Talk:Music of Ireland/Archive 1

Archive 1

Comments

Images Have been added and this is nominated as a good article again.

What is popularly presented and marketed as "Irish traditional music "has in fact nothing specifically to do with Ireland or the Celts at all. Its origins go back merely to the 1400s (by which time Celtic culture had vitually broken up )and when the last of the Crusaders brought back from Palestine and other Middle eastern lands Arab music instruments and dances.Arab music also spread from Moorish Spain at the same time. The fact that this music "stayed" with the various remains of Celtic tribes was due to these areas-Western Ireland Scotland etc- being difficult to get to ,inhospitable and relatively primitive. However in some cases a tradition was strong enough to survive through to today even in areas of relative "prosperity" an example being Englands "Morris Dancers" who perform unaltered a Arab/Berber Moorish dance found throughout Arab North Africa By the end of the nineteenth century "Irish traditional music" was played only by Irish gypsies-no Irish Catholic would have allowed such music within earshot and would have driven its practitioners away with a stick. It is interesting that such music finds no place in any Irish literature-there is no reference to it in Joyce -where references in Ulysses to Italian /German opera abound and where everyone in Dublin from street boys and barmaids to the old crippled sailor seem to be singing British music hall ballads- This music only really began to flourish when it was resurected following the creation of the Republic of Ireland in 1921 , removed from the gypsies and installed as part of Irelands new culture. That is not quite all however... When investigating historical origins one never knows where one will end up.... Some years ago in Beijing I visited a traditional Chinese Opera and sat on wooden benches in a circle in a kind of shed to see two or three players-a doll baby was involved perform...To my amazement the endless three or four note up -down music was identical to Irish folk music with a difference in the rythym only-it was played on three instruments a fiddle tambourine and one string bass or something-(Warning:I suspect such true examples of traditional Chinese music are getting very rare in todays China) It is of course reasonable for nations that achieve independence to want to create a "pure" cultural heritage unique to themselves but in the case of European "folk music" that is really not possible. In real terms Irish folk music is little older than the radio and gramophone record. There is an interesting example of the difficulty of defining the national identity of folk music that many people may have come across.This concerns the haunting unaccompanied "lament " that a woman sings over the opening credit titles of the film "The English Patient" The screen shows views of desert sand and most people probably think the song is Arab-but it could be a typically Irish lament-in fact it is a Hungarian folk song! Palestine-Hungary -Ireland-each separated by a thousand miles yet linked by folk music!! Note :This contribution should really be inserted at the beginning of the article-if you want the article to have any kind of real relevance-though I doubt if that, sadly will happen JP End.

Ok, I don't know when much of the above was added, as I didn't read it when I first started following this article, but it seems to have a rather twisted perspective on the music and some of it is frankly plainly wrong. The music was never limited to the Travellers (or Tinkers if you prefer the term my Dad and Mom use.. in any case, they aren't gypsies). Certainly elements of the Irish Diaspora were still playing and collecting the music at the end of the 19th century as can be seen by the O'Neill Music collections from the late 19th century. Further their are musicians in their 70s and 80s today who learned the music from their parents and grandparents. It seems highly unlikely that they would have learned the music from their parents in the 30s if the music barely existed before the 20s. Chris Droney, a famous clare concertina player, has talked about his grandfather playing the music and his grandfater died in the 1920s! (he was I believe 98 years old)

Further it would I think be remarkable, had Irish Music been at best an all but dead form prior to the 1920s, for there to be so many regional (and indeed sub regional) dialects in the music. Counties Sligo, Clare, Galways and Kerry (as well as others) all have distinct variations in the music is played. Had the Irish Music been revived purely for nationalistic goals in the 1920s, it seems like a single style would have been choosen as was done for the attempts to turn Ireland back into a Gaelic speaking country.

The references to Joyce is particularly irrelevant, commenting on what he writes about Dublin at the turn of the century is hardly relevant since Dublin was never considered a center of Irish Music and was far more under the influence of the English than Western Ireland. I bet you would have been hard pressed to find Old Time music in New York in the 1920s, it doesn't mean that Old Time music didn't exist.

Similarities with other music traditions does not necessarily imply a link between the two traditions. Most folk music is simple structurally and so it is likely that similar structures could evolve repeatedly over the years. Certainly there was and remains alot of cross pollination between various music traditions... Tunes are borrowed from other traditions, new instruments, even new elements of music (for example the increasing use of Rhytem elements in Irish Music).

Finally of course there is this notion that if Traditional Music only goes back 600 years that it is somehow not traditional! Very few musical traditions can claim an ancestory that old. Bill McHale 15:24, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

After creating this article, I discovered the following at Irish traditional music. I don't think there's anything there that isn't covered here, but I am reproducing it for posterity. Tuf-Kat 19:51, Nov 28, 2003 (UTC)

Irish traditional music is the traditional or folk music of the Irish people as well as of the Irish diaspora. Irish traditional music as it is known today is the result of a centuries-old tradition of melodically-rich dance music and song. It was formerly played without harmonic accompaniment such as guitar and usually learned "by ear" rather than from written music. Irish dance music is typically lively, and Irish songs are often highly ornamented and complex. This music is usefully contrasted with the Irish pub ballad tradition (which has made, for example, the song "Whiskey in the Jar" famous) and the modern "folk" tradition, as well as what goes under the name "Celtic music."

While once mostly home-made ("kitchen music") by non-professionals for their own entertainment and that of their neighbors and friends, now Irish music can be heard at sessions (informal gatherings of musicians, often in pubs) and in concert halls, not only in Ireland and countries with large Irish immigrant populations, but indeed in many countries around the globe. It also can be heard on recordings of bands such as The Bothy Band, Altan, and The Chieftains, instrumentalists such as Michael Coleman (fiddle), Joe Cooley (button accordion), Paddy Keenan (uilleann bagpipes), Matt Molloy (flute), and Mary Bergin (tin whistle), and singers such as Joe Heaney, Tríona Ní Dhomhnaill, and Paddy Tunney. In recent years, Irish music has enjoyed increasing popularity worldwide, largely as a result of the wildly successful, internationally performed dance-and-music stage extravaganza, Riverdance, as well as the "steerage scene" from the movie Titanic. Those interested in pursuing the art, if they take it seriously, are warmly welcomed by more experienced traditional musicians.

The music traditionally employs a delightful variety of melody instruments: voice; Uilleann pipes (bellows-blown Irish bagpipes); fiddle; wooden flute; tin whistle (a simple recorder-like instrument); button accordion and two accordion-like instruments, melodeon and concertina; tenor (four-string) banjo; mandolin; harmonica (also called "mouth organ"); harp; and sometimes others. The harp, in fact, is the national symbol of Ireland. Dance tunes are sometimes "lilted" as well, that is, sung with nonsense syllables. While not always regarded as traditional, chordal and rhythmic accompaniment is often provided by, variously, guitar; three lute-like instruments, including cittern, bouzouki (a Greek instrument adopted and now widely played in Irish circles), and mandola (a larger variety of mandolin); piano; bodhrán (a shallow Irish goatskin drum); bones (animal rib-bones or similarly-shaped pieces of wood held between the fingers); and "Jew's harp" or jaw harp.

