Talk:Music of Greece/Archive 1

Archive 1

Problems

These categories need a lot of rearranging. The island music can be broadly grouped under nisiotika, then broken down by island. Mainland styles should be grouped together, then broken down by northern and southern. And there's something called "Byzantine Music" intermediate between Ancient and Modern, and which still exists as a genre of church music (there's also still some performance of classical, Byzantine secular music as well).

I've also noticed conflation of dance styles with music styles in certain sections (like the "Peloponnesos" section, which badly needs to be renamed "Peloponnese"). Tsakonika isn't a style of music - in fact, Tsakonians have been singing their songs almost exclusively in Standard Modern Greek for quite some time, and I'm not aware of sufficient stylistic differences in the instrumental performances that would make it any different from other Peloponnesian varieties. The Tsakonians do perform unique dances, mainly women's dances, but these are, I believe, performed with vocal accompaniment only. --Jpbrenna 22:54, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Are you talking about this article? Or the articles in Category:Greek music in general? In either case, feel free to make changes. I wrote much of what's here, but I confess I'm no expert, so feel free to do what's needed. Tuf-Kat 21:11, May 26, 2005 (UTC)

Both, actually. --Jpbrenna 21:22, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Tsifteteli

I would suggest re-wording the Tsifteteli section like so:

Tsifteteli is a type of music that was bought over by refugees from Asia Minor in the 1920's. It is simillar to to belly dance (or raqs sharqi) music. The Arabic and Turkish influence on this type of music is very clear, and adds to the cultural similarities Greeks have with the Middle East. This is an extremely popular form of modern Greek music, and played almost everywhere in Greece. Some popular modern popular artists who include tsifteteli in their music are Despina Vandi, Eleni Karousaki, Yiorgos Mazonakis]], and many others.

If this is agreed to and someone throws it in, then please feel free to remove this comment.

-Harmil 20:21, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Modern Laiko

The article lacks reference to the Modern Laiko/pop and 'dog-music' Pictureuploader 18:13, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Rebetiko?

I find within this article the forms Rempetika, Rembétika, rebetika, and Rebetiko, sometimes capitalized and sometimes not, sometimes with an accent and sometimes not. Shouldn't these all be standardized to Rebetiko, which is the title of the Wikipedia article, and made internal links? Strawberryjampot (talk) 18:32, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

I standardized everything to rebetiko and made internal links. I don't think any one form of transliteration is right, but I do think it's important to be consistent, otherwise it's confusing to newcomers and gives a sloppy appearance. I took out all the accents over the e for the form rebetiko both for consistency and because the accent makes the internal linking not work. Again, I wouldn't object to the accent, but if we have it I think we ought to have it everywhere, both in this article and related ones. Strawberryjampot (talk) 23:18, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

A few more topics

I'm just a fan, not an authority, but it seems to me that this article needs an awful lot more work. Just a few things that immediately occur to me that don't seem to be addressed:

• Cantadhes
• The Neo Kyma style, its musical and political significance, and its recent revival
• The significance of Hadjidakis' compositions in promoting rebetika to a general audience as a serious art form
• The Greek brass band tradition
• Nissiotika
• The uniquely important relationship of poetry and popular music in Greece
• Greek blues, rock, and rap (none of which I think are very good, but they exist)

