Talk:Musa of Parthia

Thermusa's Origin And Sources Cited

It makes no sense (at present, at least) to cite a page on Cleopatra Selene II as a source for Musa.

It also seems odd that Augustus would gift a concubine (a slave?) to someone as important as the King of Kings. Further, as I understand it Phraates sent his sons (and some grandsons) to Rome as his hostages, around the same time as Musa came to Parthia, so we would need a source to back up her having a direct hand in the matter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fantini (talk • contribs) 02:01, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

I am somewhat convinced by the argument that she was a Daughter of Julius Caesar and Cleopatra. But I don't buy the other claims of Ralph Elis.--JaredMithrandir (talk) 22:59, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

Bust vs coin

@HistoryofIran: Found some more information about the bust vs coin "controversy".[1] - LouisAragon (talk) 17:27, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks @LouisAragon:, I added a reference to Franz Cumont's article. @HistoryofIran: I think the picture of the bust should still be in the article, with a caption saying something along the lines of "A Greek bust initially thought be that of Musa, now in the The National Museum of Iran". T8612 (talk) 20:01, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Yes good idea - I've added it now. --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:04, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Musa of Parthia/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Gog the Mild (talk · contribs) 23:28, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Might as well take the last one in this series. I will have the time to do it. Noah^Talk 23:28, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Is there anything that can be added to expand this article? It is a level 5 vital article. I would not feel comfortable passing it in its current state, so I am asking for another set of eyes. Could someone more familiar with the history and royalty subjects please take a look? It just seems to be quite lacking in content for an vital article. Noah^Talk 03:27, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

Ngl, I've no idea what a vital 5 article is. She is an impressive figure thats for certain, but not really a significant one. Not much is generally known about Parthian-era figures unfortunately, mainly due their keenness on oral history and Sasanian efforts to erase knowledge of their existence. If I remember correctly there is perhaps still a little bit more to add (i will take a look at it tommorow, well technically today). HistoryofIran (talk)

If that's the case, you may need to take that up and get consensus to remove it from the vital list. A person more familiar with the history subjects should be able to clarify more. Im asking for a second opinion on the importance of this article from an expert. Noah^Talk 04:02, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

Hurricane Noah, I can't speak to the comprehensiveness of the article, but will note there are level five articles of similar length that have been promoted to GA. See Diadumenian. I'd recommend reading through the article and seeing if it leaves you with any questions. If it does, put them up here, and HistoryofIran will either let you know history doesn't tell us or add them to the article. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 00:45, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

The article being a vital article or not is irrelevant to a GAN decision - it is not in the criteria. The article seems to contain all of the sources one would expect, with the possible exception of Leonardo Gregoratti's Parthian Women in Flavius Josephus. I am not convinced, on a very quick skim, that this would add a lot to what is already there, but going through it and at worst adding it under Further reading should at least nail any doubts.

Hurricane Noah: if you are feeling uncomfortable with this one, I am familiar with assessing articles from this time and place and would be happy to take over the review if you wished. If not, Eddie891's advice above is sound. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:38, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

@Gog the Mild: Feel free to take over the review. Noah^Talk 19:59, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Cheers Hurricane Noah. Hi HistoryofIran, could you have a look at the relevant bits of the article above, which is from the Cambridge History of Iran, add any bits to the article which you think appropriate - which may be none - and give me a ping? Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:41, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

• No alt text for the infobox image.

Hiya, sure thing, I'll look at it tommorow (technically today). --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:06, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, been slacking a bit on this one. I'll be sure to look at it in this weekend. --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:15, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

@Gog the Mild: Added a small bit of information, not of the utmost importance, but yeah. I've been looking at sources, and don't really find anything else of importance. --HistoryofIran (talk) 21:05, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, as I said above, the only source I could find that you weren't already using that might possibly be useful was Gregoratti. I'll have a further look at this over the next couple of days. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:03, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

Alt text for infobox image sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 21:40, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

• Be consistent in your use of alt text.

Oh, I completely forgot about that one. The link doesn't work for me. But I'm assuming it's the same file as this? [2] I'll have a look at it .--HistoryofIran (talk) 22:21, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

That's the one. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:32, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

And another which may be of use [3]. Gog the Mild (talk) 09:22, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

I think it's fine now in terms of the amount of information imho. She is a very obscure figure. --HistoryofIran (talk) 01:39, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

As may well be, but "it addresses the main aspects of the topic" still applies. OK, let's get the show on the road.

I have done a little copy editing which you will want to check.

• Be consistent in your use of alt text.
• "Musa was an Italian slave-girl who was given to the Parthian monarch Phraates IV (r. 37 BC – 2 BC) as a gift by the Roman emperor Augustus (r. 27 BC – 14 AD) after a treaty in 20 BC in which the Romans returned Phraates IV his kidnapped son in return for the lost legionary standards taken at Carrhae in 53 BC, as well as any surviving prisoners of war." Whew! That's a bit much for an opening sentence. Any chance of breaking it into two or three? And maybe 'returned to Phraates IV'?

Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 21:33, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

• "as a gift by the Roman emperor Augustus (r. 27 BC – 14 AD) after a treaty in 20 BC" Fine, but do we know just when this happened? Or at least have a range for it?

Source/ref added to help clarify this. Amitchell125 (talk) 22:09, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

• "Emma Strugnell (2008) has suggested that Augustus' choice to send Musa may have been an attempt to" The grammar is off a little there. Maybe 'Emma Strugnell (2008) has suggested that Augustus' may have sent Musa in an attempt to' or similar?
• "She further adds that "Augustus could potentially launch a punitive invasion against Parthia, with the probable aim of converting it into a Roman province." " No doubt, but how is this relevant to what goes before or comes after?
• "giving birth to Phraataces (Phraates V)" Is it known when?

Kinda, added. --HistoryofIran (talk) 13:41, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

• "Musa had Phraates IV poisoned and made herself along with Phraates V the co-rulers of the empire." Suggest 'of the Parthian Empire'.
• "Phraates V's later reverse coins" I think you mean 'The reverse of Phraates V's later coins'.
• Caption: "Coin of Phraates V with Musa, minted at Seleucia" Suggest adding 'showing his mother, Musa, on the reverse.
• "typical on Parthian coin mints" Is there a reason for this phraseology? Or does it mean 'typical on Parthian coins'?

The latter. Fixed. --HistoryofIran (talk) 19:09, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

• "Furthermore, the title of basilissa ("queen") is also given to her, which was not necessarily only used by the wife of the king in the Hellenistic era, but also other royal women" Sorry, I really don't understand this. You established in the previous section that she was one of the queens of the previous ruler. What, if anything, is different about this title?

Phraates V continued to gave the same title or gave the title again to his mother after Phraates IV's death. Clarified. Σανμοσα^{The Trve Lawe of free Monarchies} 10:00, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

• "There is coinage of Musa with her son Phraates V" You have said that in the previous paragraph.

Text amended. Amitchell125 (talk) 21:04, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

• "implying that they were at least co-rulers" How does the existence of coinage imply this? Is there something about the coinage which implies it? If so, what?

Seems clarified after Amitchell125's edits. Σανμοσα^{The Trve Lawe of free Monarchies} 09:50, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

• "1st-century Roman historian Josephus even notes allegations that Musa married her son." Start the sentence with 'The'; delete "even".
• I suggest making the material on Musa and Phraates V's alleged marriage a separate paragraph.

Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 21:19, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

• "After a short period of ruling" → 'After a short rule'.
• "expelled them both from the throne" "expelled" → 'deposed'. And in the lead.

More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:08, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

• Gregoratti: you need to specify the work which this article is a chapter of. (Here.)

Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 21:16, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

• Cumont: include the OCLC - 1014584127.

Fixed. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:59, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

• Kia: specify publisher location.
• Rezakhani: specify the page range of the article.

Gog the Mild (talk) 21:54, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran: Nudge. Gog the Mild (talk) 10:40, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Hi HistoryofIran, are you still working on this, or is it one of those that is just not going to happen? Gog the Mild (talk) 17:02, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Hi Gog, unfortunately exams are keeping me very busy atm. I would love to finish this article when I have some more time on my hands. --HistoryofIran (talk) 02:01, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

HistoryofIran, that's fine. Could you check in by, or before, the end of the month. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 11:00, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Will do. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:59, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

@Gog the Mild: How is the current status? Σανμοσα^{The Trve Lawe of free Monarchies} 01:43, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Sanmosa, I am still waiting for HistoryofIran to respond to my comments from April. Their last comment suggests that they are busy and I have requested an update by the end of June. The article is in pretty good shape and I am loath to fail it unless I really have to. Gog the Mild (talk) 09:55, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

@Gog the Mild: Maybe I may respond to some of them. For the sentence "Furthermore, the title of basilissa ("queen") is also given to her, which was not necessarily only used by the wife of the king in the Hellenistic era, but also other royal women", I have noticed that it also appears in another GA Phraates V (Musa's son), however the text is describing the reverse of Phraates V's later coins. I bet there may be better presentations if the current presentation is inappropriate. Σανμοσα^{The Trve Lawe of free Monarchies} 11:58, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

The sentence "Musa was an Italian slave-girl who was given to the Parthian monarch Phraates IV (r. 37 BC – 2 BC) as a gift by the Roman emperor Augustus (r. 27 BC – 14 AD) after a treaty in 20 BC in which the Romans returned Phraates IV his kidnapped son in return for the lost legionary standards taken at Carrhae in 53 BC, as well as any surviving prisoners of war." also appears in the article of Phraates V, and so I bet that when Musa was given as a gift is either unknown or just after the treaty in 20 BC mentioned above (as Phraates V was born in 19 BC circa). Σανμοσα^{The Trve Lawe of free Monarchies} 12:05, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