Irish dance music is typically quite lively and is used indeed for dancing as well as for listening. This music can be sorted into a wide variety of dance tune types, such the reel, the jig of various kinds, hornpipes, set dances, polkas, slides, highlands (also called "flings" and "schottisches"), barndances, waltzes, and mazurkas. There are also types of tunes not used for dancing, including marches, harp compositions such as those by blind harper Turlough O'Carolan (1670-1738), and slow airs. Slow airs are often the instrumental rendition of the melodies, or "airs," of songs, usually sean-nós songs (see below). Most of these types of tunes were borrowed in various centuries past from other traditions. The differences between them are too subtle to allow easy, brief explanation.

The Irish song tradition is diverse and rich. It enjoys a prominent place among the interrelated song traditions of Scotland, England, and North America. Irish songs, with plaintive or sprightly melodies to suit their themes, cover many subjects: love and betrayal, everyday country life and occupations, and historical or newsworthy events. The sean-nós (Irish for "old style") tradition is the relatively unknown, but beautiful Gaelic language tradition still thriving in the Irish-speaking western counties of Ireland. Sean-nós songs are usually sung with very loose time signatures, although not quite in "free time," that is, with no identifiable time signature at all. Most sean-nós songs do indeed have an identifiable rhythm but are interrupted as a singer takes a breath, usually in an unhurried fashion. Consequently, slow airs, played in imitation of sean-nós songs, are played with very loose time signatures as well. There are more or less distinct regional styles of sean nós song, just as there are more or less distinct regional styles of Irish dance music. One style of dance music is the Donegal fiddle tradition.

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An earlier version of this article was posted on Nupedia.

Removal

I have removed the following paragraph because it seems non-neutral, inserted in what seems to have been an attempt to contradict the previous section. The names should be added to the descriptions for each instrument, with a note identifying them as traditional performers. Tuf-Kat 07:41, Sep 19, 2004 (UTC)

Staunch traditionalists however, may find many of the above named musicians populist and not necessarily traditional. Some of the more traditional players would be Paddy Killoran, Martin Byrnes, Kathleen Collins, Paddy Canny, Joe Ryan, Peter Horan, Seamus Tansey, Elizabeth Crotty and Joe Cooley. There are recordings available for most of these players, although the majority of them are now dead.

musicbox

I reverted a removal of the musicbox because I don't understand how it isn't relevant. This article covers part of the UK, and even the other part has long had close musical connections with what is now the UK. Tuf-Kat 02:51, Nov 18, 2004 (UTC)

statement on political division

I have re-added the statement at the beginning about how Ireland is divided into two areas. I don't understand why it was removed, as it clarifies the scope of the article. I don't see how it could be considered POV, since all it states is that the island is divided between the RoI and NI; that fact is not disputed. Tuf-Kat 02:09, Nov 24, 2004 (UTC)

Well I can't understand why a reference to a political border has any relevance to Trad Irish Music, the country is not musically divided. By the way were you ever in Ireland? I've been there several times and I know what it's about. Ian

Your comments are not a response to what I said. This is not an article on "Trad Irish Music". The statement did not claim the country is musically divided. Whether or not either of us have ever lived in or been to Ireland has no bearing. The first paragraph of an article should introduce what is going to be discussed, in this case the music of an island divided into two countries. Tuf-Kat 04:24, Nov 24, 2004 (UTC)

Hi "Tough Cat", the above response wasn't mine, your are talking to someone else there. Typical response from you. Obvisouly you know very little about your subject!

I was responding to whoever wrote the comment between my two. I don't know who wrote either response (since both are unsigned). Unless someone satisfactorily justifies removing the statement from the article, I am going to continue to insist it stays. I have given my reasoning (the first paragraph of an article should introduce what is going to be discussed). The only counterarguments thus far presented are the country is not musically divided, which is irrelevant since the article has never said it was, and Forget politics man, trad Irish music has one and same culture!, which is also not relevant since the article has never claimed otherwise, and is not about "trad Irish music" anyway. Tuf-Kat 02:19, Nov 25, 2004 (UTC)

craic

I remember the word "crack" used for "conversation" in Newcastle in the 1970's, before I ever encountered the supposed Irish word "craic". Sir Walter Scott uses it in Rob Roy (1817), "I maun hai a crack wil an auld acquaintance here". Robert Burns wrote "Tell your crack/Before them a", in "The Authors Cry", in 1786, implying the meaning "a joke". "To ca' the crack", in Yorkshire, means to keep the conversation going. I agree that "craic" should be discouraged.

Re:craic This amendment is mere 3rd party hearsay. Brendan Behan used the word in the 1950's, on on a TV interview. Robert Burns was in fact part Irish, that might explain his use of the word. As for me, growing up in Ireland (1940's) I remember the phrase "what's the craic" being used very much in western and southern Ireland. "Session" is in fact of Latin origin (sessio), via French. In any case I believe that this addition does not really belong here and adds nothing of interest to the "Music of Ireland" page. Maybe 67.177.200.77 should make a new page on the subject. Blackarrow.

Re: craic

It is a perfectly valid contemporary word in both Irish and Irish English, but it is also derived from the word "crack" as used in Scots and English. (Much as flúir, which is as appropriate a word in Irish as bláth, is derived from Scots "flooer" or English "flower".)

Spelling it "craic" in English (which might have been the primary objection of the original poster?) may be slightly silly, but it's harmless enough. I quite agree that this doesn't seem to be an issue appropriate to the "Music of Ireland" page

Reversion of notes

An anon recently added notes to many sections, explaining why the article is wrong. I reverted because articles should not contradict themselves. If the anon would like to fix the text in a neutral fashion, that would be wonderful. Tuf-Kat 21:48, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)

Hi, if you could give me an example of how to say neutrally that "the list of fiddle players does not consist of traditional musicians", that would help. As far as I can see, anything I would write would be construed as contradicting the article, and therefore removed. So if you provide me with an example of something that would NOT be removed, that would be great. This also makes me wonder if the whole method of wikipedia is wrong. It appears that "first come is the authority". Nobody is allowed to disagree. If I delete large swathes of the page in question and write it from my POV (after all the current page is hopelessly biased by the authors POV), does that make things right? Am I allowed to do that? After all, that would mean I was not contradicting but merely rewriting. This is not a flame, it is a genuine series of questions.

