describes how myths have influenced science, such as the naming of the planets or the phyla (taxonomic ranks) of biology.Fkapnist (talk) 10:15, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Appropriate Behavior

I don't really care to get involved in yet another histrionic, juvenile playground fight with Dreamguy, but I certainly don't think that my contributions to the Modern section were "massive fuck up" and I hope that some day you will recognize that such comments and behavior are completely unacceptable and embarassing. If you would like to discuss the content of the article I am definetly open to it. Please let me know if there is anything I could do to help create a decent adult relationship. BarkingDoc 04:58, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

The only one acting "histrionic, juvenile" and so forth here is you. If you have a problem with following the WP:NPOV policy (as demonstrated by removing objective statements and replacing them with cheerleading pom pom style advocacy for some author you like), that's something you need to work with. "Massive fuck up" was a rather blunt but completely accurate description of what you did to that section. Now, if YOU would llike to discuss the article, as you claim you would, nothing was stopping you, but it's apparent that you just want to toss off personal attacks and namecalling. Your claims to want to be an adult mean nothing when you are acting worse than a child at the same time. DreamGuy 10:16, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

This article is Dream Guy's private property. About once a month, he routinely reverts 99% of everyone else's contributions and additions, to the last version as he wrote it. I've been obseerving this page for quite some time, and never seen anything quite like it anywhere else on wikipedia. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 05:19, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh, great, this coming from the guy who about once a month puts his false claims about the definition of the word back into the article to try to advance your religious agenda (as well demonstrated in previous comments) despite clear consensus in prior discussion that your version was completely unacceptable and copious references that your statements are totally false. The only problem here is that you can;t get your way and like to try to continue your personal feud instead of realizing that we're here to make an encyclopedia and not to rewrite history so you can try to win an argument. You should count yourself lucky I don't have the time to go undo your POV pushing to all the articles you think you own, because every page I've seen you contribute to has been the same story. DreamGuy 10:16, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

where do we give the full range of meanings ""speech, thought, story, myth" for μυθος? Where do we assert that (unlike many other -logies), μυθολογια is itself attested in Ancient Greek? How is it 'pov' that the word means "legendary lore"? That's straight from a reputable dictionary. How is it pov, or where is it covered that the English word is in use since the 15th century, or since 1781 in the modern meaning? Dates directly taken from the OED? How is it already covered, or how is it biased to say that the English term 'myth' is younger than 'mythology'? I agree we don't need stuff about Star Trek or Scientology here, but why do you keep reverting a perfectly sound discussion of the word's history? If you have other sources contradicting the OED, by all means add them. I don't understand why I even have to point this out to you, an experienced Wikipedian, in such painstaking length, as if you were a passing anonymus. dab (ᛏ) 10:24, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

And I don't understnd why I have to keep explaining to you that the reasons why that info is not only POV-pushing but false (cites that are incorrect, inaccurate, and calculated to distort the true history of the meaning of the word) is ALREADY IN THE TALK PAGE HISTORY and thoroughly discussed over and over and over again. You can't keep ignoring the explanation while at the same time demanding an explanation. DreamGuy 12:13, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

doesn't anybody here work in academia?

I came to this page after stumbling across the myth disambig page. I was shocked at how the subject was beginning to disappear under a side issue of whether myth was truthful or not. strange? so I tried to clarify it without treading on too many toes - I hope it meets with approval.

Anyway. what I really couldn't understand is why there is no myth page itself - when I got here all became clear, there is a dispute...

So for what its worth I would like to offer a possible solution to the problem. As with most disputes of this type it seems to stem from valid positions being over-written by other valid positions. Here I see a lot of justification based on the terms 'academic' and 'academia' as though that somehow lends authority to the subject. Well perhaps it would if the opposed voices here just recognised that mythology isn't an academic discipline in itself. Mythology is studied from several academic perspectives, including the anthropological, literary, psychological and philosophical. not to mention the fields of political science and sociology (which actually justifies the inclusion of non-sacred, text based forms as myth). All that needs to be done here is to define and separate out the various academic claims on the subjects and compare the approaches under headings - not so tricky really, you've already managed to coexist with the definition meaning both 'the telling of' and 'the study of' myth.

Once the page was formed of a definition and headings for the various academic views and findings relating to mythology. It would probably make sense to put the list of myths on a separate page called, strangely enough myths.

So if all you supporters of 'the academic' would care to nail your colours to the mast and own up to the discipline you are supporting we will be half way to getting rid of all this one sided stuff about truth, if you are worried about your subjects golden calves being smashed, cheer up, a seperate heading for your own discipline will surely show the world how wrong everyone else is. and perhaps in the process the original scope of mythology, the poets and storytellers might get a word in sideways too.

DavidP 20:31, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

sounds all very well, do continue editing! dab (ᛏ) 20:39, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

"Mythology is studied from several academic perspectives, including the anthropological, literary, psychological and philosophical. not to mention the fields of political science and sociology (which actually justifies the inclusion of non-sacred, text based forms as myth)."

You can have theories within a discipline without it meaning they are separate disciplines. Most of what you are talking about are outsiders to the field trying to apply their views on the topic. Philosophers, politicians and sociolofist still comment on biology, for example, but that doesn't mean that biology isn't a discipline. And, for the last time, political interpretations of myth does not mean that politics are myths or that there are non-sacred myths. That's like saying there are political animals that demonstrate there are non-animal biolifeforms. It makes no sense at all.

"So if all you supporters of 'the academic' would care to nail your colours to the mast and own up to the discipline you are supporting "

The discipline being supported by the academic information in this article on mythology is the discipline of MYTHOLOGY, which, contrary to your claims, is a field unto itself, though certainly people from other fields try to make comments on it. 19:35, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm with you DavidP. Lets get out a solid skeleton for this page and put some life into it. Right now it's just a dirty hairball. The casual reader gets nothing more out of it but a few confusing snotty footnotes. And the editors argue about camel hairs in their clubhouse every day. It looks like some people will always want to be scornful without allowing interactivity. That's exactly why they're here. I suppose they need to identify with mythology for depth-psychology reasons. Looking for themselves. As for me, yes, I work in academia! I was part of the original team that discovered and photographed the tomb of Philip of Macedonia, father of Alexander the Great! My museum photos and 4X5 slides are in REAL encyclopedias. We worked with professor Andronikus. I'm near another archaelogical dig right now, but I won't say what, because it will really surprise the world! It kinda bugs me when unqualified people jam the doorway and won't let anyone else in. But that's life. Fkapnist (talk) 10:44, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Copied from User talk:KillerChihuahua

Was that just a kneejerk revert on Mythology or what? You blindly reverted everything in that edit, even things that were obviously needed (we don't link to foreign language sites in External links, etc.). You say discuss sweeping changes on talk when all of the changes of any controversy were already discussed on the talk page quite extensively and were only changed back to what was decided there after much discussion. I've been editing logged out a few times here, and I see a lot of editors just blind reverting anything and everything, probably because they can't be bothered to check to see if the changes were good or not and just assume it must be if it's an anon user. Please take some time to check over what you are doing before undoing so many edits at once. 172.164.87.241 17:58, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't have anon bias and never revert without looking.

1. In common usage, myth often means a falsehood -> In common usage, myth means a falsehood — a story which many believe but which is not true. "often" is more accurate. Not everyone is ignorant enough to conflate "myth" with "untrue"
2. Myths are generally narratives -> "generally" deleted. Why? There are myths which are not about "about divine or heroic beings, arranged in a coherent system, passed down traditionally, and linked to the spiritual or religious life of a community, endorsed by rulers or priests." Some are about non-divine and non-heroic figures, some are damn incoherent, and some are not endorsed by rulers or priests.
3. While in common usage of "myth", the word may indicate a fiction, or half-truth (and nearly all dictionaries include this definition), "myth" does not always imply that a story is either objectively false or true, it rather refers to a spiritual, psychological or symbolical notion of truth unrelated to materialist or objectivist notions All deleted - why? This is information you are removing which helps clarify what is myth and what is not.
4. For the purposes of this article, therefore, the word mythology is used to refer to -> The word mythology is used to refer to the study of This one I feel should stay the same becase it adds the caveat that we're not getting into bickering about various other useages, but that now that we've defined it as used here, etc.

I have this page on my watchlist and read the talk page regularly. I see no consensus for these changes. I do see a few comments concerning too much focus on Truth but there is certainly no consensus, and your edits were not specifically discussed there at all. KillerChihuahua^?!? 18:25, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with your revert, KillerChihuahua. dab (ᛏ) 18:47, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

thanks dab, appreciate you weighing in. I would like to note that as the last previous edit to this article talk page was June 7, and none of the above edits were discussed here, I fail to see how the editor is claiming "consensus". I am copying the discussion here for any additional input anyone who edits this article may care to give on the edits made (and subsequently reverted by me.) KillerChihuahua^?!? 18:52, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

The discussion was held PREVIOUS to June 7, hell, for the last two years -- these are all lonstanding debates that have been hashed and rehashed countless times and come to firm conclusions of consensus. 172.144.20.69 19:24, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

-- I have refactored the following, which was inserted into my numbered post, above. Do not modify my posts. KillerChihuahua^?!? 05:40, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

The common usage is falsehood, the academic usage is where it does not necessarily mean untrue. If someone lacks tghe ignorance than they understand the academic, actual, longstanding usage and not the sloppy common usage.

Myths are ALWAYS natrratives. They are always linked to religion. If you think you have a "myth" that is non-divine, non-heroic, etc., what you have is a legend or folktale or some other related but different term. We've covered this a million times here.

All deleted because it is redundant with what was covered above. This is just another way of saying what was already said, but more awkwardly and less accurately.

It's not just for the purposes of this article. It's what the word means. We don't have to bicker about othre meanings, we are giving the meaning, period, full stop.

These were all discussed in EXTREME detail over and over and over again. I went away for a while, I came back, the same errors that have plagued the article for years creeped back in, in some case specifically by editors who know pointblank that they lost out on consensus and do it hoping nobody will notice. 172.144.20.69 19:24, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I disagree, as does dab and now Bunchofgrapes has also reverted your edits with the edit summary KC has made good detailed points about a number of these changes being bad. Stop it with the sweeping reversions. Focus on one thing at a time if you want to move forward. I strongly suggest you pick one of the items above and counter my objections, and attempt to gain consensus for your desired changes. Claiming old consensus is irrelevant. KillerChihuahua^?!? 19:36, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

anon, if you mix 'good' edits with 'bad' ones, you risk getting them all reverted. it is not the job of other people to sift your edits for anything salvageable. If you think that part of your edit was rolled back accidentially, kindly make an edit consisting only of that. It is not even clear what "things" you claim have "firm consensus". this article needs a lot of work an is a long way from stability. Just because it has been quiet for a while doesn't make it any better. I do not even see any factual disagreement here. We all agree on the article scope, the 'academic' meaning of the term, etc.; since everybody fully agrees about the facts, I don't see any reason for your hostility (not that I would see such a reason if you were in factual disagreement, either) dab (ᛏ) 19:58, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

RE these_edits:

First. "Myth" does not necessarily mean false in common usage within the last decade or two, ever since Joseph Campbell, Bill Moyers and others helped give widespread public attention to the "academic" usage of "myth". I suggest a discussion begin (a genuine duscussion with proper sourcing) about the diverse common usage of "myth", including "urban myth" and other variations.

Second. The sentence "Myths are generally narratives about divine or heroic beings, arranged in a coherent system, passed down traditionally, and linked to the spiritual or religious life of a community, endorsed by rulers or priests." The word "generally" may not be perfectly accurate here, but is better than no qualifier at all, as proposed by anon 172.144.20.69. Perhaps after analysing all the various usages of "myth" and categorizing them, as well as defining "mythology", it would be possible to arrive at the appropriate qualifier within the appropriate sphere of commentary about the concept or word "myth".

Third. The sentence " While in common usage of "myth", the word may indicate a fiction, or half-truth (and nearly all dictionaries include this definition), "myth" does not always imply that a story is either objectively false or true, it rather refers to a spiritual, psychological or symbolical notion of truth unrelated to materialist or objectivist notions." This set of observations has some value, and it should have been placed on the talk page for further consideration, even if it were removed.

Fourth. There were other changes too. Mass edits without explanations for each substantive change are looked on with an extra measure of doubt, even if they are made by well-known usernames, but especially when made by users who choose not to get a username to which some reasonable association can be attached by other users of Wikipedia.

Fifth. Please stop attributing motive to other editors actions.