HistoryofIran, how are the exams going? Do you have time to look at the remaining issues yet? This has been open for three months. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:05, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Give me a few more days, if I can't do it by then yeah this is rip. --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:35, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran: Only 2 issues left. You should thank Amitchell125. Σανμοσα^{The Trve Lawe of free Monarchies} 09:52, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Comment: after reading for several times, I find the sentence 'She further adds that "Augustus could potentially launch a punitive invasion against Parthia, with the probable aim of converting it into a Roman province."' not so relevant to the content, unless the source (or other sources) gives the reason for Augustus not invading Parthia and just sending Musa there. Σανμοσα^{The Trve Lawe of free Monarchies} 09:58, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Now only one single issue left. I've just solved the another one. Σανμοσα^{The Trve Lawe of free Monarchies} 10:00, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Hi HistoryofIran, I can confirm that, thanks to the generous support of Amitchell125 and Sanmosa there is just one issue outstanding, in green above. Any chance that you could address it in a timely manner? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gog the Mild (talk • contribs) 19:28, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

What I personally think is that if no sources give the reason for Augustus not invading Parthia and just sending Musa there, the sentence may be deleted. Σανμοσα^{The Trve Lawe of free Monarchies} 05:54, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Yes, that is allowed by policy. But as the assessor I feel that it would be inappropriate for me to remove it. Gog the Mild (talk) 09:59, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the help guys. Yes, I believe I can quickly fix this issue this week, cross my heart. --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:08, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

HistoryofIran, sorry to come on all tough, but this has been dragging for far too long. All that is needed is for you to delete the sentence in question. Or, respond in any way. If there is no further movement by the end of Friday, I am going to close this. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:43, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Nah it's more than fair, I've not managed to keep my word for quite some time now, I should be the one apologizing. Just can't put my focus even on small issues like this atm. I've removed the sentence. Thanks to everyone for helping and being very patient. --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:20, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Very true. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:38, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

Marriage to Phraates V

Josephus' allegation can be verified here: [4]:

About this time died Phraates, king of the Parthians, by the treachery of Phraataces his son, upon the occasion following: When Phraates had had legitimate sons of his own, he had also an Italian maid-servant, whose name was Thermusa, who had been formerly sent to him by Julius Caesar, among other presents. He first made her his concubine; but he being a great admirer of her beauty, in process of time having a son by her, whose name was Phraataces, he made her his legitimate wife, and had a great respect for her. Now she was able to persuade him to do any thing that she said, and was earnest in procuring the government of Parthia for her son; but still she saw that her endeavors would not succeed, unless she could contrive how to remove Phraates's legitimate sons [out of the kingdom;] so she persuaded him to send those his sons as pledges of his fidelity to Rome; and they were sent to Rome accordingly, because it was not easy for him to contradict her commands. Now while Phraataces was alone brought up in order to succeed in the government, he thought it very tedious to expect that government by his father's donation [as his successor]; he therefore formed a treacherous design against his father, by his mother's assistance, with whom, as the report went, he had criminal conversation also.

I would say this is more than a rumour, but at the same time less than absolute certainty. It is certainly taken at face value by some scholars. Pointing out that this claim, if true, would be highly exceptional for Iranian culture does not really help, because Musa's whole biography seems quite exceptional. Yaan (talk) 14:46, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

I just quoted what the historian Bigwood said. --HistoryofIran (talk) 18:23, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

The notion that Julius Ceasar would give a "maid servant" or "slave girl" as a gift to Rome's greatest rival and that King Phraates IV would make her the queen of the Persian Empire is nothing more than ridiculous propaganda. The problem with historians is they tend to view anything that's documented as the gospel truth, no matter who or where it comes from. First of all, the chronology is wrong. JC died in 44BC while Phraates IV reigns begins 7 years later, in 37BC. If the event occurred, it's more likely that it was Augustus, not JC. One should never take a Roman/Jewish propagandist like Josephus, at his word. In any event, it's a good example of racial/ethnic, supremacist, propaganda that a Persian king would make the lowest Roman woman, his queen. However, other events would suggest the possibility that Cleopatra VII was pregnant at the time of JC's death. While there is no direct evidence for this, the Roman noble/historian, Cicero, talks about the tension in Rome when Cleopatra made her escape to Egypt. Referring to the miscarriage of Cassius' wife, he then makes the comment, "I hope it may prove true of the queen and that Caesar of hers (De regina velim atque etiam de Caesare illo)". But a short time later, that concern vanished. If Cleopatra had given birth to a boy, then there would have been a rival claim to Julius Ceasar's estate and Octavian/Augustus' claim would be in doubt. However, if it was a girl, then no such claim could be made. After the war with Cleopatra and Antony, Augustus brought all of her children (except Ceasarion) to Rome where they were then raised by his family. Musa was not included in the records because to do so would have been problematic for the Julio/Claudian rule of the Roman Empire. It is more likely the case, that Augustus gave Musa (who's real name was Thea Musa Ourania) in marriage to King Phraates IV as a peace offering in order to form a détente between Rome and Persia (unlike his predecessors, Augustus never went to war against Persia). Furthermore, if you look at the bust of Musa (Thermusa) and the busts of Julius Caesar and Cleopatra VII there is a striking resemblance. Pvsalsedo (talk) 23:15, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

References