Just make your changes in line with our policy on a Neutral Point-of-View. For example, you would not need to say "the list of fiddle players does not consist of traditional musicians", primarily because there is no list which purports to be of traditional fiddlers. You could make such a list, preferably along with explaining how the traditional fiddlers are different than other fiddlers.

Rewrite whatever sections you want, just be prepared to cite a source in case there is a disagreement. Do you have access to print resources on the subject? The most important thing to remember is that opinions need to be attributed to the person(s) who hold them, so as long as you keep that in mind, you should be fine with rewriting. Tuf-Kat 14:56, Feb 19, 2005 (UTC)

OK thanks. Bit busy and not getting much time on here at the moment. But will do, thanks for the help.

Example new bands of Ireland

Who on earth is Colm O'Loughlin? His entry sounds like it was added by himself. I've never heard of him. Actually successful new acts of Ireland are the likes of The Redneck Manifesto, Damien Rice, The Chalets, Jape, The Frames, etc.

O'Connor

I have moved Gerry O'Connor from banjo to fiddle - that's what he's best known for. I have changed Pat O'Connor to "Pat O'Connor (fiddler)" to remove the association with the formula One driver. I have removed Patrick Moran because he's Canadian - he doesn't belong here. I have added Maire Breatnach.Ogg 10:06, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Bad move. There are two Gerry O'Connors, both famous. One for fiddle playing and one for banjo playing. I'm putting "banjo" Gerry back in his rightful place, but as Gerry O'Connor (banjo). 13:19, 10 Aug 2005 (GREG)

Removal

I removed the following paragraph from a lead because it is out-of-place, biased and unencyclopedic.

Recordings by commercially successful musicians and bands certainly are a valid way to learn about current trends in music. However, the traditional music of Ireland and other closely associated musical forms is played 'live' worldwide in homes and pubs by ordinary people from all walks of life, and is passed on from generation to generation in the oral tradition.

To hear the music of Ireland all one must do is find an Irish pub anywhere in the world and ask about for where a session can be heard. Then go and listen in real time to the "Music of Ireland".

I agree that it's poorly formatted and the style is wrong for an encyclopedia article. But the sentiment, ISTM, is quite common amongst Irish musicians. I think it would make sense to say something about this if it could be expressed in an NPOV manner. Also, TUF-KAT, could you sign your comments, please? --Craig Stuntz 13:43, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree the sentiment, expressed in a neutral manner, should be in the article. Tuf-Kat 16:11, September 6, 2005 (UTC)

Removal

I removed the band Capercaillie from the list of Irish bands in the first section as they are Scottish. Gwyfyn 14:11, September 18, 2005 (UTC)

Removal and alteration

I removed the following paragraph from the lead about set dancing, because Riverdance features step dancing rather than set dancing and the information given about the number of dancers and the time of revival was inadequate.

Set dancing, generally danced by groups of varying sizes (a "set" is a group of a certain number of dancers), is one of the most popular forms of the Irish traditional dances, revived along with other Irish cultural forms, during the Celtic Revival period of the nineteenth century, and again re-popularized after the success of the Broadway-style musical Riverdance in 1994.

I altered the information about set dancing accordingly and placed the comment about Riverdance under the heading of step dancing. Gwyfyn 15:01, September 18, 2005 (UTC)

Delisted GA

There are no images. slambo 17:44, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Pet peeves against certain instruments/accompaniment

A couple of comments in the banjo and mando sections struck me as POV (and irritated me personally somewhat as a player of these instruments.) In the banjo section, we see "Skilled and sensitive players will generally find themselves welcomed in "open" sessions, provided no more than one plays at a time." The "provided no more than one plays at a time" qualification strikes me as odd. Why would some players be opposed to hearing more than one "skilled and sensitive" player at a time? Is this just the author's view, or can we actually attribute this sentiment to someone specific?

In the mandolin section, "Chord-strumming on the mandolin (particularly bluegrass-style "chop" strumming) does not blend well in an Irish traditional music setting." Two related points here:

-bluegrass techniques don't blend in readily in ITM

-no chording on the mando will "blend" well (even if the player is a skilled accompanist in ITM).

Both points are aesthetic jugements and thus POV. In my own view the first point seems more easily supported than the second: chording on other mandolin-related instruments (mandola, bouzuki) by competent players seems to be accepted readily by many in the ITM scene, so what is it that makes the mandolin so offensive? (and who, specifically, finds it to be so?)

Having said this, pet peeves against incompetent/insensitive players of certain instruments in ITM do seem to be held by many musicians, and if we had some quotes from Irish musicians or experts on Irish music that conveyed these sentiments, I think it would be worthwhile. I liked the handling of this topic in the bodran section: the phrase "multiple conflicting bodhráns being beaten simultaneously" strikes me as hilarious.

I wonder if a section somewhere in the article dealing generally with harmonic accompaniment in ITM might be warranted. Some traditionalists frown on the very idea of accompaniment on principle, and other listeners simply prefer to hear unadorned unison playing. A bit of history dealing with accompaniment on different instruments might be good here too. I'm not sure where in the article woul be a good spot for such a section, though. Eloil 00:58, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't think those comments fit into this article at all; they might fit in Irish traditional music session. This article is already overly long and a discussion of session dynamics is off-topic here in my opinion. As to whether or not multiple banjos or "non-traditional" instruments are welcome in a session, it really depends on your session; some seem to be much stricter than others. As for chording on the mandolin, any absolute statement on a matter of aesthetics is almost certainly wrong. The statement could be changed to "Chord-strumming on the mandolin (particularly bluegrass-style "chop" strumming) is uncommon in Irish traditional music."--Craig Stuntz 14:42, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Accordion/concertina section

A poster mentioned above the excessive length of the "Music of Ireland" article. I think a sizable chunk of this excessive length results from the detailed description of concertina types in the accordion/concertina section. There seems almost to be more detail here on the anglo and english systems than in the concertina article itself. In my view, the scope of the article demands little more than a description of the difference between the two systems (different notes on push/pull vs same note) and the degree to which each is employed in Irish music (ideally with some examples of musicians).