Sixth. Please get the hell off my talk page unless you have something substantive and productive to say there, and place your comments on the relevant page, which in this case is here. ... Kenosis 20:08, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Here we go again! Do me a favor... please look up the word "yarn" in Wikipedia and tell me if you need a lengthy statement to explain to you that yarn in slang usage means anecdote. Better yet, look up the word "spin." Myth is commonly used in Greek slang (for more than the past decade or two) the same way we use spin today in the media. Fkapnist (talk) 11:03, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

cherokee?

why under myth by region is there no cherokee mythology? i mean did someone not think of cherokee or is there nothing to put down?Hicups0002 13:33, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

They left a big hole in the main article, and went after some bread crumbs, Hicups0002. In fact, since this is the landing page for Mythology, it should include links to Babylonian, Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Celtic, Norse, Asian, and YES, North American Indian. Funny, though, they kept Star Wars and Tarzan... How scholarly. I'd be ashamed. Who can really lean anything from this dysfunctional article? Fkapnist (talk) 11:09, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Joseph Campbell inaccurately characterized

Joseph Campbell is a well-respected interdisciplinary scholar, he is qualified to discuss mythography, religion, psychology, history and textual criticism of religious and ficitonal literature, among other things. His contributions to the field include numerous editorial projects, including collections by Maya Deren, Carl Kerenyi, and Carl Jung. He is one of the world's foremost experts on the subject of myth. He was a member of the editorial board for the interdisciplinary Bollingen Foundation, and finished four volumes of Heinrich Zimmer's academic papers. If his work isn't scholarly, I don't know what is. I am going to change the article's mention of him to reflect his expertise and wide spread contributions to the field. Phyesalis 07:21, 9 November 2006 (UTC) (added sig)

Wording and citation in "Definition"

The line "Not every religious narrative is a myth however; unless it is deeply rooted in tradition, it may also be trivial pious anecdote or legend." is problematic at best. I think, at the very least, it needs a citation and have noted it within the article. I also think the wording is far from optimal. First, many discourses acknowledge all religious narratives as myth. Also, the term "pious" is questionable. The issue is and should be addressed under "Related Concepts". I suggest removing the line. Any objections or alternate suggestions? Phyesalis 08:31, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I also removed the words "deeply" and "trivial", as they imply unsubstantiated determinations. Phyesalis 10:03, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

The wording in the line "This broader truth runs deeper than the advent of critical history which may, or may not, exist as in an authoritative written form which becomes "the story" (Preliterate oral traditions may vanish as the written word becomes "the story" and the literate become "the authority")." is unclear. To what does the "This broader truth" refer? As this is the first phrase in the paragraph, I suggest a rewording which explicitly states what is being refered to and avoids use of the phrase "broader truth". It is the first use of the word "truth" in the section and has no correlative antecedent. Phyesalis 10:26, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Primative?

That "primitive" quote is kind of problematic, in the context of the paragraph it imples that Greeks and Romans were primative, along with all other religions, like Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, etc. Can we do something about that? Thanks. Phyesalis 20:15, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

are you talking about the Lucien Lévy-Bruhl quote in definition? I have more of an issue with the use of the "t" word in the sentence preceed (truth.) Let's bury that one with a stake through its heart, shall we? KillerChihuahua^?!? 00:01, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Stakes in hearts...cool..heh-hrh. •Jim62sch• 11:32, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Huh?

I can make neither heads nor tails of this "sentence", hence I removed it. "This broader definition runs deeper than the advent of critical history which may, or may not, exist as in an authoritative written form which becomes "the story"." •Jim62sch• 11:32, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

"take your complaints to talk"

User:Jim62sch completely blind revert a badly needed edit to this article with the edit comment: "revert - dreamguy, take your complaints to talk" -- This is simply nonsense. The things that my edit changed to the article were for problems EXTENSIVELY discussed on these talk pages OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

We do not link to Encyclopedia Mythica, as it is horribly unreliable.

We have a definition of mythology that was thoroughly discussed and backed up by cites, but some people want to change it to whatever nonsense either comes off the top of their heads or to support some religious definitions (as the "Codex" guy and others were continuously doing despite that they did not have consensus to do so.

For the love of god, if a bunch of people new to the article who didn;t bother to read the prior thorough discussions -- or any reliable book on the topic as far as I can see -- feel like they can change it to whatever they want, I certainly have the right to change it back to a better prior version that was hammered out through long discussion here. DreamGuy 03:14, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

DreamGuy, by referring to a "hammered out" version, you seem to be ignoring the {{cleanup}} tag which has been gracing this article for ages, and which does explicitly contain the invitation to drop by and help us out. I do not think there is much factual disagreement here at all, our problem is just finding a lucid exposition of the involved situation. I am now looking to unravel things by introducing a new "Definition" section that deals with word sense exclusively, and is directly informed by the OED. dab (𒁳) 14:31, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment from 71.126.9.70

DAVID SUNG quit vandalizing! some of us have reports to do on mythology by next week!!! im going to go to ask.com or a better search engine that does not have vandalizers! speaking of my report i should get working on that... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.126.9.70 (talk • contribs)

If you have a problem with vandals, then use a previous version of the page by clicking on the history link, and the date of the revision. In addition, you can revert any changes as necessary. --Sigma 7 22:09, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Restructuring?

The article has the "please restructure" message, but as a lay person, I cannot see what needs to be restructured. Restructuring is little discussed on the talk page; the content as a whole is discussed, but there is no consensus. I suggest that the "restructure" tag be replaced with an "expert" tag or something like that. -Pgan002 09:06, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm starting (what might be) a major restructuring of this article, namely to better represent the study the meanings of myths. See User:Ephilei/Mythology for version under construction and the talk page there. --Ephilei 00:32, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

OR

I tagged two paragraphs as OR in the myth nad history section. They seem to be the two major paragraphs, describing all the means and methods for the examination given, but only specific examples are given any citation; this leaves the major paragraphs to read as if they were OR or synthesis shoehorned around the examples. Please fix with citation or a rewrite, thank you. ThuranX 14:29, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Pseudohistory

• Dreamguy, you've reverted the sentence that suggests that "The catastrophic interpretation of myth, forms only a small minority within the field of mythology and often qualifies as pseudohistory" (my emphasisis), and you pointed me to the article on pseudohistory
• As I mentioned in my history comment, I can find no verifiable sources linking: (a) The catastrophic interpretation (b) Velikovsky, with pseudohistory.
• I note that the article on pseudohistory includes Velikovsky (but not the catastrophic interpretation of myth), but again, there is no verifiable source. There should be many sources if these subjects "often" qualifies as pseudohistory.
• Can you supply some decent sources, since the statement reads as if it is an editor's personal point of view? --84.9.191.165 09:34, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Here are two fast and easy:

Skeptic's Dictionary: http://skepdic.com/pseudohs.html

"Examples of pseudohistory include Afrocentrism, creationism, holocaust revisionism and the catastrophism of Immanuel Velikovsky."

AN ANTIDOTE TO VELIKOVSKIAN DELUSIONS by Leroy Ellenberger SKEPTIC Vol. 3 No. 4 1995

at http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/velidelu.html

DreamGuy 22:11, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

And as far as the "many sources" thing goes, how often do you think people even sit around and discuss catastrophism? Historians and scientists dismiss it outright whenever they bother to discuss it at all. The catastrophists are unable to get their work published in mainstream journals on any topic that would overlap with the concept (history, archeoology, astronomy, etc.) so they started their own. If there were any scientists or historians that treated it as anything but pseudoscience and pseudohistory their ideas would be present in mainstread academic journals. In fact it is the very lack of "many sources" showing that that proves it IS considered pseudohistory. DreamGuy 22:20, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

• Bob Carroll himself considers Velikovsky to be pseudohistory, and while many others may agree, I can't find corroborative sources.
• Leroy Ellenberger appears to be referring to the destruction of Atlantis as pseudohistory, not Velikovksy's catastrophism.
• If people do not sit around and discuss Velikovskian catastrophism, then I suspect there are very few sources suggesting it "often qualifies as pseudohistory"
• The article already says it "forms only a small minority", but if we are going to include statements sourced to one or two individuals, then the entire article will fill up with subjective opinions.
• You are also a liberty to drawn the conclusion that "the very lack of 'many sources' [..] proves it IS considered pseudohistory", but again, this is your opinion, and a non sequitur. --84.9.191.165 22:56, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Your idea of what Carroll and Ellenberger are saying are at odds with what those sources actually say, and the point is a ton more sources could also be found to say the same thing, if necessary. But i provided sources and all you did was naysay them and not provide any sort of sources that say the opposite. Therefore you have nothing to complain about.

Stop removing it. You clearly don't understand how things work here and seems like you are trying to push a pro-catastrophism agenda. DreamGuy 01:14, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

• I haven't accused you of pushing an anti-catastrophism agenda, nor judged your understanding; so don't patronized me, nor tell me what to do. Either engage in the discussion, or leave it.
• There are no sources that say that Velikovskian catastrophism is not pseudohistory, just as there are no sources that say that Robert Graves, or Joseph Campbell, are not pseudohistory. The statement in the article is yours, and the onus is on you to provide sources, not for other editors to provide counter-sources. See WP:V "Burden on Evidence"
• I would be grateful if you would point out where in Ellenberger's article he describes Velikovskian catastrophism as pseudohistory. --84.9.191.165 11:04, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, I can see your edit history, so I can see you have a pro-catostrophism agenda. Ellenberger calles it pseudoscience and compares it to the pseudohistory of Atalantis. That clearly shows his intent. But if you'd rather it be switched to pseudoscience to focus on the ridiculous impossible astrony of Velikovsky instead of the ridiculous falso history, that can be done. I've given you the sources you asked for, you have no sources that contradict those sources, at this point you are just ignoring responses to lie and say no response was given so you can revert to your own version. DreamGuy 22:34, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

• Thank you for taking the time to respond. My agenda is irrelevant, as long as my posts conform to policy, that's what should be judged; not any preconceptions. I don't criticize your anti-catastrophism agenda... I'm criticizing specific edits that you have made.
• Firstly, I do not need to provide any contradictory sources. The statement regarding pseudohistory is yours, and the onus is you to provide supporting sources. I will provide sources for any statements that I include, and the onus is on me to do so.
• Secondly, I have not ignored your responses. I have replied to them in good faith, as you can see above. If you feel I have not answered your specific points, then you merely have to request clarification, and I will gladly try and provide it.
• Switching "pseudohistory" to "pseudoscience" is not appropriate. We are writing about mythology which is not considered a scientific subject.
• Ellenberger is saying that one may interpret the Atlantis myth as pseudohistoric, and consequently the "Pleiades myth" may be interpreted in the same way. This is not the same as saying that Velikovskian mytho-catastrophism often qualifies as pseudohistoric.
• I propose two changes. (1) We change the text to read: "The catastrophic interpretation of myth, forms only a small minority within the field of mythology, which some have described as pseudohistory." (2) We provide sources attributing Bob Carroll and Ellenberger. --84.9.191.165 00:07, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

I think going to WP:ANI is a bit excessive, and I'd suggest going to WP:3O instead. DreamGuy, discussion does not mean resolution. I do not see a consensus or agreement of any kind. You did not respond to the latest comments, so it is still being disputed. You shouldn't revert the edits. - Zero1328 _Talk? 09:01, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

• For the record, I commented on DreamGuy's behavior at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. --84.9.191.165 09:24, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that was what I was referring to. Lots of Wikipedia pages have acronyms for easier use, WP:ANI is the shorthand for Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. - Zero1328 _Talk? 10:52, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

DreamGuy, I note that you have reverted my edit for the third time,[5], without commenting on my suggestions above,[6], and contrary to advice.[7]. In addition to your incivility towards me,[8] which notes your intent to "reverted on sight", I felt I had no choice but to make a comment on the Administrators' noticeboard, here --84.9.191.165 13:22, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Religion and mythology

User:DLX recently reverted an edit I made to the "religion and mythology" section. I accidentally reintroduced the reverted material due to an edit conflict. Sorry for the confusion there, DLX. You can revert my edit again if you want to, but before you do, I'd like to ask a few questions.

It's not at all clear to me why the stuff I added was "unsourced, OR" while the stuff that was already in the "religion and mythology" section wasn't. Let me first quote, in full, what was originally in the "religion and mythology" section:

Myth is not intimately connected with religion. Myth in this sense does not imply that a story is either objectively false or true, it rather refers to a spiritual, psychological or symbolical notion of truth unrelated to materialist or objectivist notions. Literalism refers to the attitude of some adherents of modern dominant religions that regards the traditions surrounding the origin and development of their faith as literal historic accounts. Such a position has only become possible with the advent of the critical method that counters mythos with logos. Literalists often object to the classification of their traditions as myths because of the connotations of "falsehood" mentioned above, while the mythologist's classification is not a statement on historical truth or falsehood, but refers to the subjective importance of the theme within the community in question. Thus, one can speak of a Hindu mythology, a Christian mythology, or an Islamic mythology, in which one describes the mythic elements within these faiths, without implying any statement as to the veracity of the faith's tenets or claims about its history.

Now, let me quote, again in full, what I replaced that with:

Significantly, none of the scholarly definitions of "myth" imply that myths are necessarily false. In a scholarly context, the word "myth" may mean "sacred story", "traditional story", or "story about gods", but it does not mean "false story". Therefore, many scholars call the sacred stories of Christianity and Islam "myths" without intending to insult those religions. However, this application of the word "myth" may cause confusion and offense, due to the popular usage of the word.