... and lots of others. Strawberryjampot (talk) 23:19, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Nearly rewrote all of the article's "Popular music" section. I think that I've included most performers, songwriters and lyricists of every Greek musical genre that a sane Wikipedian who knows about Greek music would find notable, using the most popular in each case transliteration. Now the article does mention the "few more topics" above (even though briefly). A task that took me alot of time was the genrification. The previous situation was "whatever goes" (in Greek "ό,τι να 'ναι"): rappers, intermingled with ska-rockers, and skyládhes. I suspect that many will deem that my addition is an over-the-top-genrification, but note that I was based on what the Greek musical press says about what artist falls under which category. Of course, even the professional journalists often get very fuzzy, and thus we have genre-names whose signified subjects may overlap with each other, but I think that this situation is much better than just having to say "laiko, laika, entekhno, and some other stuff", because this is irrespectful to the complexity of modern Greek music. A big omission of Wikipedia is still a decent article on Greek classical music. I've also written an article on the Heptanese School; for other classical schools, one can read the article on Kalomiris. I think however that this isn't enough regarding the coverage of Greek classical music. And now back to the article's big shame: its third part --the one I've just edited mercilessly-- is unreferenced! The info in itself is in principle verifiable, since all of it is common knowledge in Greece. The problem is in finding the appropriate professional works documenting the info. Sadly, they are all in Greek, and they are mainly music magazines or, occasionaly, popularized music-history books. If anyone has an idea on how this (referencing the article) should be done is welcome to give their input. Omnipedian (talk) 07:07, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Genre

I'm trying to de-orphan the article Chrisanthos, and I feel a mention here would be appropriate. However, I do not know the official name of the singer's genre, having come to the stub through WP: Orphan. Is anyone here more familiar with Chrisanthos's work than I am? Darkfrog24 (talk) 12:38, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Too many red links

There are far too many "artist" and "composer" links on here that are red links; red links are fine, but most of these red links are linked only from this page, which means that there is a lot of self-promotion going on here. Non-notable links should be removed. I think all the lists should be eliminated altogether. Timneu22 (talk) 14:37, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

I'd agree with just removing all red links from this particular page. If there is compelling reason to have any, someone can put those back and explain why here. I think the lists would be ok to keep if they were shortened by deleting the red links. I may just delete all the red links eventually, unless there are objections here. Strawberryjampot (talk) 03:05, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Vandal hordes attacking

Well, this article, along with other Greek music articles, is under heavy attack, some weeks now. I think the last coherent version is this: by User:SBaker43 in 26 March. Here is the dif with the current version. Should we restore it? Or make the whole article manualy over? It's 95 edits in the past. Most of them vandals-Yangula (talk) 13:46, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Ok, since no one is against it I am reverting. -Yangula (talk) 22:16, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Bifaster, 9 April 2011

This informations are plasmaticks and unseful about the Greek music,except if we talk for something else and not about Greek music

Bifaster (talk) 01:31, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

 Not done I see no request. BTW if you are greek, do not add information unpublished previously by sources and stop creating accounts. Tbhotch* ^{۩ ۞} 01:43, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

/* I jail of democracy ips

Vandalism attack and hide of GR perpose by non existed unoficial informs with no base and respond in greek music night reality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.152.85.32 (talk) 13:05, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

meaning of zeibekiko and vandalism by perpose (by donated less minority - users? propably )

The zeimpekikos comes the first part of Zeus and the second from the injectors or vekos this word meaning "bread" in Herodotus as the dictionarists reference,after in the years of Othomany Greeks from Thrace take this name from there Its clearly that belongs in ancient Greece where Thracians later founded a colony in Asia Minor Tralleis so Its about greek ancient world Its a reference of the book of "national USA article - artrologist's" even if is written on this article even if its not. *ans some P.S. nightlife has got such so many instrumentals by origin Greek folk dances that based (as zeibekiko,bouzouki,Syrtos,hasapikos,kalamatianos cause if we start it talk.. we wont finish it never... regrets.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.167.242.223 (talk) 13:39, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

laiko

I got an official version of Greek laiko ancient music if U dont like just erase It. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.38.64.156 (talk) 13:35, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

laiko

ALL THE ARTICLES I GIVE IN TIMES . /ITS OFFICIALS —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.38.64.156 (talk) 13:45, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

edit warring

There is an edit struggle going on about various sections of the article between User:Esterrio and me. Transferring our dialogue from my talk-page:

":1st your etymologies you have done are farfetched and from older sources, latest already exists in article. 2nd. When We talk about Greek music during the ottoman empire We mean an aproximately period betweem 15th and 19th , Kanto music locates in 20th. And 3.Your edits needs more precise references,if you wanna save any chances,discuss at TP. So, You are welcome to contribute constructively to Wikipedia, but your recent edits have been reverted or undone.I dont want to report you straight in Wikipedia, but If you continue editing war. I ll do, thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Esterrio (talk • contribs) 15:40, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Hello. I am afraid that your edits need to be referenced with scholarly books and articles. http://www.musicportal.gr/greek_traditional_music/?lang=en and http://www.goarch.org/ on which you base your edits are certainly not reliable sources. Also, you have not provided a source supporting the revision of the traditional etymology. Lastly, the Ottoman Empire lasted until 1923. A better title for the section would be "Music of the Greek-speaking population of Ottoman Empire (early 20th century." Under this title the content of the section is accurate. I propose modifying the following text regarding "Music of Greece under the Ottoman Empire" and inserting it to the article: "Narrative songs of the ballad type evoke a heroic milieu, either specifi cally that of the social bandits (klefts) of the Ottoman centuries (kléftika tragoúdia or more sporadically recalling memories of ByzantineArab confl ict in the Middle East between the ninth and eleventh centuries (akritiká tragoúdia); alternatively they may move in a more domestic world, in which indications of time and place are absent altogether, to dramatize confl icts within the family group, often abnormally accentuated by the involvement of the supernatural (paraloyés)."[1].

My question is this: if you disagree only with these issues why don't you fix them appropriately instead of keep removing well-referenced content throughout the article? Cheers. --Omnipaedista (talk) 16:28, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Sources are reliable : Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America.

Your sources (like Λάμπρος Λιάβας, Μουσικές στο Αιγαίο, 1987 and Article in Eleftherotypia) are farfetched. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Esterrio (talk • contribs) 16:44, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

---

Just a friendly suggestion. It may help to make small baby-step changes because it is harder to accept the reversal of major changes. Also suggest that neither of you makes any edits to the article for a couple of days. It's easier to think after a couple of days.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 16:54, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Guys, I'd bet good money that this is probably the same troll who has made a mess over several articles on Greek music and whose two-dozen IPs and named accounts have been repeatedly blocked. Certainly for someone who is interested in biology and loves snakes to create a new account and immediately and exclusively start edit-warring in the Greek music article of all places screams WP:SOCK. Constantine ✍ 17:05, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Certainly is an experienced editor for one with so few edits. Sounds like WP:DUCK.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 17:14, 27 June 2011 (UTC)"

The following IPs: [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7],[8],[9]; confer [10] and [11]) are the same user who keeps engaging in disruptive editing of several articles related to the Music of Greece. I suspect that he is a sockpuppet of the banned user User:Plouton2/User:Biggoboy. --Omnipaedista (talk) 14:03, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

---

My comment is this: In fact, most of the changes I have made to the article were nothing more than restoring content I had already inserted a year ago. Other users had improved it over the time, so it did reflect consensus to a great point. But, recently this content began to be removed unjustifiably by various single-purpose IP's. When I restored it I tried to improve whatever claim was poorly referenced or unreferenced by adding appropriate sources: admittedly for some issues it is hard to find a better reference than a newspaper article or a tertiary source (published by a respected publishing company or writer), but still these references are much more reliable than fan-created websites and blog posts.

The most controversial of my edits (of which almost all are based on references as opposed to the text they replaced) are unsurprisingly those dealing with the similarity of Greek music to Balkan and Middle Eastern Music.

1. Replaced the effectively non-sensical lede "The music of Greece is as diverse and celebrated as its history. Traditional Greek music has many similarities with Byzantine music, especially with the Mediterranean, Aegean and Cycladic Island music culture" (inserted by 193.92.242.152) with "Traditional Greek music has many similarities with Middle Eastern music, with its older songs being in Eastern-flavored minor scales with antecedents both in Byzantine music and in Turkish music".