On the other hand, the accordion part of this section seems to have no information on the different types of accordions used in ITM. I'm no expert on the topic, but I think an overview of the instrument should include some of the following points:

-Two main types in ITM: diatonic and piano accordions

-Diatonic ("button") accordions are more commonly played

-based on the diatonic scale

-different notes on push/pull

-right hand plays on small round buttons organized in vertical rows: each row plays the notes of a particular key

-some types have a row that includes accidentals not included in the other rows

-selected chords/bass notes on left side

-push/pull setup means many chords may be impossible w/right hand

-not all of these missing chords are supplemented by left hand buttons

-Piano accordions less common in ITM

-typically much larger than diatonics

-right hand plays on piano keyboard: easier for players with piano experience to start

-left side has many chords and bass notes: often many chord types in all keys

Currently there is no introduction tying together the parts on accordions and concertinas. Conceivably each could have its own section but I think two instruments so closely related belong in the same section. Also, the concertina part can describe the anglo by referring to the diatonic accordion and the english by referring to the piano accordion, without having to duplicate the push/pull scenario explanation.(Hopefully I've matched up the right accordion to the right concertina here.) I know far less about concertinas than I do about accordions, but I've heard that the anglo is very closely analagous to a three-row diatonic with an accidental row, if you put the top half of the accordion on one side of the bellows and the bottom on the other. This isn't a very graceful explanation, but does anyone else know what I'm talking about? Eloil 23:32, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Patrick Cassidy

What about mentionning Patrick Cassidy described as "Ireland's most important classical composer"? Web site: http://www.patrickcassidy.com

I prefer Shaun Davey, but the real objection is: he's based in Los Angeles. Ogg 19:44, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Alteration - Harp

I've removed the second paragraph in the harp section

The most renowned Irish harpist of recent decades is likely Máire Ní Chathasaigh. Other notable recent Irish harpists include Laoise Kelly (of The Bumblebees), Mary O'Hara, Antoinette McKenna, Derek Bell (of The Chieftains) and Aine Minoque.

since several of the names were already included in the first paragraph (I've added the rest of them there) and the claim about the most renowned harpist is very subjective (I'm not familiar with Máire Ní Chathasaigh, but I know of several of the others). Magnus 16:45, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

I'll be completely honest upfront on this one....I am an Irish American. While my parents are from Ireland and Irish Music was beaten into me as a child I will always defer to people from Ireland because I grew up under different circumstances. My problem with this article is that while The Coors and Boyzone are mentioned there is no mention of Paddy Reilly, The Wolfetones & Phil Coulter. Is the article about Irish music or Irish people that sing music? Do people of Irish descent outside of Ireland count? I throw this out there as an honest question and as someone new to this page. It seems the page is very heavy into "very" traditional Irish music and the "very" new stuff. I would argue that bands like Boyzone are not singing Irish music rather they are Irishmen sing American crap but that is another argument for another time. What about a mention of bands like the Dropkick Murphys or Floggin Molly in this article? I am interested to hear what others have to say.--Looper5920 10:58, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

This article does need a better focus and organization. The "music of Ireland" ought to include all the music produced in Ireland, in any style; to some extent, it also needs to go into Irish music elsewhere. The top of "music of Ireland" includes how it has effected the music of other places, whether by emigration or otherwise. However, the topic is broad enough there needs to be a number of subarticles (there's a Celtic music in the United States, mostly about the Irish, and a Celtic music in Canada, mostly about the Scottish IIRC), on things like Irish folk music, Irish pop and such. I don't know whether Dropkick Murpys or Flogging Molly need to have a mention by name, but that sort of topic should have at least a brief description and link to more complete coverage (in the context of Irish music in the US). Tuf-Kat 05:19, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Alteration - Accordion and Concertina

I updated the section on the Accordion to give it better coverage. I am thinking of revising the concertina section as well. In particular, while the English does show up in Sessions from time to time, it is almost unkown in recordings and is definitely a much more recent introduction to the tradition. It should also be stressed that the Concertina is most typical of the music of Clare. Bill_McHale 9 February 2006

Mick McAuley of Solas uses both Anglo and English concertinas on Solas's recordings. Then there's this. There are probably others; I can't claim any expertise on the subject beyond enjoying listening to the instruments. I agree that Anglo concertinas predominate, but careful about overgeneralizations. :) --Craig Stuntz 14:57, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Well I did say almost unknown :). I didn't know that Mick also played English. As for Sarah Graves, I am not sure she fits in the Tradition strictly speaking. Yes she does play several Trad tunes, but most of the tracks look to be English or Scottish Tunes. I am not saying that the English won't end up in the Tradition, but at the moment it is pretty marginal particularly in the higher levels of playing. In any case, I think the concertina part of the article does need to be revised away from describing the instruments to describing their place in the Tradition. --Bill McHale 18:37, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Regarding Mick, that's what the liner notes for The Words that Remain claim. I couldn't tell you how much he plays each one. --Craig Stuntz 19:17, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I went and looked up the liner notes in question last night and can't find the mention that I remember. So I'm taking back the comments about Mick until I'm sure. Maybe I'm just remembering incorrectly. --Craig Stuntz 12:55, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Whats getting frustating here is that I know the information for concertina. Both through observation and through talking with other players. Every Irish Concertina Tutor on the market, and every Irish Concertina class I have ever seen offered all assume that one is playing the Anglo Concertina. I have been playing Irish Music for 3 years now and the concertina for well over a year. Oh well let me keep researching, I will find the info I need to properly update the concertina write up. I am not saying the English should be taken out, but it does need to be de-emphasized and more attention paid to the actual history of the concertina in Irish Music, not on the details of the instrument itself. -- Bill McHale 18:01, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Music of Ireland belonging to the music of the United Kingdom

I would just like to express my annoyance at the fact that the 'Music of Ireland' article is categorised as 'Music of the United Kingdom'. Also, why is it that the 'Music of the UK' article lists the 'Music of Ireland' under a UK category? Many Irish people would find this very offensive, including myself.

The main annoyance is that the article gives the impression that Irish music is a triumph of the great United Kingdom, which it is certainly not. Three foreign friends have already read the article and have since commented "I didn't know Ireland was in the UK", which has prompted me to write this comment.

I appreciate that Northern Irish musicians are a big part of Irish music, but I do not appreciate 'Music of Ireland' fecklessly lumped under the category of the United Kingdom.

I would like to discuss the matter with moderators and editors involved in these articles.

Thank you.

This article purports to cover the music of an island, part of which is politically part of the United Kingdom. Thus, anybody who wants to study the music of the United Kingdom will need to read this article as well. "Music of Ireland" is, in fact, part of the "Music of the United Kingdom"; it does not follow that "Music of Ireland" can not also be considered a topic in and of itself (which is why we have a separate article on it). Anybody who purports to read something political into that is putting something there that isn't there. With that said, if you'd like to propose something, feel free. Tuf-Kat 02:59, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

'If I were lying drunk in Heathrow airport I'd be Irish but when I win an Oscar- I'm British'- Brenda Fricker rejecting claims in the British media that she was British after she won her Oscar for My Left Foot. And so it is with Irish music and this British invented "UK" colonialism. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. 193.1.172.138 16:34, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Just one small alteration to the harp section. The Celtic harp in its traditional form as we now know it (seen on Irish coinage and the Guinness logo) was played from the 10th century onwards. Evidence suggests that harp instruments before this date were more like lyres, or harp lyres. Square in shape and different from the modern celtic harp we know and love today. Celtic Harper 017:40, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Revision needed