I can't see how what I put is substantially different from what was already there. (Granted, I afterward added some more info to the "religion and mythology" section, some of which I think I may get hammered for; but that's not what I'm talking about right now.) I can see only two differences between what I put and what was already there:

• What I put is (I think) more clearly phrased.
• I made smaller claims, not bigger claims, than the original passage. (The original passage implies that all myths are meant to express non-literal, metaphorical truth--a questionable claim, to say the least.)
• I included at least some "references", in the sense that my text refers back to other parts of the article, whereas the original passage included no references whatsoever.
• If anything, what I put is less like "original research", because it leaves out that totally unsourced and confusing bit about "logos" and "mythos". (I've heard the "logos vs mythos" argument before, but it's not exactly common knowledge.)

I'm not trying to be billigerent or pick a fight with anyone. However, I can't see what's wrong with my addition to the "religion and mythology" section.

Forgot to sign; sorry. --Phatius McBluff 20:49, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

I think providing an external link that's really linking to another section on the same page is just clumsy. There should be a way to write that so you don't have to do that at all. I don't particularly like some of the changes -- for example there's now a long list of "most important" people in the field, which is surely POV, especially as the source is just one source and not speaking authoritatively for the field (if such a thing were even possible). I also think some of the sections were people decide they want to using myth to mean something other than what other people think is pretty odd too, as the evolution page doesn't just quote random people who decide they want to use evolution to mean something else. That whole beginning section is just too long now. If some people prefer to include religion in a different sense, or argue against the definition, that should be handled separately and with plenty of context. See the NPOV policy on "undue weight" -- merely mentioning minotiry views can give the idea that they are widely accepted and slant people's perception. There must be a better way to handle that. DreamGuy 11:44, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you that linking back to another part of the article is a bit awkward. However, aside from that, don't you think that what I put is an improvement over what was already there? My idea was just to make what I felt to be necessary substantive changes, and then leave the aesthetics to others: if others want to rephrase the section so it doesn't have to link to another part of the article, then they can be my guest.

As for your dissatisfaction with the numerous different definitions of "myth" being used in this article, that's an unfortunate consequence of the actual usage of the term. As pointed out in the "Term" section, there's simply no consensus about the proper use of the word "myth" in a scholarly context. Folklorists, in particular, have their own definition of the word that's no necessary recognized by other scholars. I realize that, outside of the "Term" section, editors have been using the term haphazardly, with inconsistent meanings, throughout the article; and I'm not defending that. I'm just pointing out that the situation is a bit complex. Maybe we could correct the problem by specifying, at the beginning of each section, how the word is being used within that section? --Phatius McBluff 17:52, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Ritual myths vs. cult myths

At the bottom of the "characteristics" section (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythology#Characteristics), the article lists a number of different kinds of myths. Included are "ritual myths" and "cult myths". Could someone please explain to me why these must be listed separately? A cult is "the totality of external religious practice and observance". That includes ritual, doesn't it? Or if we go with this article's definition of cult, as "elaborate festivals that magnify the power of the deity", then cult should be one kind of ritual. Shouldn't cult myths be one kind of ritual myth or vice versa? --Phatius McBluff 23:12, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

I suppose such a classification will be arbitrary no matter what you do, and the items will always overlap. Unless we can cite a notable source with exactly this division, I suggest it will be better to convert this into a less committal prose paragraph mentioning various types and functions of myths. A list of isolated mythemes properly belongs on mytheme anyway. dab (𒁳) 09:42, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

A cult is a system or a sect. A ritual is the prescribed order of a ceremony. For example, water immersion is a ritual. The Catholic system is a cult. In common modern usage, cult has also come to mean a splinter group of unorthodox beliefs. Fkapnist (talk) 12:05, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Myths as depictions of catastrophe

For the not uncommon interpretation, I've created the section on "Cosmic interpretation", and a subsection on the less common catastrophic interpretation, of which I have given a couple of sentences to the older "cometary" catastrophists (there's perhaps a dozen more writers that could be included), and finally qualified the single sentence on the "planetary" catastrophists. --67.136.238.48 02:10, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

And I've removed it. See The Wikipedia Neutral point of View section on undue weight. Catastrophism is a fringe group within the field, unscholarly, not taken seriously, and cannot be given a huge section because it would confuse readers into thinking it is more well accepted than it is. DreamGuy 21:14, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

• DreamGuy, it would have been courteous if you had discussed this first, before making a statement, and removing the material.
• The section was not a huge section, and added just three small paragraphs, and every sentences was thoroughly referenced. Authors such as William Whiston, Ignatius L. Donnelly, W. Comyns Beaumont, Bill Napier, and Mike Baillie are all notable enough to have separate entries in Wikipedia. It seems me that that the "cosmic" field is, or was, taken seriously by some, and under Undue weight, we can indeed name "prominent adherents".
• If you think the section would confuse the reader, then use your skills as an editor, to qualify it, and add sources supporting your point of view, rather than forcing it, and confusing readers into thinking there has been no work in this direction.
• Now we have Hamlet's Mill's back in the Theoretical section. Is there a theoretical school of mythology? Surely it is "Cosmic"? I also note that you mentioned "acceptance". It was not claimed that these views were readily accepted. --84.9.191.165 19:46, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Although DreamGuy has not replied, I've restored the section on "Cosmic interpretations", changed some of the subheads to better reflect the sub-category, and added a new related section on Geomythology which is full peer reviewed (and includes cosmic interpretation), and demonstrates current interest. --84.9.191.165 20:30, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Such a large section gives the topic undue weight. I have reverted and suggest you work an any changes here first. Sophia 21:04, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

• There was only about a couple of sentences on each interpretation: cosmic, cometary, planetary, catastrophic and geomythology, all thoroughly referenced.
• Although larger than catastrophic interpretation, the cosmic interpretation of myth has now been given NO weight, despite the weight of literature from many notables (as mentioned above), and others.
• Neither have you given ANY weight to Geomythology, a now-recognized peer-reviewed and current field of academic research.
• I also don't understand why Hamlet's Mill's is back in the Theoretical section. --84.9.191.165 21:59, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

For future reference, it is absolutely deceptive and bad faith to revert to a disputed version of the article over the long-standing, consensus-approved version just because one editor didn't bother to respond to some anon editor on the talk page. Don't tell me it's not courteous to discuss it on the talk page before removing it when you didn't discuss it on the talk page before tossing it all in there. Pretty much everything you are trying to do in that section is wholly unacceptable by multiple Wikipedia policies. If you would like to try to come up with some addition that fits policies, please make suggestions here, and if you can get a version that is acceptable as following policies by others here, then you can add it. Until then if you try to put anything like that back it will be reverted on sight. DreamGuy 00:13, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

• Accusing me of being "absolutely deceptive and bad faith" is incivil, especially after accusing me of lying.[9]
• I did not just revert to a previous version, I made additional changes in an attempt to improve the text,[10] as did 67.136.238.48 (whom you reverted as well).
• There is no such thing as a "long-standing, consensus-approved version" of an article (except perhaps Featured articles). Editors are encouraged to be bold and can offer edits at any time with discussion. I entered into discussion immediately you made your change
• I asked you some specific questions in my discussion, and for whatever reason you decided not to reply. Not only is this considered bad etiquette, but it is recommended proceedure that "If no reply comes, make the substitutions"[11]
• Reverting my edits "on sight" is not part of the Wikipedia editing process which requires an element of consensus. That requires discussion, not statements.
• All my edits have been in good faith, and extensively references. I note that you have provide no evidence to support your statements. --84.9.191.165 01:09, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Regarding 84.9.191.165 (talk · contribs) ("84.*") and DreamGuy (talk · contribs), lemme see if I understand the problem:

• It seems the argument is over addition of content by 84.* to the page as an issue of Wikipedia:Reliable sources and undue weight.
• Judging by 84.*'s edits, 84.* argues that a mention of the fringe theories should be included or at least reworded from within their respective sections.
• Judging by DreamGuy's reversions, DreamGuy would argue that the fringe theories should not be included or reworded from their present state.
• Therefore: Might I suggest the addition of another section to the article referencing the alternative research; or, even better, I might suggest to 84.* to create a new page on, perhaps Catastrophic mythology or something similar? Let's try not to belittle anyone. If Intelligent design gets its own article, then it would make sense that other minority fringe theories should be heard as well, just so long as they adhere to Wikipedia's list of policies.
• However, it would stand to reason that fringe theories should only receive extremely small mentions on the widely-accepted theories' pages.
• If anyone has any other ideas/suggestions, please share them. Remember, please avoid personal attacks of other editors, assume good faith, and above all Don't be a dick. Cheers. --slakr 01:39, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Just because someone is editing without an account does not mean you should assume bad faith. This appears to be what DreamGuy is doing. If no one is participating in a proposed edit made on the talk page, especially for a week, I would say it is safe to assume that there are no objections. I see DreamGuy as acting fairly uncivil at the moment, as he did not make any objections prior to 84.*'s edits. - Zero1328 _Talk? 01:56, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with slakr and Zero1328. The person seems to have not posted any more offensive or non-agf remarks since his initial ones so I don't think it's a big deal.Wikidudeman ^(talk) 03:23, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

guys, elaborate discussions of policy and courtesy aside, the fact remains that the anon editor has added a bunch of fringe authors to the article, and reverting him was the right thing to do. Ideally, the reverting should be done courteously, but the important point is that the revert is made. This article should mention catastrophism, but any further discussion of this fringy topic should go to the main article. This is covered by WP:FRINGE. dab (𒁳) 08:11, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Outside opinions

I also agree with slakr in that putting a rather large paragraph on the mythology article would be quite the case of undue weight. However, given the amount of sources, it most definitely can qualify for its own article (remember that notability =/= correctness). I would suggest the IP pursue that course. I also agree with the above editors that DreamGuy was a bit too harsh in this case and should definitely apply WP:AGF in the future when dealing with any editor, registered or not. Sasquatch t|c 18:09, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

• Thanks for the input. The criticism was that the catastrophic interpretation of mythology was fringe, on which I agreed. I had then expanded the section to include the cosmic interpretation of myth, which is a much larger interpretation than the catastrophic, and as highlighted by the notable authors included as references.
• Additionally, Geomythology is a recognised and current research area, of which only a couple of sentences was included in order to describe it? --84.9.191.165 20:10, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'd say the catastrophic interpretation of mythology is not as fringe as DreamGuy wants us to think. If we consider the vivid Deluge (Latin diluvium) or Flood myths that appear in numerous records in almost all parts of the world, we do have a strong case for catastrophe mythology. In fact, like Plato's Atlantis, it represents a mainstream and oft-repeated story element, rather than just an obscure fringe. DreamGuy calls it "unscholarly, not taken seriously." But I strongly disagree with that and think I can produce enough manuscripts to prove it. Where is your proof of its insignificance, DreamGuy? Perhaps you've seen some of those rather kitschy websites on "vortex" subjects and it has clouded your Platonic memories? I've seen them too, ugh, but no matter. Catastrophe is a valid point here, I think. Thumbs up. Fkapnist (talk) 09:09, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

what "manuscripts"? What "Platonic memories"?? Fkapnist, Wikipedia operates on the principle of discussing "reliable sources". Of course there are "catastrophic myths" (such as flood myths). That's not the same as the "catastrophic interpretation of mythology" of Catastrophism, which is clearly a fringe subject. dab (𒁳) 14:48, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

What this? What that? Am I to blame if your "Fringe" is becoming mainstream? Reliable Sources: Start with these manuscripts DreamGuy. Google it.This is all new reseach, less than a few years old:

Did Humans And Neanderthals Interbreed? - … for mixing of Neanderthal and modern human populations and "this doesn't add any," said Potts, who was not part of the research team. Did Humans And Neanderthals Interbreed? WASHINGTON, Jan. 15, 2007 (AP)

(Reuters) Could our big brains come from Neanderthals? - … proof that a Neanderthal was the source of the original copy of the D allele. However, our evidence shows that it is one of the best candidates," Lahn said. http://edition.cnn.com/2006/TECH/science/11/08/neanderthals.brains.reut/index.html

Modern Humans, Neanderthals May Have Interbred - … be a little Neanderthal in all of us. That's the conclusion of anthropologists who have re-examined 30000-year-old fossilized bones from a Romanian cave -- bones that … By E.J. Mundell HealthDay ReporterMon Oct 30, 5:03 PM ET

IT LOOKS LIKE Neanderthal had a "culture" that involved ship-building, and song-making (the first myths were sung out loud)...