• • citation: Simon Broughton, Mark Ellingham, Richard Trillo. World music: the rough guide. Africa, Europe and the Middle East, Volume 1, Rough Guides, 1999, p. 126

2. Removed poorly articulated sentence (inserted by Esterrio): "The Greeks were familiar, until the time of Greek war of independence, with Greek folk music folk songs and dances from Byzantine music and more specific with religious hymns more similar with Church music. [12] These genres have certainly reached a high degree of evolution. They were forms of a mono music that had many elements of ancient Greek origin but also, they had nothing to do with Western polyphonic music."

3. Replaced "By the beginning of the 20th century, music-cafés (καφέ-σαντάν) were popular in Greek cities like Constantinople and Smyrna. There, small groups of musicians from Greece." with "By the beginning of the 20th century, music-cafés (καφέ-σαντάν) were popular in Constantinople and Smyrna. There, small groups of musicians from Greek, Jewish, Armenian, and Roma backgrounds would sing and play improvised music."

• • citation: William Washabaugh, The passion of music and dance: body, gender and sexuality, Berg, 1998, p. 115
  • Λάμπρος Λιάβας, Μουσικές στο Αιγαίο, Έκδοση Υπουργείου Πολιτισμών και Αιγαίου, 1987: Τα λιμάνια [...] υπήρξαν ο χώρος όπου η μακραίωνη μουσική παράδοση του Αιγαίου πέρασε μέσα από τα φίλτρα και επιδράσεις ιταλικές, γαλλικές, ρουμάνικες, σέρβικες, τουρκικές, περσικές, αρμένικες και γύφτικες. Στα στενά της Σμύρνης έσμιγαν παλιές βυζαντινές μπαλάντες με ιταλικές καντσονέτες, γαλλικές μελωδίες του συρμού, ρουμάνικες χόρες, σέρβικοι χοροί και τούρκικα σαρκιά. Ενώ στα καφέ αμάν έλληνες μουσικοί συνόδευαν αρμένηδες τραγουδιστές και γύφτισσες χορεύτριες, μπροστά σ’ ένα κοινό που αντιπροσώπευε όλες τις φυλές της Ανατολικής Μεσογείου."

4. Re-added "The more cheerful version of laïkó, called elafró laïkó (ελαφρολαϊκό - elafrolaïkó 'light laïkó') which was represented by ensembles of singers/musicians such as the Katsamba Brothers duo, the Trio Kitara, the Trio Belcanto, and the Trio Athene. The genre's sound was an imitation of the then contemporary Cuban and Mexican folk music but also had elements from the early Athenian popular songs. Elafro was often used in musicals during the Golden Age of Greek cinema."

• • see also In2greece.com: Greek Music

5. Re-added: "The influence of oriental music on laïkó can be most strongly seen in 1960s indoyíftika (ινδογύφτικα) 'indian gypsy (songs)' (or ινδοπρεπή 'indian-like')."

• • see also: Article in Eleftherotypia by Giorgos Christodoulopoulos

6. Replaced "Skyládiko (or Skyládika) (Greek: Σκυλάδικο, meaning "doghouse") is a derogatory term to describe laiko music.The term derives from the Greek for dog (σκύλος, skylos), and "Skyladiko" means a doghouse in Greek. Traditional practices such as serving alcohol and throwing flowers are still maintained.In Greece called also bouzoukia and are divided into two main categories: those that feature live Greek music with artists, and the usual foreign music discotheques or bars as nightclubs in Greece. Their typical arrangement includes an elevated stage ("pista") where singers, dancers and musicians perform and has influences by Greek folk music." with "Skyládiko (or Skyládika) is the byname of the Greek variation of Arabesque and Balkan pop folk music. Skyládiko is akin to the Serbian Turbo-folk and Bulgarian Chalga, since all of them feature the same sort of balkan folk melodies (including Romani and Arabesque influences) combined with dance music, and share a distinctive kitch aesthetic. Traditional practices such as serving alcohol and throwing flowers are still maintained."