Some of this, particularly in the opening paragraph, is simply wrong and from a very dumb, narrow nationalist POV. It seems to imagine that Britan successfully destroyed all of our traditons. To that end, I've done a bit of revising and will continue to do so. Fergananim 20:39, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, but careful not to swing the POV too far in the opposite direction. I tried to neutralize the voice a little more, as well as cleaning up some grammatical mistakes. -GlamdringCookies 00:32, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Español Content

Here is spanish content that I reverted from the page, and posted the verbose content here so that whoever entered did not have to retype it all upon moving to the Español Wikipedia -GlamdringCookies 23:32, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Factors== ==Social es importante saber que la mayoría de las “tradiciones” de la música y de la danza tradicionales irlandesas modernas son, hasta cierto punto, guesswork y extrapolación. Los artes culturales de Irlanda eran mirados abajo sobre por la energía colonial, que tomó medidas activas de destruir identidad nacional irlandesa, aunque tales esfuerzos nunca eran en última instancia acertados. Música tradicional, viajero irlandés s (AKA el Pavee), y gente que intenta preservar la tradición de la extirpación, preservada y renovada los artforms durante períodos de la apatía de las energías coloniales y del irlandés ellos mismos (véase Thomas Moore, Turlough Carolan, por ejemplo). El estilo regional, una vez una distinción importante de música tradicional irlandesa, está siendo erosionado gradualmente por la facilidad del recorrido y del acceso a las grabaciones. No era una vez unheard para que de un aldeano nunca deje el área inmediata de su aldea; en esos días, podrías decir a menudo la región que un jugador irlandés vino por simplemente de jugar el suyo o del ajuste de una consonancia usada. Como el recorrido de los músicos más extensamente, estilo se convierte en más de una opción personal que simplemente “cómo se juega siempre.” Cantando a menudo se ve como algo muy diferente de música instrumental, y de una orden más alta que la música de danza. Esta actitud se puede observar en muchos session tradicional irlandés de la música s adentro publicación s en Irlanda. Mientras que los músicos están jugando, los patrón pueden tratar la música como clase de música del fondo. Cuando se invita a un cantante que cante, sin embargo, no hay generalmente un sonido que se oirá con excepción de los comentarios reservados que animan al cantante. A menudo, los oyentes pueden cantar junto con estribillos. Hay un tipo de canción tradicional llamado loobeen, en que cada cantante improvisa un verso, siguió por un estribillo cantado por el grupo entero. Algo tristemente, el cantar está llegando a ser más raro en las sesiones públicas y privadas, debido a muchos factores. Éstos incluyen pero no se limitan: la inhabilidad a la tranquilidad los patrón de la publicación (especialmente fuera de Irlanda en donde el cantar no se puede sostener en la misma alta estima); humo del cigarrillo que hace cantar difícil o aún peligroso; la inhabilidad de algunos instrumentalists de apreciar a cantantes de la misma manera que músicos irlandeses nativos; la inhabilidad de algunos cantantes de apreciar música instrumental de la misma manera que cantantes irlandeses nativos; una alergia docta de otros músicos a los cantantes inexpertos incapaces a eligió una canción dentro de sus propias capacidades; los paquetes que viajan de los cantantes que asumen el control a veces sesiones de la música con la canción después de la canción; los no-cantantes a que, sobre hacer la suficiente bebida tomar, la demanda para ser dejó canta a “muchacho de Danny,” etc.

Sean nós

I've made a number of edits to the article on sean nós, but all of my information comes from a book that I have. That is, I do not have any experiential knowledge of the topic: I only know what I have read. Therefore I am writing this comment to try and encourage people who know more than I do to review/edit the sean nós article, which I'm sure can be improved significantly by knowledgeable editors. If asked, I can discuss the basis of my edits, but of course, any statement in the article which was already present in this archived version was put there by a previous editor and I can't really comment on those.

I also am responsible for the link from Ornament_(music).

Zerrakhi 04:27, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

contemporary vs traditional irish music

I would like to encourage all editors of this article to have a look at the talk page of WikiProject Irish Music, and offer input. Music of Ireland is rather dual-purpose at the moment, and perhaps could benefit from disambiguation or sub-articles. To expand this article to include everything within the scope would more than likely make it TL;DR. --Kaini 04:00, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

A minor addition; Music of England deals exclusively with English traditional music; Music of France deals with all French music. Some consistency between 'Music of...' articles would obviously be desirable. --Kaini 04:19, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

GA Re-Review and In-line citations

Members of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. Currently this article does not include in-line citations. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. Agne 03:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Article undreadable

I've just read this article for the first time and it's unreadable. Somebody has filled it up with (source needed) and (original research) tags to such an extent as to make it absolutely unreadable. I mean seriously, does the claim that U2 is the biggest band out of Ireland really need a source? Let's use a bit of common sense here. It seems that every single adjective has to be justified by a source, which is nigh on impossible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.210.35.24 (talk) 21:18, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Good article Review] this article being reviewed for delisting from Good Article status

SEE Good article Review] this article being reviewed for delisting from Good Article status. --Ling.Nut 01:15, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

What is the "Music of the United Kingdom" thing for. This is supposed to be an article about the music of the island of Ireland, Republic and UK, it would be nice if people could leave politics out of it. There's no need for it really. 212.64.98.189 00:35, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism

There has been a lot of vandalism to this page lately, and I think this page should be at least semi-protected.Andrewrhchen 13:28, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

What does this mean?

In addition to folk music, Ireland also has a rich store of contemporary classical music. However contemporary classical music has no impact, and very little exposure in Ireland itself, and therefore abroad. The two sentences are contradictory, although I'm not completely certain what the second sentence is even saying. I have a hard time imagining that there is no impact.--RLent 21:40, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Ulster Scots music

How come not a single bit of this is mentioned?

The bouzouki and mandolin both get a lengthy sections, yet nothing on the lambeg drum or marching (accordion/flute/bagpipe) bands? Tuaisceart Éireann 19:18, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Wondering why 'Music of Northern Ireland' redirects here when it only mentions a couple of artists from the Province, and not in any detail. The combination of Ulster Scots music and NI's history as the last stronghold of punk (plus the latter's role in chronicling the Troubles) seems to me sufficient to merit a separate article. And my word that was a hard paragraph to write without coming across POVcentric. 82.36.76.47 (talk) 15:20, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

De-listing this Article appears to be an extreme response

This article is filled with information, information for which references may be difficult to provide in many cases, requiring much time in addition to that involved in its writing. Much of the information is a reasonable first approximation that I would hope would be refined and bolstered with references over time. I will discuss this issue with someone I know who has strong backgrounds in both Irish music and research with the goal of influencing her to assist in editing this page. In response to criticisms made, the politicization of the topic may be due to sensitization of the first critic after years of abuse, being less obvious to me. I would argue that contemporary classical music in Ireland may be both rich and without broader impact since it may be inadequately published or publicized, although a number of examples of well-known musicians come to mind. Finally, the concern over lack of discussion of lambeg drum and marching bands may be entirely valid. All of these would be matters appropriate for editing by the respective critics. I have minor concerns about the outlining of the music section compared to the dance music section that follows. None of this justifies the de-listing one of the best general discussion of Irish music that I was able to find during my initial search of the Internet. Mark Henigan 03:40, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Article needs large changes to raise quality, needs to be split

Music of Ireland definitely needs large rewriting and a reorganisation. I don’t think there is much intentional bias… just sloppiness. That leaves "Music of Ireland" far below the quality of some other countries. Over the past year, there have been requests for changes. Little seems to have been done. Time for that to change!