Neanderthal man floated into Europe, say Spanish researchers - Neanderthal man floated into Europe, say Spanish researchers Giles Tremlett in Madrid Wednesday January 18, 2006 Guardian Spanish investigators believe they may have … Giles Tremlett in Madrid Wednesday January 18, 2006 EducationGuardian.co.uk © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2006

The Singing Neanderthal - … features The Singing Neanderthal Music moves the human body (our feet tap, our bodies sway) and the human heart (our emotions beat in time to a song's pulse). Every … -- Barbara J. King is an anthropologist and author at the College of William and Mary. http://www.bookslut.com/features/2005_10_006832.php

The myth-making catastrophic "fact" you don't want to hear about was the last ice age:

Freeze 'condemned Neanderthals' - … with calendar dates. Neanderthal bones have also been excavated from these sediment units, including a male skull fragment which could potentially be very recent. (BBC) A sharp freeze could have dealt the killer blow that finished off our evolutionary cousins the Neanderthals, according to a new study. Story from BBC NEWS: http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/science/nature/6341987.stm Published: 2007/02/20 23:06:06 GMT

Fkapnist (talk) 10:26, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Myth: Cosmic interpretation

I appreciate the recent discussion, and would welcome discussion from DreamGuy too. I acknowledge that the catastrophic interpretation of myth is a minority subject, and the one sentence we have is sufficient. However, there is also the cosmic interpretation of myth, which is a larger minority subject. I had suggested:

• We add a section on the Cosmic interpretation of myth of which the catastrophic interpretation is a small part, and Hamlet's Mill should also be part (isn't also a comic interpreation?)
• We add mention of the cometary and planetary interpretations (which are different from the catastrophic ones); there are numerous notable authors such as William Whiston, Ignatius L. Donnelly, W. Comyns Beaumont, Victor Clube and Bill Napier, and Mike Baillie are all notable enough to have separate entries in Wikipedia.
• Related is Geomythology which also deserves mentions as an emerging science with a significant academic interest.[12] --84.9.191.165 11:32, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Welcome discussion? The catastrophism end of things has been thoroughly discussed above. DreamGuy 16:13, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

1. You were unwilling, or unable to, answers my earlier questions posted in 13 May 2007.[13]
2. The proposed discussion above was on the cosmic interpretation of myth, and not the catastrophic interpretation, and again it appears that you are unwilling or unable to answer them, or unable to distinguish between the two.
3. But if reverting my text [14] (for the forth time) gets your own way, because you are unable to continue with a discussion, then so be it.
4. I would still welcome discussion with you. Brains beats brawn any time. --84.9.191.165 17:51, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

what is it with all these fruity claims that "myth is 'really' this or that"? Such an approach can only ever yield fringy pseudoscholarship. What do we even mean by "cosmic events/catastrophes"? A catastrophe of order? Sure, we can link geomythology and what not, but leave it at the linking, please. dab (𒁳) 15:28, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

• I'm not sure what you mean by claims that "myth is 'really' this or that". I'm making no such claims, only trying to describe of the views of people like William Whiston, Ignatius L. Donnelly, W. Comyns Beaumont, Bill Napier, Mike Baillie, and others. --84.9.191.165 15:48, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
  • I am aware that the claims aren't your own, and by all means, they should be discussed. Just not on the main mythology article. We may well discuss sensibly how to best present this. of your authors, Whiston may qualify as a bona fide author in the history of Mythography#Myth_theories. Donnelly is a Victorian crackpot. Beaumont is a textbook eccentric. Napier and Baillie seem to be modern pop culture mythographers. You can mention their views in mythography provided that they have been voiced in peer-reviewed publications relevant to the field. If you can document these position in context, it may also become clear what you mean by "cosmic", and if the position has sufficient notability (cranky as it may be), it may warrant its own article. dab (𒁳) 16:29, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

• I agreed with the earlier editors that the catastrophic interpretation of myth is a minority viewpoint, which is why there is only one sentence. But the cosmic interpretation (that myths derive from cosmic events), is a more significant view, but except for the quote from Hamlet's Mill, other authors are completely excluded from the article.
• All the references I provided are from reputable academics and I believe accurately describe the views of Whiston, Donnelly, Beaumont, etc. I would welcome peer-reviewed sources that judge them as you described, as I couldn't find any.
• The notability of the cosmic interpretation of myth is represented by the number of authors who described it, such as William Whiston, Ignatius L. Donnelly, W. Comyns Beaumont, Bill Napier, Mike Baillie, Johann Gottlieb Radlof, Franz Xavier Kugler and others. We don't have to agree with them. --84.9.191.165 17:34, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

indeed -- it appears that by "cosmic interpretation" you mean "comets and stuff". The problem is that cosmos is itself a mythological term, and only secondarily used to refer to "outer space". The question thus arises, whose term is "cosmic interpretation"? You are more than welcome to provide a detailed discussion of these ideas, closely referenced, and I assure you it will find a place on wikipedia, either at mythography, or at a separate, dedicated, article. The burden to establish terminology and its notability lies with you, however. dab (𒁳) 17:51, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL gives us a few hits, but nothing coherent at first glance. I have no doubt the idea is floating around, especially in 19th century literature, but it is your task to establish that this is in any way a coherent hypothesis that has been discussed in academia. If you're going to discuss comets, you are back to catastrophism, and to lunatic stuff like Comets and the swastika motif. Incidentially, it would be nice if you could take the latter article and incorporate it into a larger discussion of "comets in mythology" or what. dab (𒁳) 17:56, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

• We can solve the semantics simply by not using the term "cosmic" (or by qualifying it), even thought it's not used elsewhere in the article. And as I've mentioned previously, the sources I used are by academics (except where referencing the original works). I propose the following paragraph (excluding footnotes):

In their 1969 book, Hamlet's Mill, Giorgio De Santillana and Hertha Von Dechend suggest that myth describes actual "cosmic events",[ref] a view shared by some 19th and 20th century writers who have attributed comets,[refs] and mythical planets [refs] as the origin of myths. More recently, writers such as as Immanuel Velikovsky have suggested that planetary and cometary catastrophes in their interpretations of myth,[refs] but their work finds only rare mention in academic publications, and their consideration is "away from the mainstream academic debate"[ref] --84.9.191.165 18:56, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

• This represents less article text than was present yesterday, and briefly mentions the cometary, planetary, and catastrophist interpretations of myth. And yes, it would make sense to have a separate article on the subject. --84.9.191.165 18:56, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Velikovsky does not belong on this page as this he represents a tiny minority view regarding mythology. See WP:UNDUE. --Velikovsky 13:06, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

The text is the current consensus wording bearing your views in mind. Velikovsky was probably the one of largest best-selling "mythological" author of the 20th century, his book Worlds in Collision "topping the charts for eleven weeks while being in the top ten for twenty-seven straight week", the resulting "Velikovsky affair" continuing for decades, and spawning several magazines and journal. --Iantresman 14:35, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Comic books and graphic novels about mythology are maybe even more popular, but their academic merit is does not warrant inclusion in this article. The relevant policies are WP:RS and WP:UNDUE. Just because something is "popular" doesn't mean it belongs in the article. Since Velikovsky is unreliable having been judged to be unreliable by the academics who study mythology, this perspective does not belong here. No consensus is seen on the talk page, and the advocacy of people who have a conflict of interest such as the person who publishes CDs about catastrophism for commercial sale [15] means that we are right to exclude this. --Velikovsky 18:50, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't think the wording clearly reflects consensus. I think the article is better off without it.--Cúchullain ^t/c 19:45, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

• Velikovsky was not being used as a source, he was mentioned as an example of someone who promoted the catastrophic interpretation of mythology. This fact is supported by many sources.[16] From the comments above, others could also have been used as an example, including William Whiston, Ignatius L. Donnelly, W. Comyns Beaumont, Victor Clube, Bill Napier, Mike Baillie, Johann Gottlieb Radlof, Franz Xaver Kugler and others; As has been noted above, some are notable enough to have their own Wikipedia entry, and a number are academics.
• But I'd be interested to know which "academics who study mythology" have commented Velikovsky? --Iantresman 23:03, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

As I wrote in my above post, the catastrophic interpretation of mythology is not fringe. "If we consider the vivid Deluge (Latin diluvium) or Flood myths that appear in numerous records in almost all parts of the world, we do have a strong case for catastrophe mythology. In fact, like Plato's Atlantis, it represents a mainstream and oft-repeated story element, rather than just an obscure fringe." However, after reading through this entire Talk message board, I am rather sad to find that no one (and I mean no one!) has bothered to quote any source material. The original stuff. The Real McCoy. All I find are various references to Velikovsky, and some other modern writers. You've wandered into sci-fi, Star Wars, and even Tarzan. It appears that many of you read books about myths, but not the myths themselves. Am I the only one who reads in Greek? Seriously, I'd really like to know if anyone has come to grips with source material; Greek, Sanskrit, anything. But not secondary, or third generation examinations. They can get pretty detailed, and revisionist, without revealing the original essense of mythology. Because the academic authors assume the you know the myths already. Yet I percieve that some of you really don't. At least that's what a first-time reader gathers from eyeing the bewildering article you've manage to concoct. No wonder this isn't going anywhere. Is there a "senior editor" to this article? If you need help with Greek please let me know. I have lots of free time, and I do live in the ancient land of Mythology. I was part of the team that discovered the tomb of Philip of Macedonia (father of Alexander the Great). There are some new archaeological surprises in store for the world. Fkapnist (talk) 11:45, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Myths about catastrophes are not at all the same thing as catastrophic interpretations of mythology. Yes, there are lots of cultures with stories about a huge world-spanning flood, for example, but that's not evidence that such things really existed any more than stories about dragons and people who could lift mountains means that really happened either. Catastrophist mythologists are definitely a fringe group, and, frankly, anyone who believes Plato's story of Atlantis was anything more than what he said it was -- fiction -- needs to reread it, whether they claim to be able to read Greek or not. DreamGuy (talk) 17:18, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I see your point DreamGuy, However (as I also posted above) there is new scientific data that needs to be taken into account. Within the last two years, it has been found that Neanderthal man co-existed with Cro Magnon or modern man, and that there may have been interbreeding as well as some cultural exchange. The myth-forming catastrophe in this case would be the last glacial period, or melting of the land ice, which forced Neanderthal into extinction and brought Cro Magnon to the leading position. This catastrophe isn't fringe, its a fact. But you won't find anything written about it by your favorite mythology authors. It's up to new investigators to research it and bring us up to date.

Start with these sources. Google it. This is all new reseach, less than a few years old:

Did Humans And Neanderthals Interbreed? - … for mixing of Neanderthal and modern human populations and "this doesn't add any," said Potts, who was not part of the research team. Did Humans And Neanderthals Interbreed? WASHINGTON, Jan. 15, 2007 (AP)

(Reuters) Could our big brains come from Neanderthals? - … proof that a Neanderthal was the source of the original copy of the D allele. However, our evidence shows that it is one of the best candidates," Lahn said. http://edition.cnn.com/2006/TECH/science/11/08/neanderthals.brains.reut/index.html

Modern Humans, Neanderthals May Have Interbred - … be a little Neanderthal in all of us. That's the conclusion of anthropologists who have re-examined 30000-year-old fossilized bones from a Romanian cave -- bones that … By E.J. Mundell HealthDay ReporterMon Oct 30, 5:03 PM ET

IT LOOKS LIKE Neanderthal had a "culture" that involved ship-building, and song-making (the first myths were sung out loud)...

Neanderthal man floated into Europe, say Spanish researchers - Neanderthal man floated into Europe, say Spanish researchers Giles Tremlett in Madrid Wednesday January 18, 2006 Guardian Spanish investigators believe they may have … Giles Tremlett in Madrid Wednesday January 18, 2006 EducationGuardian.co.uk © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2006

The Singing Neanderthal - … features The Singing Neanderthal Music moves the human body (our feet tap, our bodies sway) and the human heart (our emotions beat in time to a song's pulse). Every … -- Barbara J. King is an anthropologist and author at the College of William and Mary. http://www.bookslut.com/features/2005_10_006832.php

The myth-making catastrophic "fact" you don't want to hear about was the last ice age:

Freeze 'condemned Neanderthals' - … with calendar dates. Neanderthal bones have also been excavated from these sediment units, including a male skull fragment which could potentially be very recent. (BBC) A sharp freeze could have dealt the killer blow that finished off our evolutionary cousins the Neanderthals, according to a new study. Story from BBC NEWS: http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/science/nature/6341987.stm Published: 2007/02/20 23:06:06 GMT

Concerning Plato's Atlantis, you should know that there are two "Pillars of Hercules." One is near Gibraltar, the other is in the Near East Aegean Sea. As for the date of Atlantis, there is an inconsistency between Greek and Egyptian numbers, much in the same way that a billion in the UK is a thousand million, but in the US is a million million. Recent finds suggest that the volcanic island of Santorini may be the Atlantis Plato wrote about.