• • citation: Marcel Cornis-Pope, John Neubauer History of the literary cultures of East-Central Europe: junctures and disjunctures in the 19th and 20th centuries, John Benjamins Publishing Company, 2007, p. 335

7. Several other minor edits dealing with reducing content reduplication, removal of awkward phrasings, removal of POV statements (such as: "over the years until today,the aim of Greek music scene is only one: Quality Virtuoso musicians and expressive singers take every season,with more professionalism and love for what they do to entertain the Greek audience,to lure and to make it dance with the songs and music that everyone love.All this music effort take place in Europe and internationally"), and removal of non extant terms (like "Hellenic black metal").

Anyone who wishes to engage in constructive criticism is welcome to do so. --Omnipaedista (talk) 06:26, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Why so insistence...

• Hello,just a friendly notice. Being personally a witness on the previous dispute, Id like to mention too,that I can not understood the meaning of the insistence of user:Omnipaedista, to chance the well improved, over a long time by other users reliable sources of article Greek music, by giving obscure or farfetched unreliable sources from articles of newspapers.

As a Greek, I can also admit too, that the existed over a long time improved by the majority of users sources are well confirmed and most representative for the article of Greek music. Its also too bad, in a very objective and creative source, to being attempted a kind of misrepresentation by individual users. If you need some help, I ll be there. Thank You! - Aperitis25 (talk) 16:57, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

The point is that a large part of the article's content is uncited. Removal of uncited material in Wikipedia is legitimate. All the changes I have proposed are based on citations to respectable published sources (with the exception of just one newspaper article). I insist because I want to ensure that the article's content is neutral and verifiable. I yet have to see specific comments on the changes I have proposed. --Omnipaedista (talk) 09:00, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

You will never see specific comments on the changes you propose again and again and the reason is one and simple, even your citations were not farfetched from unsubstantiated sources or articles of newspapers,any chance of this article would be odd,this time. For example,what do you mean when you say you'd like to chance the edits? like: Traditional Greek music has many similarities with Byzantine music, especially with the Mediterranean, Aegean and Cycladic Island music culture. You can just read again the Greek music article : Greek music separates in two parts. Greek traditional music or dimotiki music and Byzantine music with more eastern listenings. These compositions, exist for more than a century and their origins are located in the Byzantine period and Greek antiquity. The origins of the Greek music can be traced back to the first centuries of Christianity due to the orchestric and pantomimic performances that prevailed after the third century A.D. As early as the first century A.D., ancient Greek tragedy, which at its peak of harmonious unity, incorporated poetry, music and dance, had seemed into its Greek component elements. There would be not better and well improved extension than this. Because you Becoming start tedious and im wondering why,perhaps you may have got confused with the articles of Iranian or even Turkish music,so if you like you can set your arguments in the appropriate TPs. Thank you! - Aperitis25 (talk) 20:07, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

The statements of the lede section in question are either poorly articulated ("eastern listenings", "origins located", "peak of harmonious unity", "component elements"), or ambiguous ("these compositions exist for more than a century"), or lacking appropriate citations (the dates given are to be confirmed by published sources), or downright wrong ("Greek music separates in two parts"). This version of the lede is effectively uninformative and misleading. I am seeking for consensus, but consensus can't be reached without addressing the issues at hand: the article as it stands now is in need of a lede section that appropriately summarizes its contents; it is also in need of a POV check. --Omnipaedista (talk) 21:46, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Noone is against the article,but you. Edit made no sence: The statements of the lede section in question are either poorly articulated ("eastern listenings", "origins located", "peak of harmonious unity", "component elements"), or ambiguous ("these compositions exist for more than a century"), or lacking appropriate citations (the dates given are to be confirmed by published sources), or downright wrong ("Greek music separates in two parts") is is not a meaningful sentence,thank you --Aperitis25 (talk) 08:09, 01 Jule 2011 (UTC)

1) The argument that the current version of the article is undisputed is baseless; just read the threads above. Edit warring over the same issues has occured before among other users. I would like an explanation why my recent edits got reverted only by anonymous IP's and single-purpose accounts suspected to be sock-puppets. Since the reverts involved the replacement of well-referenced material with uncited and poorly articulated claims, I can't see why these reverts don't constitute vandalism. Note also that the actual contributors to the article have chosen so far not to take part in the discussion.