The article is contradictory in places, and sometimes inaccurate. Judgemental, and even then the ideas could have been better expressed. Indeed some of the talk serves no purpose at all, whatever one’s bias. The evidence offered for the claims is fairly non existent.

A separate article is needed on traditional music. “Music of Ireland” should then be an overview of all aspects of Music of Ireland.

• • • Does anyone object before I – and anyone else who care to join – embark on such changes? ***

The article in the traditional section rabbits on about changes to the tradition (dubious speculation). However it has little to say on "Irish traditional music are quite distinct to the rhythmic and melodic structures that govern other musical forms". Surely that is vital.

Cckkab 13:40, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

There is already an article called "Traditional Music". Perhaps you intended to say that there should be an acticle called "Folk music of Ireland". There is already an article called "Folk music of England", so this proposition is fully justified.

I am inclined to the position that Celtic traditional instrumental music is distinct from the traditional instrumental music of non-Celtic nations. Within seconds you can distinguish it from Hungarian or Spanish melodies. To claim that Irish tunes are vastly different from Scottish tunes is nonsense. "The Chieftains" and "Boys of the Lough" frequency cross the whole spectrum of Celtic music. There is a huge grey area there.

Far too many of the so-called "great" fiddlers don't have an article. I have written a couple of the ones that do exist. You have to wonder - if they are so great, how come they don't have an article? For an article that is supposed to represent an overview of a subject, there should be some kind of over-riding rule regarding how many gaps are permissible. I have counted

• 23 genuine blue links for Irish fiddlers
• 30 (empty) red links
• 3 fake links ("Tom Barrett", "Gerry Harrington" and "Tim Browne" lead to nowhere sensible)
• 1 link to a non-wikipedia site (Brendan Mullvihill)

Surely the ratio of genuine links to empty links should be 2:1 or better. This means brutal thinning out of so-called important fiddlers. I am prepared to do this, but I fear some kind of backlash from interested parties. Ogg (talk) 20:05, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I have googled every one of the fiddlers and removed the 15 who have got the fewest citations on the web. This kind of article shouldn't be a laundry-list. Ogg (talk) 20:13, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

The most bloated parts of this article are

• "Accordion and concertina"
• "Traditional Music"

These should be created as separate articles, or perhaps removed into one big article called "Folk Music of Ireland". What remains behind should be mercilessly compressed to remove the descriptions and concentrate on the prominent archievers and most notable movements.

Similarly "Classical Music in Ireland" should be created as a separate article, and the current text rewritten as a summary for use within "Music of Ireland".

This would leave us with a bloated "Folk Music of Ireland" article, but at least there would a serious chance of bringing "Music of Ireland" back into a more compressed, less flabby form. I'm shapening my knives. Are there any more butchers out there ready for action? Ogg (talk) 02:04, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

OK, I have made the split. Almost all of the folk music material has been transferred to the new article "Folk music of Ireland". I have made a few changes. Feel free to undo what I did, or make massive changes. Ogg (talk) 10:16, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

• • • The improvements are good.. but don't go far enough. Also there is much more info available... take a look here

http://phonoarchive.org/grove/Entries/S13901.htm suggesting a complete reorganisation. We could also take a leaf out of Music history of Portugal ... page is better structured For one, we need to transfer some of the Folk (eg Table with top rock groups in the Folk article e.g. into some other article... maybe here). cckkab (talk) 08:02, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Awful article

I'm not really interested in working on any article pertaining to world music since I already have my hands full working in the area of heavy metal music. I was just checking what article links to the Celtic metal page that I only recently just recreated. This is one of them. Now I do not wish to offend anyone but I feel compelled to say that this article is incredibly poor. Horrifying. It is full of original research left and right with not a single in line reference. There's even an advertisement for a place that has somehow found its way here. An advert that has been around since June 2007. Is there nobody that watches this article? What makes this most ridiculous though is that the music of Ireland is one of the world's most well-known regional or ethnic music. There has to be dozens, if not hundreds, of books written on Irish music in one form or another. There must be all sorts of reliable sources that one can find on the internet about Irish music. I could do miracles all by my lonesome on something as relatively little known like folk metal yet this article on the music of Ireland can be neglected to such an extent? I find it hard to believe it was ever a good article. Can someone pinpoint the exact date that it was ever considered a good article because I really like to know.
As far back as September 2004, this article has included a paragraph on an apparently non-notable Irish hip-hop scene. I said apparently non-notable because not one of the five groups mentioned in that paragraph even have their own article page on wikipedia. All red links and nobody bats an eye? Since September 2004, might I emphasise. And celtic metal is part of the black metal scene? Excuse me if my fully referenced work on celtic metal indicates no such thing. Nobody comes across the term "Celtic battle metal" and think neologism? Then you have this sentence: "Ireland was comparatively poorly-represented in the growing electronic music genre, but several groups did release albums, such as Skintone." If its poorly-represented, why even mentioned it? Can you spot the problem with this phrase: "Country and Western music from the United States returned back over the ocean and is immensely popular in Ireland." All that just from one section in the article.
Perhaps the most blatant problem though is the paragraph at the lead section where not one but 29 different bands or artists are listed as examples of Irish groups with "success nationally and internationally." That's 29 bands! At least nobody had inserted a Celtic metal band in there. I might not be most knowledgeable person on Irish music but even I can tell that some of these 29 bands do not deserve to be on the list. The High Kings? Who? Oh, it's a group with a debut album only in 2008. What? Now, I've torn this article apart by ripping huge chunks of it away. I would have deleted a lot more only the result would have literally been an empty page. So I littered the article with tags requesting citations for many statements and questioning whether other statements are original research (and they are). I'm not going to work on this because it's not something I'm interested in. There are many other articles I'd rather devote my precious time to. I realize the article looks awful now with all the tags I inserted in the article but the awful appearance befits its awful substance. If anyone has a problem with that, go do the hard work and look for references. Perhaps people will now realize how much work the article really needs. I will offer this advice though: delete everything on the page and start the article all over again from scratch. That's what I did for other poorly written genre articles like gothic metal.--Bardin (talk) 11:26, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