Fkapnist (talk) 10:37, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Here is another interesting report about catastrophe myths from Discover magazine:

Bruce Masse, an environmental archaeologist at Los Alamos National Laboratory: His hypothesis depends on a major reinterpretation of many different mythologies and raises questions about how frequently major asteroid impacts occur. Masse’s biggest idea is that some 5,000 years ago, a 3-mile-wide ball of rock and ice swung around the sun and smashed into the ocean off the coast of Madagascar. The ensuing cataclysm sent a series of 600-foot-high tsunamis crashing against the world’s coastlines and injected plumes of superheated water vapor and aerosol particulates into the atmosphere. Within hours, the infusion of heat and moisture blasted its way into jet streams and spawned superhurricanes that pummeled the other side of the planet. For about a week, material ejected into the atmosphere plunged the world into darkness. All told, up to 80 percent of the world’s population may have perished, making it the single most lethal event in history. Why, then, don’t we know about it? Masse contends that we do. Almost every culture has a legend about a great flood, and—with a little reading between the lines—many of them mention something like a comet on a collision course with Earth just before the disaster. The Bible describes a deluge for 40 days and 40 nights that created a flood so great that Noah was stuck in his ark for two weeks until the water subsided. In the Gilgamesh Epic, the hero of Mesopotamia saw a pillar of black smoke on the horizon before the sky went dark for a week. Afterward, a cyclone pummeled the Fertile Crescent and caused a massive flood. Myths recounted in indigenous South American cultures also tell of a great flood. [17]

Most of the textbook references cited in this mythology article are at least half a century old. If the biology or chemistry articles in Wikipedia cited textbooks from the 1800s to the 1960s, they would be considered outdated. Why should mythology be any different? Fkapnist —Preceding comment was added at 12:12, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

"in folkloristics"

[18] I think the problem lies not so much with Tolkien as with "in folkloristics". This should perhaps be "in mythography". Tolkien was not a "folklorist" in the sense of a comparative approach to the world's traditional narratives, but he certainly was among the foremost experts on Anglo-Saxon (Old and Middle English) narratives. Together with his views on "mythopoeia" (On Fairy Stories), his opinion on the subject does carry great weight, quite unrelated to his popularity as an author of original works. --dab (𒁳) 08:00, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, Tolkien's doubtlessly an authority on "myth and fairy story" (as he liked to put it). However, the personal opinion of any scholar whatsoever isn't a proper reference for a blanket statement that folklorists see "truth" in myth. I'm fine with keeping the Tolkien quote in the article, but we need a different reference for that "archetypical quality of 'truth'" statement. --Phatius McBluff 21:35, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

can we be reasonable about this? I see a lot of "citation needed" tags gracing perfectly straightforward statements. Asking for citations is good, but some common sense should be involved. Have you looked at truth? The primary meaning of the word is ""faithfulness, fidelity". This obviously isn't about truth in the sense of "factuality", which is a concept that doesn't even enter the equation in a discussion of myth. There is objective truth (sooth), then there is mythological truth, and then there is religious truth, which is really mythological truth with a scripture and a clergy. Understanding these notions of truth is at the very core of getting the concept of "myth". dab (𒁳) 08:46, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

My Oxford Dictionary doesn't find "folkloristics" anywhere. Probably neither will your average reader. By "truth" do you mean story essence and substance, rather than some historical fact? Fkapnist (talk) 08:36, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

see Truth#Etymology. Funny. "My" OED has folkloristics as a matter of course: "The study of folklore; folklore as a discipline or subject of research." dab (𒁳) 14:31, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

What do these passages mean?

1. "In folkloristics, which is concerned with the study of both secular and sacred narratives, a myth also derives some of its power from being more than a simple 'tale', by comprising an archetypical quality of 'truth'."

2. "Myths are often intended to explain the universal and local beginnings ('creation myths' and 'founding myths'), natural phenomena, inexplicable cultural conventions or rituals, and anything else for which no simple explanation presents itself. This broader truth runs deeper than the advent of critical history, and it may or may not exist as in an authoritative written form which becomes 'the story' (preliterate oral traditions may vanish as the written word becomes 'the story' and the literate class becomes 'the authority'). However, as Lucien Lévy-Bruhl puts it, 'The primitive mentality is a condition of the human mind, and not a stage in its historical development.'"

Um ... maybe I'm just stupid, but I have almost no idea what the above passages mean. Could someone please reword them so they make sense? In the first passage, what's "an archetypical quality of 'truth'"? And in the second passage, I can't tell how the different sentences go together to form a coherent argument. --Phatius McBluff 21:43, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

The first passage may mean that myths transmitted universal value systems or ethical and moral guidelines. The second passage I think means that the original oral content of a myth is sometimes lost when committed to writing. Fkapnist (talk) 08:17, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree these passages are garbled. They should be lovingly rephrased. dab (𒁳) 14:32, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Rotundum?

I'm not going to revert the new "Rotundum" section out, as it seems to contain some material that's potentially useful, but it shouldn't be in the article in its current form. At present this section seems to be a collection of random stuff that needs to be integrated in different places in the article. Actually, it's quite possible that Democritus and Epicurus belong at Greek mythology, but not here. Jung probably deserves a section all his own, or needs to be part of a "Psychological interpretations" section. --Akhilleus (talk) 05:42, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Please note that this is the landing page or "main topic" article, and like the trunk of a tree, it should have adequate links with concise descriptions leading to all its related branch articles. Don't assume your reader knows how to find the related subjects unless you describe them within the content of the main page. Fkapnist (talk) 08:27, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

sigh, there isn't even a "Jungian rotundum" article. "Jungian rotundum" doesn't get a single google hit. What is this?. I suggest you write that artile first, see if it survives AfD, then incorporate a reference to it under UFOlogy and UFO religion, and then we can place a brief mention to the whole thing here if you insist. dab (𒁳) 14:39, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Not one Google hit! Then I guess I will have to write the rotundum article after all. It actually has little to do with UFOlogy. The rotundum is the basis of all archetypes, according to Jung. It is merely the perception of a circle or sphere (cosmic egg, etc.), which represents a totality of the self. Fkapnist (talk) 09:42, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Outline and Structure of Page is Weak

I'm afraid the Mythology page is very weak for several reasons. It needs more sections because it doesn't answer two very important questions: 1. What actually were the major myths? Why not a single example? Don't assume that your reader knows. 2. Who were the original story tellers? The editors here don't seem to understand, or care enough to tell us. Hesiod, for example, is not mentioned at all. Don't assume that your reader knows and will look it up elsewhere. Sure, there are many references to scholars like Levi-Strauss or J. R. R. Tolkien, but they weren't the original story tellers of mythology. So who were they? You've heard that the classical myths were sung to music and painted on vases, not annotated with footnotes. But our dear readers won't learn any of that here, I guess. I'm surprised that even Homer is only mentioned once - in the Related Topics section, along with Nazi ideologist Alfred Rosenberg! Come on, are you people serious? Who edited this bedsheet? Mythology constitutes a few thousand years of our precious human history. But the edits here seem to cover (yawn) about half a page full of cut and paste high-sounding academic quotes. Without getting to the real meat of the subject. Don't assume that your readers know anything about mythology. If they did, they sure wouldn't consult you or Wikipedia. Did anyone happen to notice how the myths influenced modern-day science? Why, for example, are the planets named after mythical characters? The editors here don't have time to look it up. And the geographical distribution or map of major myths is also not covered. Try this: Babylonian, Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Celtic, Norse, African, Asian, Native America. See how easy that was? Without these vital links right in the heart of the main article, your naive dear reader is lost and buried, by a bunch of sleepy editors. Do you have a problem with space? Buy a new hard disc. I don't think Wikipedia has any problem giving adequate space to such a major topic. And did you notice the decline of myths and their aftermath? Try Democritus and his buddies. But some of you would rather delete all that stuff and keep the page short and sweet. Oh, that Fifth Grade tradition of cut and paste! Smarty quotes; the very stuff of plagiarism. I was the publisher and editor of a big city daily newspaper, and I can tell you without hesitation that the current Mythology article would make an excellent bedsheet to cradle any reader's unfamiliar nightmares. Fkapnist (talk) 07:45, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Fkapnist, I am not sure what you are ranting against. Nobody said this article was great, or finished. It needs work. I certainly wouldn't give it more than a "B". But I am not sure the way forward is inserting random paragraphs on Ufology. dab (𒁳) 14:42, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

"I was the publisher and editor of a big city daily newspaper" -- well, if you were I have no doubt that you'd print all sorts of random rants on UFOs and so forth while complaining about how you think you know more than everyone else. But that's neither here nor there for improving this article. I think you'd learn a lot about the topic if you read the article for content and didn't just assume it sucked because it doesn't say what little you think you know about the topic. There's a lot of good content here. It's not the best it could be, but it's better now that your additions are removed. DreamGuy (talk) 17:12, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

"It's better now that your additions are removed." That's a good one, DreamGuy. But thanks anyway for keeping Jung near the end. Fkapnist (talk) 09:44, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Syncretic Mythology

Syncretic mythology also deserves to be mentioned along with the creation myths and ritual myths. But syncretic myths would probably belong in the "Myth and Religion" section. There are two main schools of thought here: One theory states that most of the western myths evolved, or were copied through time, and can be ultimately traced back to an original set of stories that probably started in ancient Egypt. The myth of Jesus is said to have begun as a primordial solar deity who annually dies and resurrects, such as Osiris, who later became Dionysus, and finally developed into the familiar Christ story. The opposing argument is that the syncretic myths did not actually appear until after the arrival of Christ, and were the retelling of the old Osiris and Dionysus myths based on the new story of Jesus. This theory claims that no evidence exists in antiquity for Osiris, Dionysus, or any other mythical gods ressurecting until after the 2nd and 3rd century AD. When deities of polytheistic society were sacrified, they dwelt either in Hades or the Elysian Fields, but did not return to life on earth. Fkapnist (talk) 13:10, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

you may be looking for Jesus Christ and mythology, or even Jesus myth hypothesis. dab (𒁳) 14:43, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

If the myth of Dionysus is a syncretic continuation of the Osiris myth, we are not talking only about Jesus Christ. I think syncretic mythology is important as part of the "origin" of all myths. Fkapnist (talk) 09:32, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Further Reading

Hello. I am suggesting the following book as Further Reading on the Mythology page: Vitsaxis, Vassilis. Myth and the Existential Quest. Boston: Somerset Hall Press, 2006. ISBN 0797461009 Disclosure: I am the publisher of this book. To avoid overstepping conflict of interest guidelines, I am bringing this up on this talk page. I believe this book adds to the scholarly discussion of this topic. Vassilis Vitsaxis is a prominent modern Greek philosopher who has written on Ancient Greek, Hindu, Christian and other myths. To make your determination of whether this book is worthy of mention, more info about this book and other books by Vitsaxis is available on Amazon.com. Look up Vitsaxis. I'll avoid further marketing language here. ;) Thank you for your consideration. Summer612 (talk) 18:30, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

thanks for your honesty -- I'll add it for now and we'll see how it's doing. The bibliography (and the article itself) will need to be overhauled at some point, at which time some bibliography may end up being exported to mythography or another related topic. dab (𒁳) 21:51, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Separated intro back into intro and "term" section

When I visited this article just now, I found that the "term" section had been merged with the intro. I felt that this made the intro long and somewhat confusing. For example, suppose that someone is looking for a quick explanation of myth. Such a person would obviously read only the intro in detail, perhaps skimming the rest of the article. Suppose such a person wasn't particularly interested in etymological/historical issues. If he came upon this article with the "term" section merged into the intro, then he would waste time wading through the "term" discussion.

I checked the edit history before separating the intro back into intro and "term" section. However, most of this article's edit history consists of vandalism and subsequent reversions. Thus, I had a hard time finding who exactly had merged the "term" section into the intro, and why he had done so. That being the case, I went ahead with my plan of separating "term" discussion from intro. If someone disagrees with this move, he/she can feel free to bring it up on this talk page. --Phatius McBluff (talk) 01:55, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Imported material from Comparative mythology

A while back, I added a section called "Interpretations of myth" to the Comparative mythology article. I've finally decided that it belongs more in the general Mythology article. Many of the theories mentioned in that section have nothing particularly "comparative" about them, besides the fact that the theorists who came up with them obviously read a lot of different myths. Anyhow, the Comparative mythology article should focus more on specific similarities between different mythologies and interpretations of those similarities. That's what "comparative mythology" is all about. --Phatius McBluff (talk) 06:48, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

the watcher

The watcher is like a dog catcher except a demon catcher if you see him he will not hurt you but it will fill like time stoped but there will be no sound he will take form of a 6 foot white dog. so far thats how much I no.66.139.99.226 (talk) 02:50, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Characteristics of a myth

"Myths are narratives about divine or heroic beings, arranged in a coherent system, passed down traditionally" - what does passed down traditionally mean exactly?--Meieimatai 10:26, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

In the context of the article, I suppose it means that myths have been transmitted (in one form or another) either for a long time or as a constitutive part of a certain culture or other group. For example, the Book of Mormon is a fundamental part of Mormonism, so the stories in the Book of Mormon could be called "traditional" to Mormonism. A better example would be Homer's Iliad: passed down for a long time, and probably originally composed by piecing together songs from oral tradition, that poem is definitely "traditional", which means that the stories [myths] in it have been "passed down traditionally".