2) I insist that the current lede is downright silly: it makes no sense from a grammatical point of view and it is factually disputed. Not to mention that it ridiculously cites another Wikipedia article and an unreliable website. Therefore, a) I am to replace the current lede with the original one (it was written much before any edit struggle began): "The musical legacy of Greece is as diverse as its history. Cypriot music has certain similarities to traditional Greek music, and their modern popular music scenes remain well-integrated."; b) I am to place a disputed-tag and a cleanup-tag in the article, since I still got no actual feedback addressing my criticism. If we (the contributors to the article) are unable to solve this dispute via consensus, I would like to suggest to take it to the Arbitration Committee. --Omnipaedista (talk) 09:23, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

The answer once again is one and simple, obscure or farfetched spurious unreliable sources, replaced by righteous well improved, over a long time by the majority of users. Note also that article Music of Greece, is a mirror to the WikiProject good articles like Music of Italy. Revert-warring against consensus implies vandalism - Aperitis25 (talk) 09:45, 01 Jule 2011 (UTC)

I'm afraid that this discussion is pointless. Your comments so far ("as a Greek", "perhaps you may have got confused with the articles of Iranian or even Turkish music", "revert-warring against consensus implies vandalism", "article Music of Greece, is a mirror to the WikiProject good articles like Music of Italy", "I can not understood the meaning of the insistence of user:Omnipaedista") miss the point and show that you are not entirely familiar with basic Wikipedia polcies: Wikipedia:CIVIL, Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, Wikipedia:NOTTRUTH, Wikipedia:Reliable sources, Wikipedia:Consensus, Wikipedia:Good faith, Wikipedia:Vandalism. --Omnipaedista (talk) 10:10, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Read what Wikipedia:Consensus, Wikipedia:Reliable sources, Wikipedia:CIVIL,Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, Wikipedia:Good faith,Wikipedia:Vandalism and Wikipedia:NOTTRUTH is. contributor of the article: Esterrio (talk) 11:22, 01 July 2011 (UTC)

consensus

Why Greek music would not be exactly what is about, for example at laiko section: like this [13] origin of laiko] or [14] or like this [15] Greek folk music and Greek music origins] and must be apsolutely like this fortuitous article from propably foolish or anti-nation writers of some fortutious newspapers like this one?: newspaper's specific opinion ? So rv.

1) Please don't remove sections from the talk-page without good reason. 2) Note that a section containing referenced criticism on the specific culture "accompanying" a specific music genre used to exist or exists in some wikiarticles (see for example here) or here; not documenting criticism constitutes lack of neutrality. 3) The books by Papanikolaou and Dimaras seem to be very informative, but the book about Greek islands is completely unreliable.--Omnipaedista (talk) 11:49, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

The issue is that the books I gave as examples for laiko, are far away more tremendously authoritative, than your minority motivation... -Basstonic (talk) 11:59, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

I invite you to get over vain accusations ("anti-nation writers," "minority motivation," etc) and actually edit the article or at least propose specific edits. No one will contest that these two sources are unreliable. --Omnipaedista (talk) 12:41, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

The articles are verified well and consensus is clearly Against this (newspaper). The end- Aperitis25 (talk) 13:15, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

I apsolutely agree with Aperitis25 -Basstonic (talk) 13:36, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Problem with M.E.m. template

Everything is fine with the article, except a problem with the "template of Middle eastern music". Greece and Greek music, has never been or considered part of the Middle East (?). So im going to remove it, if there's no agreement, thanks. --Phallussok (talk) 21:27, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Ok, Since there is no agreement Im removing it --Phallussok (talk) 21:40, 13 September 2011 (UTC)