This article is Music of Ireland, not "American Music Inspired by Irish Music" so I deleted the paragraph about American bands like Dropkick Murphys. They are NOT Irish, they are American. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.72.148.208 (talk) 21:11, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Over-elaborate and arrogant intrusion

The main brunt of the criticisms by "CCkkab" and "Bardin" fall on the introductory paragraphs - written by me. I have therefore deleted two contentious sentences and provided citations for every instance of a tag. Don't be over-awed by their arrogance. They only consider this article to be contentious because they are not familiar with the subject. If folkies were to read articles on rap, much of it would appear to be equally strange. I have deleted all the tags from the rest of the article. Anyone who puts more than six tags on an article that has existed for years, and been polished by dozens, deserved to told to "mind their own business". Ogg (talk) 21:16, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Wow. You're being rather defensive and uncivil. Is this an article you own then? Contrary to what you suggested, the main brunt of my criticism did not fall on the introductory paragraphs but rather the body of the article, full of original research that lacks in-line citations to meet verifiability. I had already removed some blatant original research but did not remove them all since the article would be left rather barren as a result. The entire sections on Irish rock and classical music are completely devoid of references, for instance. You did not improved the article and yet you removed the tags. I daresay that is very inappropriate. The fact that other articles are as poorly written as this is not an excuse to remove the tags. Nor is it of any relevance that this article has been in existence for years. A house can become dilapidated over time and that is exactly what this article has become when I stumbled on it. If you cannot improve this article and address the concerns that more than one other editor has expressed, then you should heed your own insult and mind your own business. Please do not remove the tags again. --Bardin (talk) 02:19, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I wrote all of the folk section, and almost every sentence within it was tagged - unjustly. You seem to be saying that it's OK to accuse wikipedia contributers of the crime or "Original research", even though a seach on the web would have revealed that the information is out there after all. The business of the Chieftains being responsible single-handedly of reviving the bodhran is a fact. All you had to do was to bother to read the Wikipedia articles on Sean O'Riada, Ceoltoiri Cualan, and The Chieftains. If you want to create enemies, I recommend that you put many tags into articles that you do not have much extertise in. Aslo try deleting huge sections of article without starting a debate in the "Talk" section BEFORE doing anything drastic. The Clancy brothers were massivly important in the folk revival in Ireland. They were an Irish group, working in the USA. I have reinstated a sentence about them, and a bit about the bodhran. Please do not remove them without discussing it on the talk page first. Someone had put a tag in a header concerning "Original research", yet there is nothing the talk section about it, nor any tags within the article pinpointing it. I have therefore removed that bit of the heading. I don't see anything "unclear" about the citations I provided so I have removed that complaint as well. Ogg (talk) 04:38, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Wow again. You really do have an ownership issue with this article. I am just following wikipedia's policies, something that you apparently need to familiarise yourself with. I'm not accusing anyone of any crime but original research is not something that is acceptable on wikipedia. Articles are not written merely for experts to read but for everyone else. It matters not if I have any expertise in the subject matter. Any sentence or claim that do not meet wikipedia's guidelines or policies regarding verifiability and original research should be removed. Don't tell me something is a fact if there is no supporting evidence for it. If this business of the Chieftains being "single-handedly" responsible for reviving the bodhran is a fact, then surely you can find and use some reliable source to support it. What you are using is a fanpage on the internet.

You are asking me now not to remove these unsupported claims but you have no problems removing the tags that other editors and myself have added to this article. One example of an unclear citation is this webpage used for the claim that Irish stepdance was performed at ceilis, organised competitions and at some country houses where local and itinerant musicians were welcome. I see no mention of the words ceilis or competition on that webpage. More importantly, there are seven different articles on that single page. Which one exactly are you citing and for what? The original research tag is for the many sentences that are completely unverified and unsupported by any reliable sources as references. Do not remove these tags again.

Also please refrain from tagging your edits as minor when they are not minor. Only superficial differences such as typos and formatting should be tagged as minor. Adding entire sentences are not. Before you go around calling other editors arrogant for messing up your precious work, perhaps you should take a look and read all the relevant policies and guidelines of wikipedia. I am perfectly within my right to remove any unsupported sentences that come across as original research. Such sentences as "This was the first time that sales of Irish music records became substantial." If that's a fact, then please provide reliable sources as references. --Bardin (talk) 05:41, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

The Clancy Brothers were the first group to produce an album of traditional Irish music that reached the UK charts. Source: "The Guinness book of British Hit records". If their recordings were selling well in the UK, it's a pretty safe bet that they were selling better in Ireland. Unfortunately record companies are notoriously secretive about the actual volume of sales, so a definitive number cannot be quoted. You just have to accept this as probable.

If that's the sort of prose that has to be put into Wikipedia in order to get past censors like you, then Wikipedia is not the place for me. You might just as well replace the encyclopedia with a collection of quotations followed by a collection of citations. Not exactly user-friendy. Not exacly flowing prose. A country house party is a type of ceili. The fact that the word "ceili" doesn't appear on the page is irrelevant. I leave the article for somebody else to repair.Ogg (talk) 06:59, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Wow yet again. You went from "the Clancy Brothers were the first group to produce an album of traditional Irish music that reached the UK charts" to "it's a pretty safe bet that they were selling better in Ireland" and then from there to the sentence you actually wrote in the article: "the Clancy Brothers became famous in the USA"? Nice jump. Once again, original research and verifiability. If you do not like the policies of wikipedia, feel free to leave. --Bardin (talk) 07:13, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

The Pogues - Are they Irish?

Why are The Pogues included in this article? They are not Irish and they didn't create their music in Ireland. Their music draws heavily on Irish folk music, but that's not really the same thing is it? Djkrysa (talk) 17:38, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

The title of the article is Music of Ireland, not Irish Musicians or whatever, and they do play Irish music (as well as their own stuff).Hohenloh ⁺ 18:07, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

I take your point, but playing music that contains many elements of Irish folk music, does not make the music Irish. I understand the title to mean music from the island of Ireland(north and south).Djkrysa (talk) 13:37, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

I removed the reference to the Pogues and Shane MacGowan. He is not Irish, he was not born in Ireland, He did not create any of his music in Ireland and he doesn't live in Ireland. Djkrysa (talk) 12:39, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Someone keeps restoring the deletion. Why?