I agree that "passed down traditionally" is somewhat confusing and redundant (if it's traditional, then it must have been passed down). Anyway, the whole statement in question isn't completely true, so I just removed it. Not all scholars restrict the label "myth" to stories about gods and heroes. Some scholars (e.g. in religious studies and folkloristics) wouldn't call many hero stories "myths", because those scholars restrict "myth" to sacred stories. Who says that myths must be arranged in a coherent system? Has anyone noticed the 3 contradictory creation myths in Egyptian mythology?

--Phatius McBluff (talk) 19:08, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

The thing about transmission rather than "passing down" is that it significantly depends on the mode and medium, which for most ancient societies was oral, and therefore reliant on the finding of individuals within the society with Eidetic memory.

Besides this, traditions are not normative parts of social practices (marriage, warship, leader determination, etc.), and so are highly subject to change, particularly where the tradition is not transmitted in writing.

Any transmitted cultural knowledge which is a part of systematic codification of social normative practice can not very well be said to be traditional, can it? For example the stories of evolution and development of legal practice associated with the English law.

More importantly, the norms of transmission are also important, such as existence of a group within society professionally dedicated to this transmission, or this being accomplished by popular communication, for example via the oldest members with recollection of the myth--Meieimatai 02:31, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Myth in the Making

An interesting myth in the making is at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Father_Damien Myth Florida (talk) 14:52, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Segal

I don't have access to Segal's "Very Short Introduction", but he is being used for a number of very simplistic and dubious statements. I don't know if Segal is to blame for this, or if he is simply being quoted naively out of context. --dab (𒁳) 08:00, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I assume you're referring to the section on "Interpretation of Myths"? I added that. I realize that some of the statements look rather simplistic (Segal is a relatively "concise" writer). However, I feel that, besides the "Term" section, the "Interpretation" section may currently be the best section in this article. For example, consider the following passage:

Myths are often intended to explain the universal and local beginnings ("creation myths" and "founding myths"), natural phenomena, otherwise inexplicable cultural conventions or rituals, and anything else for which no simple explanation presents itself. This broader truth runs deeper than the advent of critical history, and it may or may not exist as in an authoritative written form which becomes "the story" (preliterate oral traditions may vanish as the written word becomes "the story" and the literate class becomes "the authority"). However, as Lucien Lévy-Bruhl puts it, "The primitive mentality is a condition of the human mind, and not a stage in its historical development." Huh??

The first sentence is certainly true. However, it's completely unsourced. The second sentence could be reworded for clarity and conciseness. (Maybe something like "Myths were passed down before the development of critical history. As a preliterate society develops writing, an 'official' written version of its mythology often eclipses its orally-transmitted myths".) It's also unsourced. It's unclear to me what the Lévy-Bruhl quote means, and how it relates to the rest of the paragraph.

I'm not a professor and not in a position to judge how accurate Segal's claims are. I'll try to check his book again and see if I misrepresented anything he said. However, I stand by my claim that, by Wikipedia's purported standards, the Segal claims (along with the "Term" section) are currently some of the best material here. Remember, on Wikipedia, clarity and verifiability (i.e. having a source) matter more than nuance or (alas) truth. --Phatius McBluff (talk) 14:51, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Undiscussed massive edits to the article

In the last several days there has been a huge number of changes to the article that were not discussed on the talk page and often have no substantive edit comment at all (listing the name of the section tht was changed but not explaining what was edited or why is not a real edit comment) to give any sort of rationale to the changes.

I haven't yet looked at every single change, but the modifications to the modern myths section (completely removing it, which got rid of the very important clarification that fiction and mythology are different) stands out as especially odd.

As far as I know, edit comments are not optional, and using them, and discussing the more major pages on talk, is an essential part of the editing process. DreamGuy (talk) 22:52, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Cite tags

Hi, in copy edits I removed six fact date tags and put a general cite tag for the section "Myths as depictions of historical events", but then realised there are references throughout the section. Please remove tag if extra citations are not required there. Thanks, Julia Rossi (talk) 23:03, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

'Supernatural or dream-like language' versus 'the supernatural'

I'm suggesting that the first sentence be changed from "that a particular culture believes to be true and that often use the supernatural to interpret natural events and to explain the nature of the universe and humanity" to "that a particular culture finds meaningful in explaining the nature of the reality, often using supernatural or dream-like language to interpret natural phenomena". Here's why...

Did ancient peoples truly 'believe' in supernatural entities or did they inevitably and freely use dream-like, unnatural (supposedly 'supernatural') language in the process of personifying or relationalizing natural forces and dynamics? Recent studies in evolutionary psychology and evolutionary neuroscience would suggest the latter. How was the world made? Why do earthquakes, tornados, and other bad things happen? Why must we die? Why do we struggle with inner feelings and impulses that seem to have a life of their own? Why are we so easily addicted and tempted to do things that go against our own interests? Such questions cannot be answered by the powers of human perception alone. Ancient cultures gave so-called supernatural answers to these questions, but those answers were not truly supernatural—they were pre-natural. Prior to advances in technology and scientific ways of testing truth claims, factual answers were simply unavailable. It was not just difficult to have a natural, factual understanding of infection before microscopes brought bacteria into focus; it was impossible. It was similarly impossible to understand the large-scale structure of the universe before telescopes allowed us to see galaxies. If we could do during the day what we do at night, in our dreams, we'd all be having supernatural experiences daily. In any event, I edited the first sentence to try to reflect this more nuanced understanding. MBDowd (talk) 13:35, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

You ask: "Did ancient peoples truly 'believe' in supernatural entities" and the quick answer is "Yes, obviously!" Your claim that the cultures didn't really believe them is certainly against what experts say, not to mention common sense. Many people today still have supernatural explanations for these things, so there's no reason to doubt that ancient ones would also. DreamGuy (talk) 23:15, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

What the?

Some of you may have encountered me in the Noah's Ark debate about the word 'mythology' there. It is because of that debate that I had a look at this article. Quite frankly, the whole article strikes me as an apologia for the minimalist POV pushers who are determined that religion become synonymous with myth. The editors have spent so much energy in trying to 'prove' that mythology does not equate with falsehood that the reader is left bewildered as to what the subject is really about.

It is clear to me that this article has been created/manipulated to justify the inclusion of the word 'mythology' in every religious article on WP. Quite frankly I am disgusted.

(And before anyone accuses me of being a POV pusher, I should point out that I would be equally disgusted by any article that tries to claim 'religion is truth')--FimusTauri (talk) 10:43, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

OK, the above was written in haste and anger, so I thought I should flesh out the rerasons why this article annoyed me with some more specific comments:

Myths are often linked to the spiritual or religious life of a community, and endorsed by rulers or priests.

This is wrong. In ancient Greece, the stories of their gods were told (preached) as truth. It is only since that religion has died out that we have come to view the stories therein as myth. Hence, the following line,

Once this link to the spiritual leadership of society is broken, they often acquire traits that are characteristic of fairy tales.

is patent nonsense too. By this logic, all of the Greek myths, Roman myths, Norse myths, etc etc should now be called fairy tales.

This broader truth runs deeper than the advent of critical history, and it may or may not exist as in an authoritative written form which becomes "the story".

This sentence simply doesn't make sense.

Individual myths or mythemes may be classified in various categories: et seq.

This whole section seems dedicated to classifying sacred texts as myths. There are many religious stories (in the world’s major religions) that would be called either ‘ritual myth’, ‘social myth’ or ‘origin myth’ according to the ‘definitions’ presented here. This is a clear example of someone with an agenda to de-classify all religions into the realm of myth.

New Testament Book of Revelation is an example of a set of eschatological myths.

Rubbish. It is either a re-telling of events that actually occurred (according to ‘mainstream’ thought) or, if it is telling of a future event, it is a prophecy, not a myth.

Comparative mythology

There is no mention of the fact that comparative mythology is used to find an underlying common history, other than a note later in the article about catastrophism, which is a sub-set of this.

Formation of myths

This whole section looks like OR. The only cite has little relevance to the actual subject.

as Frazer puts it, man progresses “from magic through religion [or myth] to science”.

I wpuld like to know who inserted “[or myth]”? which creates the impression that myth and religion are equated.

One way of conceptualizing this process is to view "myths" as lying at the far end of a continuum ranging from a "dispassionate account" to "legendary occurrence" to "mythical status". As an event progresses towards the mythical end of this continuum, what people think, feel and say about the event takes on progressively greater historical significance while the facts become less important. By the time one reaches the mythical end of the spectrum the story has taken on a life of its own and the facts of the original event have become almost irrelevant.

No refs. Looks like pure OR.

This process occurs in part because the events described become detached from their original context and new context is substituted, often through analogy with current or recent events. Some Greek myths originated in Classical times to provide explanations for inexplicable features of local cult practices, to account for the local epithet of one of the Olympian gods, to interpret depictions of half-remembered figures, events, or to account for the deities' attributes or entheogens, even to make sense of ancient icons, much as myths are invented to "explain" heraldic charges, the origins of which has become arcane with the passing of time.

Yet again looks like OR.

There is a repeated emphasis that myth should not be taken to mean falsehood:

• Myths are not the same as fables, legends, folktales, fairy tales, anecdotes or fiction
• In a scholarly context, the word "myth" may mean "sacred story", "traditional story", or "story about gods". Therefore, scholars may speak of "religious mythology" without meaning to insult religion.
• For instance, a scholar may call Abrahamic scriptures "myths" without meaning to insult Judaism, Christianity or Islam.
• Euhemerus was one of the most important pre-modern mythologists. He interpreted myths as accounts of actual historical events, distorted over many retellings
• As discussed above, the status of a story as myth is unrelated to whether it is based on historical events.

This theme is repeated throughout WP to 'justify' using the term 'myth' in association with living religions. I won't re-hash the arguments here; suffice to say that this apparent need to keep repeating this point is self-evident proof that the word should not be used in the context of religion - if it needs explaining, its either wrong or its jargon.--FimusTauri (talk) 11:25, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, but it sounds like you are just going by what you believe "myth" means and not how the academics and experts use the term. As far as your claim that "In ancient Greece, the stories of their gods were told (preached) as truth. It is only since that religion has died out that we have come to view the stories therein as myth." goes, that is simply false. Greeks who believed in their religion called their stories myths. That's where the term came from. As your entire argument is based upon an incorrect belief -- one that I must stress has been discussed many, many, MANY times before -- your complaint is completely without merit. DreamGuy (talk) 23:19, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

I am fully aware of the "expert's" use of the term 'myth'. My main point is that this article and many others on WP use the specious argument that "it's ok to call religion myth because the experts don't mean it as implying falsehood." The argument is specious because it totally ignores the fact that 99% of people reading the article(s) are not 'experts' and the majority of them use the word incorrectly. The Greeks may have used the word 'myth(os)' but they used the term to imply "story telling". The word had a significantly different meaning to them and quite clearly they were telling those stories as sacred truth - far different from how we use the (derived) term nowadays.

That aside, you have totally failed to address the issue of whole sentences that read like OR. You have not addressed the issue of non-sensical sentences or the insertion of "[or myth]". This latter is especially significant.--FimusTauri (talk) 10:55, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Hi FimusTauri. I removed the parenthetical "[or myth]" bit. I was the person who originally added it, and I admit that it reeks of OR. I added it at the time because I thought that it helped to clarify the point being made by Segal (see the discussion of the myth-ritual theory elsewhere in the article); as Segal notes, Frazer intended for his statement to apply to religion in general, including the sacred narratives in pagan religions (which everyone calls "mythology" without flinching).

As for the current argument about religion and the word "mythology", I'm going to stay out of it this time. I've discovered that my input is generally less than helpful in these disputes that pop up once in a while. Anyway, I just thought I'd let you know that I removed that part you found particularly problematic. Peace. --Phatius McBluff (talk) 00:07, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

My recent edit

Just before posting this message, I made a single large-scale edit to the article. If you're reading this message after someone else has made subsequent changes to the article, you can see the result of my edit here. I removed very little of the previous content; mostly I just rearranged it into what I felt was a more logical arrangement. Out-of-place sentences were put in better location (for example, the quote from Tolkien); the sections were put into a better order; and I reworded a couple of passages for clarity. I did remove a few passages, but only those that (1) had long-standing "citation needed" tags, (2) looked dubious, and (3) did not seem to contribute clearly to the article.

Before my edit, there were way too many jargon-laden sentences peppering the article in odd locations. For example, consider the following two passages:

• Middleton argues that, "For Lévi-Strauss, myth is a structured system of signifiers, whose internal networks of relationships are used to 'map' the structure of other sets of relationships; the 'content' is infinitely variable and relatively unimportant."
• Mâche distinguishes between "myth, in the sense of this primary psychic image, with some kind of mytho-logy, or a system of words trying with varying success to ensure a certain coherence between these images.

Unfortunately, I couldn't find an appropriate place for these passages. So I removed them from the article and posted them here. If you can find a logical place to put them, feel free to re-add them. I confess that I simply didn't understand what they were doing in the article — mainly because I didn't know what they mean. We really need to reword passages like these for clarity. When adding stuff to Wikipedia, we should always phrase it in a way that a high-schooler could understand. Also, apart from their polysyllabic verbosity, the above passages (as far as I understood them) didn't fit logically where they were located in the article.

