Talk:Murder of Li Sin-heng

Title of this article

@SBS6577P: The criteria for the title of an article gives five characteristics of a good title:

• Recognizability – The title is a name or description of the subject, [and subject area] that readers will recognize.
• Naturalness – A title usually conveys what the subject is actually called in English.
• Precision – The title is unambiguously.
• Concision – The title is no longer than necessary, (and no shorter either.)
• Consistency – The title is consistent with the pattern of similar articles' titles. As a result there are different naming conventions for articles about people, events and murders.

An approximate translation of the tile of the corresponding Chinese Wikipedia article is "Murder [on] Citybus No. 118 in Chai Wan", which seems to have influenced how this article is titled in English as Chai Wan Citybus murder. However, this English title conveys the subtle and unintended impression of an event that resulted in the murder of a busload of people, or people being murdered by a bus that is not conveyed by the Chinese title. Since one cannot murder a bus, the article could be referring to murder of the passenger(s) on the bus or the use of the bus as a weapon to murder people. Article titles should not convey these unintended meanings. However this article might be named on Chinese Wikipedia, the English language naming conventions need to be applied to English language articles. English language sources do not refer to this murder by the given title, even though the Chinese language sources might. This implies the given title is not a recognizable common name. Applying the naming conventions for events requires adding a year (2017) to the article title, but that is hardly an improvement. If one applies the naming conventions for murders, one arrives at "Murder of Li Sin-heng". Google searches on this and other potential titles indicate that this is the most precise and concise title that is consistent with the names of other Wikipedia articles about murders of individual people. Your thoughts before I rename the article? - Cameron Dewe (talk) 04:27, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

In that case, feel free to go ahead and move the article & make the necessary changes, though I suggest the current name be kept as a redirect. S5A-0043^Talk 04:32, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Page now moved to "Murder of Li Sin-heng". I have left a redirect from "Chai Wan Citybus murder" and also added a redirect from "Murder on Citybus No. 118 in Chai Wan", as alternative titles. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 05:51, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 20:23, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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The bus on which the murder took place

• ... that on this day six years ago, a murder took place onboard a double-decker bus (pictured) in Hong Kong? Source: https://www.nst.com.my/world/2017/09/280675/hong-kong-woman-stabbed-death-bus-dispute-fellow-passenger
  • ALT1: ... that nearly 6 years after a murder took place onboard a bus (pictured) in Hong Kong, the same bus was involved in another accident while operating on the same bus route? Source: Murder: See above, accident: https://www.hk01.com/%E7%AA%81%E7%99%BC/928363/%E9%95%B7%E6%B2%99%E7%81%A3%E6%9D%B1%E4%BA%AC%E8%A1%97%E9%81%8B%E9%AD%9A%E8%BB%8A%E6%92%BC%E5%9F%8E%E5%B7%B4-%E5%8F%B8%E6%A9%9F%E8%A2%AB%E5%9B%B0%E8%BB%8A%E5%85%A7%E7%94%B1%E6%B6%88%E9%98%B2%E6%95%91%E5%87%BA (you can tell it's the same bus by seeing the fleet number and plate)
  • Reviewed: NA (3rd DYK nomination)
  • Comment: Would like to request this DYK to be on Sep 16th if approved (murder took place on this day 6 years ago) and if main hook is chosen. If ALT1 is picked instead any date is fine.

Moved to mainspace by SBS6577P (talk). Self-nominated at 11:51, 10 August 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Murder of Li Sin-heng; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

• Ok I'm going to be honest, I completely forgot about this nom. However since it's been way too long, and I honestly have other commitments to focus on, I wish to withdraw this nomination. Thank you. S5A-0043^Talk 11:32, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
  • Are you sure you want to withdraw this?! I've been looking at this hoping someone would review it, because I want to promote it really badly, but if no one's willing to review I'll do so myself so someone else can. Vaticidalprophet 05:36, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
    • Well, my intention was to get this on Sep 16th to match the date of the incident, which did not happen. I got my end-of-year exams coming up from next week onwards until October 11th, and I'll probably be less active on WP until then. Now that you mentioned it I'll cancel the withdrawal and hopefully someone or maybe you can review it before Sunday, but if a new hook is needed I'll confirm my withdrawal because I don't think I'll have the time to think of a new one. I'll put an ALT2 in the meantime:
    • ALT2 ... that the perpetrator of a murder onboard a bus (pictured) once described meeting his victim, who was his girlfriend, to be "like winning the mark six"?
      So basically, if neither ALT1 or ALT2 gets approved I'll withdraw completely. S5A-0043^Talk 11:49, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: @SBS6577P: Good article. AGF on chinese sources. Onegreatjoke (talk) 20:23, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Pictures?

It's a little odd that this article about a murder has only one picture: of the bus where the attack happened, taken four years later. Aren't there pictures of the killer and victim? Piledhigheranddeeper (talk) 17:03, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

I would add them, except I didn't find photos of the victim on Google, through the Chinese name or English one. The killer did have some pictures around, but most of them are either side shots or he had a mask on (not ideal in identifying him), no mug shots were released by the police, and I don't know whether the HK prison system allows photos of prisoners to be taken within the prison compound, because if yes then the photo would fail WP:NFCC #1. Also I originally intended to add one pic of the scene immediately after but I wasn't sure whether it would satisfy NFCC as well, so I didn't do it, though if someone thinks otherwise they can WP:BOLDly do so. S5A-0043^Talk 04:11, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Pled guilty?

The legal proceedings section says that he pled guilty (on 20 Oct 2020) to manslaughter but not murder, but then that the prosecutors rejected that, and then talks about the case going to trial. Maybe the HK judicial system works differently, but here in the US, if you plead guilty, that's generally the end of the case. You can plead to one of multiple charges (with the rest still being potentially taken to trial), but then the prosecutors can't reject your plea to the charge, only the judge can do that. They can decide to still take it to trial for the charge they're alleging, but that's not the same thing. I guess I'm saying that there might be a way that what it's describing could happen in US courts, but there are certainly clearer ways to explain it, such as saying he tried to plead guilty but wasn't allowed to plead to what he wanted to (if that's the case) or that the prosecutors didn't drop the rest of the case when he pled guilty, but still took him to trial for murder (if that's what happened). Basically, we need more clarity. Cromwellt|talk|contribs 20:06, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

The text came from here which was cited in the article:

惟控方不接納被告的說法，因車上的閉路電視片段可見被告行事正常，認為他是有意殺害死者。(Google Translate: However, the prosecution did not accept the defendant's statement because the CCTV footage in the (bus) showed that the defendant was acting normally and believed that he intended to kill the deceased.)

I paraphrased "did not accept" to rejected during the translation process, though maybe that's an error on my part in accidentally changing the meaning. If you think did not accept is better I suppose you can change it. S5A-0043^Talk 04:20, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Is the number plate notable?

Lovingboth (talk) 19:26, 13 October 2023 (UTC)