From the wikipedia entry - "The Pogues are a Celtic punk band from London, formed in 1982 and fronted by Shane MacGowan." Do we include Led Zeppelin in an article about American blues music?Do we include UB40 in an article about Jamaican music? Containing elements of Irish music does not warrant inclusion in the articleDjkrysa (talk) 12:35, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

If artists are included only if they include some elements of traditional Irish music, not because of where they originate from, or created their music, shouldn't we delete references to U2, Boyzone, Therapy? etc. ?Djkrysa (talk) 13:02, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

As far as I'm aware, the only current member of the group, out of eight, who is Irish is Terry woods. I think he sometimes plays concertina. Shane MacGowan is definitely NOT Irish. He is an English public school boy. Westminster I think.Djkrysa (talk) 13:25, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

"Irish Music is music that has been created in various genres on the island of Ireland." - The first sentence of the article Djkrysa (talk) 10:21, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Early Irish Music

The current quotes from AFM should - I believe - be summarised with the actual quotations put in references. This new section is certainly worth expanding, I've skimmed Ann Buckleys article Music in Prehistoric and Medieval Ireland, pp. 744-813, in A New History of Ireland, volume one, Oxford, 2005. and it looks good (though this is certainly not my field...). There's also Angela Gleesons article on Music in in Seán Duffy. Medieval Ireland. An Encyclopedia. Abingdon and New York. (pp. 346-8) - I could probably provide a copy of the latter if anyone wants to make use of it. Regards, Finn Rindahl (talk) 13:42, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I think this is a good addition and thanks to Fergananim for starting it; I have also made an editing suggestion. There are lots of sources, including Breathnach's Folk Music and Dancing of Ireland and a book called Dear Harp of My Country (James Flannery), which has lots of historical info. On the other hand, one could write a book about this (it's been done), and the section can't be toooo loooong. Hohenloh ⁺ 13:57, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Well, if it gets tooo looong we could copy it to Early music in Ireland (or Music in early Ireland) and just leave a summary here ;) That would be useful to make Ireland 800–1169 (my current "project") concern more than Kings and Vikings as well... Anyway, keeping it short and to the point was the reason I suggested summarising those annalistic entries instead of quoting them in full, let's see what Fergananim says. Regards, Finn Rindahl (talk) 14:28, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually, your suggestions for those articles are good. However, I'm more into "modern" traditional music and might not be the best contributor to these, as well as having several other projects on the boil. Hohenloh ⁺ 17:02, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Skipping over topics

I don't think the article's text focuses enough on the prevalence of the Irish Showbands- their popularity, and stranglehold on televised music in Ireland. Blues rock artists like Van Morrison, and Rory Gallagher in the 1960s found they had to leave Ireland just to jump-start their careers and achieve any notability - going to London to find record labels that would sign them. The same was still true in the 1970s with Thin Lizzy- drummer Brian Downey and bass guitarist Phil Lynott went to London to begin recording and holding auditions for Thin Lizzy for that same reason. This should be covered in the text! Too much of the text doesn't flow and isn't readable. --Leahtwosaints (talk) 14:33, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Definition of sections

The division of the sections seems off on this article, and the subsequent articles that are linked through to from it. The section Traditional music says Main article: Folk music of Ireland, and the Popular music section, Main article: Irish rock – people like Phil Coulter, Maura O'Connell and Sharon Shannon can't be placed alongside Thin Lizzy and Snow Patrol.

And similarly in the Traditional Music section, The Clancy Brothers and The Dubliners are folk groups, not trad musicians.

I think we need to rearrange the sections somewhat, primarily having:

• Early music, with subsections for things like Gregorian chant, harpists etc.
• Classical music for people like Shaun Davey, Raymond Deane…
• Trad music, for Clannad, DeDannan, Altan, etc, as well as decriptions of pub sessions, sean-nós, fleadhs etc, etc.
• Folk music, for Christy Moore, Damien Dempsey, Mary Black, Moving Hearts, Lisdoonvarna, etc,etc.
• Show Bands, description of dance hall music & popularity, most notable, importance in era, etc., as Leahtwosaints said above.
• Popular music, for 'modern music' – i.e. Pop & Rock, starting from Van Morrison, Rory Gallagher, etc. up to Westlife/Snow Patrol, with subsection for fusion music, e.g. The Pogues, Kíla, Thin Lizzy, etc.

Any thoughts? Dave (talk) 16:42, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, that looks good to me and picks up on some of the issues raised above. A lot of these sections already have articles of which they can be summaries.--SabreBD (talk) 17:22, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Cool, I'll start working on this over the next while (trying to procrastinate from college deadlines =P). At the moment, I've added subheadings to each section, just to see what's there & try to rework it – it's a heavy piece of text to get into. Few more thoughts:

• "Artists of note" style sentences have the potential to become people's favourite bands, with no reason for inclusion. Possibly some benchmark should be given, like they have to at least be in the charts, or the first band to do X,Y,Z or whatever.
• Section for Eurovision? – Ireland have won more than any other country, might be worth a mention here, though maybe out of place
• Irish music in TV/film?: (The Commitments came on iTunes while I was editing!) – Could speak of The Commitments, Once/Oscar etc., Titanic? (might be pushing it, though everyone seems to know Cooley's reel because of it!)

Dave (talk) 20:45, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Big long list of names

I removed the big long list of names from Republic of Ireland and stuck the ones that weren't duplicates in t lead here to the end of the lead here. So made the big long unreadable list here worse. They should be stuck into the main body under heading and nearly all removed from the top - especially those where they say 'also' or 'other'. Dmcq (talk) 20:22, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Hello Dmcq,

I couldn't agree with you more. The lead section of any WP article should be a short and crisp overview of the content of the article. As a first pass, I sorted the first long list in alphabetic order but, IMHO, that only made the problem even more obvious. :-)

Therefore, we should be bold and aim to remove the last two paragraphs from the current version of the lead section after re-locating every single name into the appropriate section in the body of the article.

I am certainly happy to carry out this fairly simple (though cumbersome) task, but would prefer to know that I have the support of several editors interested in improving this article.

Since I am no expert in the subject matter, here is the approach I would take:

• Copy and paste these two paragraphs (both lists of names) into a separate Word document on my computer and carry out the following steps in that document:
  • Create sub-lists for each of the styles of music that have sections in the article
  • Re-locate each name from the original list into the new sub-lists, organized in alphabetic order
  • For names that I don't recognize, research them to identify their style of music prior to inserting them into the relevant sub-list
  • When all names are in sub-lists, then
• Copy and paste each sub-list back into the WP article's relevant section, perhaps in a new, generic sub-section entitled "Notable artists:"
• Delete the last two paragraphs of the article's lead section.

This way, all the names entered by previous editors would be retained and now suitably located within their relevant sub-section. If future editors want to add prose for any of the artists named in the new list(s) of "Notable artists:", then they can do so within each sub-section, on the basis of their expertise in the subject matter. I am obviously open to other suggestions and ideas, as I am not a seasoned editor and would certainly appreciate any constructive feedback on the best approach to solve this issue.

I will wait for feedback from you and other editors before embarking on this activity. It would be good to have the support of a good quorum, perhaps 3-4 editors; any ideas?

Thank you for your helpful assistance, at your convenience.

With kind regards for now; Patrick. Pdebee (talk) 10:16, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

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