I felt that there was a strong need for more precise and concise categorization in this article. A quote from Levi-Strauss is perfectly appropriate in this article on mythology — but not just anywhere in the article! A section on "Myths as depictions of historical events" (now changed to "The euhemerist theory" in my edit) is certainly welcome in this article, but not as a stand-alone section, separate from the section on "Formation of myths". Isn't the theory that myths depict historical events one example of a theory on the formation of myths? (Thus, I changed it into a sub-section within the section on "Formation of myths".)

Anyhow, if anyone has complaints, suggestions, or comments, I'd be glad to discuss them. I really think this article can be better than it currently is if we become stricter about providing citations, organizing material logically, and (most importantly) writing sentences that contain only clear, simple English prose. Some sections still need a lot of work. I don't see a single citation for the section on the various categories of myth; and the section on euhemerism needs to be shortened and supported with citations. Please help! --Phatius McBluff (talk) 04:25, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I had to make another edit; see the result here. The definition of myths as supernatural stories believed to be true is not universal among scholars; at most, it is the official definition used by folklorists, as the article itself states. So I edited the intro accordingly. --Phatius McBluff (talk) 04:40, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Err, what? So the people in the field in question officially define it that way and you want to define it some other way? That doesn't work. At all. DreamGuy (talk) 19:32, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Hi DreamGuy. I think you misunderstood my post. I meant that the article states that the definition of myth as supernatural, etc. is at most official for folklorists, not for all scholars. I have added some more citations to the article to show this. Classicists (i.e. people who study ancient Greece and Rome professionally) certainly don't accept the folkloristic definition. If they did, then they would have to exclude much of what is usually called "Greek mythology" from the category of myth. Moreover, if we really want to be technical, the definition formerly shown in the intro is not quite the official folkloric definition. For folklorists above all, myths are about the creation of the world--something which was never mentioned in the intro.

Anyway, I don't want to start a fight. I'd like to hear your feedback. Peace, Phatius McBluff (talk) 22:55, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Regarding your edit, this sentence: "In the field of religious studies, myths are generally defined as stories about gods." might be a problem sentence. Many biblical scholars used to restrict myth to polytheistic religions, and not monotheistic religions (we have the Brothers Grimm to thank for that one interestingly enough). However, most scholars no longer impose this restriction, see Robert A. Oden's The Bible Without Theology for instance, where he notes that:

The simple and convenient view that all myths are stories about the gods [in reference to earlier discussions about polytheism] continued to play the lead role in discussions by biblical scholars about myth and the Bible for a surprisingly long period in the twentieth century — surprisingly long since, as we will see, this definition was dismissed as unfair and inadequate by a wide range of scholars outside the area of biblical study. A look at almost any of the most widely used introductions to the Hebrew Bible or the New Testament, or at similarly influential biblical theologies, will show that this remained the case until very recently [he seems to put a limit of 1970].

Now, I don't know if the reference you got that 'gods' definition from was using the plural form innocently (the context actually suggests this, chaps / gods), or if they mean to impose a restriction. Either way, I think we're best off using a statement that talks about things in general, as the above reference does, as opposed to one single author's definition. Cheers, Ben (talk) 23:03, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

You're quite right, Ben Tillman. For non-professionals like me to make a blanket statement about people in religious studies, even with the support of published sources, is unwarranted. When I made that edit, I intended for Segal (who does indeed presume to make a blanket statement about religious studies) to be the primary source for my claim about religious studies, and for the O'Flaherty quote to be just one example. Taking your concern into consideration, I replaced "generally" with "often" and modified the citation slightly. Hope that helps. --Phatius McBluff (talk) 23:26, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

My objection was to the sentence using the word gods. Some readers might read this and think that stories involving only one god can not be labelled a myth, and this would be a valid thought since until the latter half of the twentieth century, this was in fact a common definition of the term. To reflect modern usage, a simple fix to what you have now might be to just say "god or gods", do you think? Cheers, Ben (talk) 23:44, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Oh, I see. Sure, that seems to be a good idea. Segal does mean "god or gods" (he mentions the God of the Hebrew Bible). I'll alter the text accordingly. Note: I will be capitalizing the singular "god", since it's being used as a proper noun for "the single god" in this context; let me know if you find this problematic. --Phatius McBluff (talk) 23:50, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I think the MoS advises not to, unless you're explicitly referring to a particular god. So if we're talking about the Christian god we would say "God blah blah". Cheers, Ben (talk) 00:00, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

I understand. Why don't you reword it as you see fit? I don't think I'll have any particular objection to whatever wording you choose. I would personally suggest "gods or a god", but that might not make clear our point that myths can be about the monotheistic god. --Phatius McBluff (talk) 00:04, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't think the order matters too much, so whatever order you're happy with should be fine. We can always discuss monotheism explicitly if we need to, noting the change in definition in the process. Cheers, Ben (talk) 00:12, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Another confusing sentence

I removed this sentence from the article:

As Roland Barthes affirms, "myth is a word chosen by history. It could not come from the nature of things".

It originally was the last sentence in the opening paragraph of the section on euhemerist theory. I don't understand what it means, and I certainly don't know how it fits into that paragraph. (If anything, it looks like a statement that belongs in the "Term" section.) Instead of simply inserting a quote from Barthes, would someone please either paraphrase that quote in the article in a way that makes its meaning obvious, or provide some exegesis around the quote in order to make its significance clear? Thanks. --Phatius McBluff (talk) 04:28, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Recent edits have been less than helpful...

...at least to overall understanding of the topic. Right now the lead says almost nothing, and seems to be pushing a definition favored by a single author and not how it is used in the field.

What the lead needs to say, is that mythology is: 1) the study of myths (explaining what myths are - sacred stories about supernatural/creation of world/etc. believed to be true by the culture) 2) the alternate definition of mythology being a collection of myths.

That is FUNDAMENTAL to any understanding of the topic at all.

If you want to give alternate definitions of myth (the looser one that encompasses legends and etc., and then mention of the popular usage meaning "false" -- with explanation that obviously mythology is the study of the academic term and not the popular usage), we can go into greater detail in the body of the article. Unfortunately we've had so many changes to this article lately hat it seems to be largely useless in getting the most important information off.

Obviously I can't just revert the whole thing, mainly because of all the other changes that were made that were perfectly fine and also because cleary there's some disagreement, but we need to work on a way we can all agree to it. I don't even care if we have sourced multiple definitions in the lead (assuming we don't give WP:UNDUE weight to a fringe view in the process), but the whole point of the field is that mythology is the study of sacred stories believed to be true. DreamGuy (talk) 18:33, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

We have wiktionary for definitions, and I think the article could do with a bit of trim with this in mind. I mean, is it really necessary to have an entire dictionary entry in this article? Cheers, Ben (talk) 18:44, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

I have a few points to make:

1. Can anyone provide an actual source for the definition that used to be in the intro? For those who don't remember, this was the former definition: "a body of folklore/myths/legends that a particular culture believes to be true and that often use the supernatural to interpret natural events and to explain the nature of the universe and humanity". I know of no published source that defines mythology in quite this way. It can't be the standard folklorists' definition, because (1) for folklorists, "mythology" does not include legends, and (2) the former definition doesn't mention the creation of the world. I can only conclude that, however much "consensus" the former definition may have had, it was not drawn from a verifiable source and, thus, technically counts as OR.

2. I have no particular problem with using the folkloristic definition of myth in the intro (including, of course, the qualification that this definition is official only for folklorists). After all, folklorists are the only scholars who have bothered to formulate an "official" definition, so their unanimous definition has some kind of authority relative to the scattered definitions used by classicists, theologians, etc. However, we must make it absolutely clear in the article that the reader will most likely not find the same definition used if he picks up a random book on mythology. Many stories usually called "myths" even by scholars, such as the stories of Oedipus and Perseus, are not myths according to the folkloristic definition. For example, Joseph Campbell, a well-known (if not particularly well-respected in the academic community) mythologist discusses Arthurian romance in his book Creative Mythology; Arthurian romance is obviously not myth by the folklorists' definition.

3. I agree with Ben that the article is probably too obsessed with definitions. Ordinary people don't look up "mythology" on Wikipedia hoping to find a list of definitions. They're more intersted in learning about the major mythical gods, heroes, and events, and (perhaps) some of the major academic theories about myth. It would be tedious and redundant to list the important mythical characters and events in this article: if people want to learn about that, then they can go to Greek mythology, Norse mythology, etc. However, I think this article should focus more on summarizing a wide variety of academic theories.

4. DreamGuy complains that the article now "seems to be pushing a definition favored by a single author". I assume he's talking about Robert Segal. I admit that I have used Segal quite a bit in my edits. However, there's a reason for that. Segal's Myth: A Very Short Introduction (published by Oxford University Press!) is the only book I know of that actually provides what I think this article should provide: a concise survey of the major academic approaches to studying myths. Segal does not use the folklorists' definition, for not all scholars of myth are folklorists. He does not use the definition favored in religious studies, for not all scholars of myth are professors in religious studies departments. He uses a definition broad enough to encompass everything that a layman might think of when he hears the word "myth". I think this article should do so as well, at least until we figure out what to do with the folklorists' definition.

Sorry this ran so long. I'm honestly not trying to pick a fight with anyone. But, in my opinion, this article was unacceptable in the condition I found it in before I made those edits. Let's try to move forward, not backward. Peace. --Phatius McBluff (talk) 00:52, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Another thing. DreamGuy, I just read the post you made on Dbachmann's talk page (I was about to post something there myself to ask him to come and add his input). I'm sorry if you feel that I've demonstrated a willingness "to revert to [my] version when modifications are made". Like I said, I'm not looking for a fight. In fact, I left Wikipedia for a long time (until a few days ago) because I disliked the confrontational attitude I always found on the talk pages.

As for the "revert" that you mention, I changed the intro back to my favored version only because I thought I had gathered new quotes and citations (now located throughout the article) that would make it obvious that the intro needed to be changed. At this point, I can only say this: I promise that I will not throw a fit if you revert to your favored version of the intro (although I may continue to calmly raise some objections here). I am frankly too tired from fighting other Wikipedia battles to fight one here. If I make any mnore substantial edits to this article, I think that I will henceforth devote my energies to doing what I think is most important: adding more academic theories to the article. DreamGuy, Ben, dab, reword the intro as you see fit. Peace. --Phatius McBluff (talk) 01:16, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Comments sought

I'd like to request comments from editors of this page about a piece of policy that is likely to effect it. Please see the discussion here. Ben (talk) 08:34, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Defining myth

This article is in trouble definition-wise. In the lead, it defines mythology as the "body of folklore/myths/legends that a particular culture believes to be true and that often use the supernatural to interpret natural events and to explain the nature of the universe and humanity". Where is the citation for this definition? I know of no academic source that defines mythology in quite this way. As an unsourced assertion, it is fair game for deletion.

It seems that the favored definition of "myth" in this article is the folkloristic definition ("a sacred narrative explaining how the world and humankind came to be in their present form"). I say this because most of the other definitions I added (namely ones from classicists and people in religious studies) were removed. I have no problem with this in principle, because we need to establish some kind of standard definition of "mythology" for use in other WP articles (see the discussion that Ben Tillman mentions above). However, if we are going to favor the folkloristic definition, then we should use it in the lead!!! The lead does not use anything remotely similar to the folkloristic definition. First of all, folklorists would not define mythology as a body of "folklore/myths/legends" because, for folklorists, "legend" is a separate category from "myth". Secondly, the definition in the lead does not mention sacredness. Thirdly... Need I go on?

I don't understand why we don't use the broadest academic definition ("traditional story") in the lead. This definition is the first definition given by the OED (see the "Term" section of the article). However, since I appear to be getting no support on this point, I will drop it.

But please, let's fix the definition in the lead. --Phatius McBluff (talk) 18:42, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

The definition in the lead has been played with over time so often that I think the current version is one nobody agrees with, as it's the results of fragmented edits by multiple editors over time. We need to favor the academic definition of the people in the field, and for some odd reason we have had a lot of editors strongly opposed to following that. DreamGuy (talk) 19:11, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't think OED definitions are the best basis on which to write an encyclopedia. A better course of action, I think, is to present several different definitions--"traditional story" is probably the only point on which every definition would agree. (Each definition should be sourced, of course.) Classicists and people in religious studies are good people to turn to for definitions, as are cultural anthropologists; folklorists shouldn't have pride of place. --Akhilleus (talk) 19:01, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

This isn't an article about religious studies or anthropologists. We don't let religious and economic sources define biology terms (like, say, evolution, which has had similar complaints in the past over definition), and it's equally ridiculous to give similar WP:UNDUE weight to what people in completely different fields think. DreamGuy (talk) 19:11, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

"The field" includes classics, religious studies, and anthropology. Or do you think that Jean-Pierre Vernant and Claude Levi-Strauss weren't studying mythology? The first was a classicist, the second an anthropologist, and both are fairly notable figures in the study of mythology. --Akhilleus (talk) 19:23, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

You're both partly right. DreamGuy, I don't understand why you consider folkloristics to be "the field" that studies mythology. Folklorists certainly don't think of themselves as having any kind of monopoly on mythology. They recognize that classicists and anthopologists are just as immersed in myth as they are. In fact, the folklorist Alan Dundes writes, "Among scholars interested in myth, no group has written more on the subject than classicists" (Sacred Narrative, Berkeley, University of California Press, 1984, p. 53). However, I do think that the folkloristic definition is somewhat more "official" than the scattered definitions offered by other scholars: unlike classicists, anthropologists, and historians of religion, folklorists have at least bothered to formulate a standard definition that is recognized by almost all people in their field. As the most standardized definition of "myth", I think that the folkloristic definition may deserve to be prominently mentioned.

Akhilleus, you're right that we can't give folklorists some kind of special authority. However, that still leaves the problem of what definition to put in the lead. We can't turn the lead into a list of definitions. If we were to add such a list at all, it would belong in the "Term" section. Unless we want to use the broadest definition ("traditional story") in the lead, it may make the most sense to use (ironically) the most restrictive definition, e.g. the folkloristic definition. Why? First, the folkloristic definition is the most standardized definition. Second, it excludes both legends and fairy tales; this is nice, because it explains to the average reader why we have separate articles for legend and mythology. --Phatius McBluff (talk) 07:26, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't think we should put a definition in the lead. We can't afford, per WP:UNDUE among other things, to choose one or two definitions, and we can't possibly give them all. Instead, I think we should explain there is no universal definition, describe some common characteristics that these definitions are likely to share, outline some relationships between the concept and other fields (in particular its role within religion) and be quick to link myth and mythology. Of course, there should be a section of the article that goes into depth about definitions. I'd look forward to working with a few people on getting this article up to scratch if you are all keen. At the very least I think it would go a long way in curbing complaint about the term. Ben (talk) 07:45, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Of course we need a definition in the lead -- how else is anyone supposed to know what we're even talking about? And it's not WP:UNDUE weight to use the definition of the people in the academic field in question. The people complaining about the use of the term aren't complaining about the definition used here, they're complaining about the non-academic usage, in which case they may as well be objecting to talking about the science behind evolution based upon some non-scientific definition of the term for all the good it does. Taking the definition out of the lad would jut increase their complaints because people would be more confused about the meaning, not less. DreamGuy (talk) 22:06, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

If the folklorist definition of myth is as standardized as people say, I don't have a problem with using that as "the" definition in the lead. After that definition is given, we can proceed to say that many different definitions are offered in other fields, and perhaps give a sourced statement explaining why there are so many definitions. More detailed coverage of different definitions of myth can then be given in the body of the article. --Akhilleus (talk) 14:37, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't really think there are that many definitions. There's the common usage one (=false), which we of course have to mention, and then there are some people who just are lazy and want to lump all sorts of otherwise distinctive seperate terms under the same heading, but that's about it. But, again, per WP:UNDUE we can't focus too much on the opinions of people outside the field. It's all in the context of the presentation. DreamGuy (talk) 22:06, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Oxford Classical Dictionary, s.v. "mythology": "No universally accepted definition of myth exists, but Walter Burkert's statement that 'myth is a traditional tale with secondary, partial reference to something of collective importance' gives a good idea of the main characteristics of myth."

Then there's Bruce Lincoln, who once said something like mythology is ideology in narrative form. There are plenty of definitions, and the range of what scholars in different fields do with myth is something that this article can usefully cover. --Akhilleus (talk) 01:05, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Given that in many of the arguments on other pages about the word "myth" editors are often told "there's a wikilink, use that to get a definition", I think it is very important that the definition presented here be completely unambiguous. Anybody following that advice (to click the link) will almost certainly expect the lead to tell them exactly what a myth is. Whatever definition is placed there needs to be fully verified. You will also need to be careful because, if "clicking the link" is going to provide the "working definition" then all existing articles with such a link must conform to the definition provided.--FimusTauri (talk) 12:53, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

This is why I don't like the idea of Wikipedia endorsing a particular definition. Although many definitions share traits, the definitions are often dependant on context to some degree. If we favour a particular definition, then it's likely people will argue against using the term in particular articles because Wikipedia's definition doesn't suit, even though reliable sources use the term to describe the topic. Of course, reliable sources trump our mythology article, but it's going to be a point of friction I'd rather avoid. If you can find reliable sources that explain a particular definition of myth is 'the standard' definition, then I don't have a leg to stand on and I'm happy to let that definition play a dominant role here. Ben (talk) 14:05, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

This article definitely should not be used to provide a reductive, standard definition of "myth" that will solve all problems related to the use of "myth" and "mythology" on Wikipedia. Mythology is a complex subject, and this article shouldn't be used to create the impression of an artificial simplicity. --Akhilleus (talk) 14:24, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

This is precisely what I'm worried about happening. I'm not saying it will happen, I'm just asking that we be mindful of the possibility that some people may see it that way. If we can include a definition in the lead, and not give the impression that mythology is reduced to that definition, then I have no objection. Ben (talk) 14:44, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

I have to concur in general with Ben's last comment. It must be made clear what is "usually" meant by the term if we are to link so often. However, I would suggest that the lead also needs to make it clear that other definitions exist (this is consistent with MoS). In articles where a different definition (to the "standardised" lead) is used, it is encumbent upon the editor of that article to clarify which "other" definition is intended.--FimusTauri (talk) 14:57, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

By the same token we should not use this article to add complexity that simply does not exist within the field. OF COURSE specialists in literature or religion or other outside fields might use some other definition. We can note those in a subsection, provided we do not outright agree with their conclusions (as some previous wording on this article did). And, mnost of all, this article should not be used to foster false conflict so that people who are offended by some completely different use of the term "myth" feel justified in being offended when it's used in the academic sense. The recent RfAr provided a wide number of definitions from various sources, and those definitions all fell into a standard basic range. All we need to do now is more adequately source that in the article and we are good to go. DreamGuy (talk) 15:27, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

In case anyone is interested, I've started to work on a draft for a revised version of the Mythology article. I'm trying to address a number of issues in the revision, such as logical organization, conciseness, proper sourcing, and (most importantly for our purposes) definitions, without removing any legitimate info that was in the old article. The draft is still very much in progress, but feel free to look at it and offer comments. It's located at the bottom of my user page. --Phatius McBluff (talk) 20:39, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

This might surprise people since I have a (probably well deserved) reputation as being difficult to work with, but I think the basics I've seen there (changes to the lead, mostly) are perfectly acceptable. I wouldn't object to that working it way over to the main article. I know I've been leaning on the idea of trying to keep any mention of other definitions out of the lead, but introducing them there without going into major detail is a good compromise, and more fair now that I think about it. Guess it was one of those had to see it before being able to fairly comment on it situations. DreamGuy (talk) 20:55, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

That looks like an excellent start, Phatius. --Akhilleus (talk) 00:14, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

I have to agree that it is a good start, Phatius. In particular, I appreciate the way that each definition is tied to the appropriate field. I believe this goes a long way towards dealing with some of my concerns over the use of the term (and I realise that that is not the objective here - I just mention it as a "bonus" as it were).--FimusTauri (talk) 13:29, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

@Phatius: I think (as I've said elsewhere) that we need to disambiguate the colloquial use of the term 'myth' (which implies falseness and or fabrication). maybe add something to the lead to the effect: Myth is commonly used in casual conversation to imply a false or fabricated story, but in scholarly use it is used.... you can site Oden (or I'm sure a number of other scholars) on that point. --Ludwigs2 15:45, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Ludwigs: I just changed the header of the draft to accommodate your suggestion. Let me know what you think. --Phatius McBluff (talk) 01:38, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

yeah, that definitely works better. --Ludwigs2 01:50, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

How about: The term myth is often used colloquially to refer to a false story; .. Much easier to read and to the point. Also, something needs to be done with that giant parenthetical. Cheers, Ben (talk) 01:54, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Ben: Took your suggestion with regard to wording. As for the parenthetical, I decided to simply remove the parentheses, because on second thought it flowed perfectly well as part of the sentence. --Phatius McBluff (talk) 03:17, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Small point, really. In the line "The term "myth" is often used colloquially to refer to a false story; however, it is generally used differently in academia," the 'generally' is open to misinterpretation (by implying that sometimes academia uses the 'false story' definition). Perhaps something along the lines of "Whilst the term "myth" is often used colloquially to refer to a false story, in academic usage there is no assumption as to the veracity of the story." I am sure something less verbose can be found, but I hope you get my drift.--FimusTauri (talk) 10:03, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Fimus, it isn't quite as simple as that. The Christ myth theory (if that is indeed the theory's "official" name) certain seems to use "myth" to imply "false story". Now, in my brief skimming of the Christ myth theory article, I saw no indication that "Christ myth" is the conventional name of the hypothesis. In fact, the name "Christ myth theory" seems to be completely unsourced (as indicated by the "citation needed" tag). However, suffice it to say that the existence of an article entitled Christ myth theory, which questions Christ's historicity, would create confusion when placed alongside a statement in Mythology that academics never use "myth" to imply falsehood.

Ultimately, it's a small point: the Christ myth theory is currently supported only by a very small minority of non-mainstream scholars; and at any rate, our goal should not be to show that no one uses "myth" to mean "false", but simply to show that "myth" has an academically-recognized non-pejorative meaning, and that that's the meaning we're using here. However, it's a point worth noting. --Phatius McBluff (talk) 18:08, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

This is easily dealt with by saying that the academic use of "myth" generally does not refer to truth or falsity. --Akhilleus (talk) 18:43, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Advice taken, Akhilleus. --Phatius McBluff (talk) 20:15, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

i

TfD nomination of Template:Myth box

Template:Myth box has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you.Goldenrowley (talk) 05:34, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Redirected Myth here...

USer:Phatius McBluff mentioned in an edit comment on Myth that it should be redirected to this article, which I always 100% agreed with, so I wa WP:BOLD and did so. We can incorporate smoe of the info that was there over here if it helps. That also makes it just that much more important that we explain terms here clearly.

As far as rationale for the redirect, myth and mythology is a huge overlap, and the other article was basically just a WP:FORK file of this one -- often one where people would change things here or there and the two wouldn't sync up. Also, the only reaon it ever because a separate article over ther in the first place was tha some longstanding POV-pushers opposed to the academic definition entirely wanted to keep them separate, as it helped them make arguments about the use of the term on other articles. As most of those editors are no longer around (I think some of them have been permanently banned for POV-pushing, actually), there was no reason to keep the fork article intact for them.

I am specifically bringing it up here though for any discussion about it.DreamGuy (talk) 18:38, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your boldness! I obviously have no complaint about what you did. But see above for my response to your concerns. --Phatius McBluff (talk) 00:53, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

But you created a tautology. I put in myth, get redirected to mythology, which is defined as the study of myths, but I can't find out what myths are.... there should be a short article called mythology that says the study of myths, and this big article should be about myths. 74.68.152.245 (talk) 16:07, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

It explains what myths are in this article starting with the first sentence: "stories that a particular culture believes to be true and that use the supernatural to interpret natural events and to explain the nature of the universe and humanity" DreamGuy (talk) 16:19, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Whilst I do not disagree with DreamGuy, I do wonder if it would be better to rename this article "myth" and have the redirect at "mythology"? My rationale is that mythology is simply the study of what this article is actually about.--FimusTauri (talk) 18:26, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

I see nothing wrong with Fimus's suggestion, and I would be moderately supportive of it if things came down to a debate. What do others think? --Phatius McBluff (talk) 01:25, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

A note about transient wierdness

A few minutes ago I discovered that earlier this day I had made this edit to this page. I was quite surprised, since I don't remember even reading this article, let alone making the edit. The only thing I could think, after several minutes of pondering the matter, was that while I was reading a Wikipedia article my 14-month old daughter had decided to "help" me by banging on the keyboard. (I had thought the only thing she had done was download a copy of "index.php" from somewhere on Wikipedia.) Anyway, I apologize for the inadvertent removal of FimusTauri's comments & hope this did not negatively affect the conversation. -- llywrch (talk) 04:20, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

My draft

As some of you may know, I started a draft for a revised version of this article on my user page (sections 5-12). A few people have commented on it approvingly here. I was originally planning to compose a complete replacement for the current article on my user page, but I've fallen victim to inertia since then. At this point, I feel that the best course of action would be to work with what I already have. Please check my user page and let me know what you think of my draft on this talk page. If I do not receive any complaints, I will begin replacing the appropriate sections of this article with sections from my draft. --Phatius McBluff (talk) 01:35, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

By the way, the existing sections of the draft are meant to collectively replace the lead and sections 1-5 of the current article. It looks like sections 6 and 7 can stay pretty much as they are. --Phatius McBluff (talk) 01:45, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

No one has raised any complaints about my proposal. So I have gone ahead and replaced the relevant sections of the article with the draft from my user page. --Phatius McBluff (talk) 17:22, 30 April 2009 (UTC)