Talk:Morton's toe

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This page has been linked to Celtic toe merge suggestion, probably by mistake.

Please feel free to comment. This celtic toe is not strictly Morton's toe. Its an article dedicated to the Celtic People and the shape of their feet. It is also related to English feet, and podiatry but not to morton's toe in general. What further citations and references would you prefer to see?

Seems there is an ovious interest in both Genealogy sites and basic people's curiosity. Read each forum post, er okay... read a few and you will find about 150 genuine people interested in reading about the celtic toe, and how to decorate their new found conversation piece. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BrittonLaRoche (talk • contribs)

It was not a mistake. Please stop removing the tag until discussion has been had. IrishGuy ^talk 01:20, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

"If the big toe and the second toe next to it are the same length, the second toe will be longer than the big toe, as shown in the photo." So... if the big toe and the second toe are the same length, then the second toe will be longer than the big toe.  Is this badly written, or am I missing something obvious? I came to the article to learn something about the subject, but the first paragraphs leave my head spinning a bit.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.192.39.121 (talk) 21:04, 12 December 2013 (UTC) 

Celtic Toe is Not Morton's Toe

According to Dr. Jackson's Definition of the Celtic foot, the second metatarsal does not need to be longer than the Hallux. This is the primary difference between the Celtic toe and Morton's toe. With Morton's toe the length of the second metatarsal must be longer than the Hallux. With the Cetlic toe, it need only break the steep angle from the first toe to the fith, giving the foot a more rounded appearance.-— Preceding unsigned comment added by BrittonLaRoche (talk • contribs) 01:27, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

References

• http://www.archaeology.co.uk/articles/features/footloose-in-archaeology.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.142.182.240 (talk) 08:24, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
• "British feet - podiatrist/archaeologist Phyllis Jackson distinguishes Saxon feet from Celtic feet" Discover Magazine, June, 1996, Retrieved June, 1996
• "Archaeology UK Website"
• "Examples of Romano-British and Saxon feet". Phyllis Jackson, Archaeology UK Website, 1995
• "Footloose in Archaeology" Phyllis Jackson, Current Archaeology 144, August 1995, Retrieved August, 1995-— Preceding unsigned comment added by BrittonLaRoche (talk • contribs) 01:27, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

See Also

• Celtic
• Celtic knot
• Hallux
• Morton's toe
• Toe ring-— Preceding unsigned comment added by BrittonLaRoche (talk • contribs) 01:27, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Foot Vs Toe

The difference noted by Phyllis Jackson between the Celtic Foot and the Saxon Foot refers to the "steep angle between the first toe to the fith" on the Saxon foot. Clearly mortons toe, the second toe or any toe greater than or equal to the Big toe breaks the angle. If there is any case of any toe being longer than the second toe... I'd like to hear about it. Never seen such a thing. So by simple inference the celtic toe is related to the celtic foot. Its the only toe capable of breaking a steep angle from the first to the fith. Is it not?

Also worth noting is the genetic dominance of Morton's toe, as it is really a shortening of the Big toe. Thus Morton's toe probably plays a role in the celtic foot and toe. It is different from mortons toe in that not every one with Mortons toe is of celtic descent. But all celts have a shortened big toe. --Britton LaRoche 13:35, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

"If there is any case of any toe being longer than the second toe... I'd like to hear about it", really? My big toe is longer, so is my son's, I think it's quite common. Note that all the Morton's/Celtic toe descriptions seem to be referring to digit extent profie, rather than digit length (cf Peters et al. 2002 American Journal of Physical Anthropology 117:209-217) so I use the same measure. I have seen absolutely no mention of any study of the genetic basis of Morton's toe. Similar claims about Mendelian traits underlying differences in relative finger lengths (made in the 1950) turned out to be completely wrong. I'd be shocked if there's a Mendelian trait determining relative toe length, but not relative finger length. Pete.Hurd 13:58, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Good point Pete! I'd also hazzard a guess that you are not of Celtic descent. The point of the Celtic toe is that the second toe is the only toe that can be of near the same size ( correction same digit extent - Will update article ) as the big toe. No other (remaining toe 3,4 or 5) is near the same digit extent or greater than the second toe. --Britton LaRoche 14:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Another good point, we can drop the relative finger lengths, because they are not consistent with a dominant trait like Mortons toe. The only thing that can be considered related in the genetic disorder listed on the Hallux page, leading to brachydactyly [1] [2] Makes perfect sense as to why it would be a toe length and not a finger length. Morton's toe is not related to brachydactyly, but it is a dominant genetic trait, and there fore and established scientific fact, where as finger digit length is not. --Britton LaRoche 14:48, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Further Evidence of the Celtic Toe

Searching under "Saxon foot" I hit upon further evidence of the celtic toe Achaeology UK Here we can see the shortened big toe giving prominance to the Celtic Toe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BrittonLaRoche (talk • contribs)

It's not further evidence: it's just a different page in the same already-multiply-cited article, Footloose in Archaeology by Phyllis Jackson, which appears twice at www.archaeology.co.uk (here and here). Tearlach 00:52, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Expanded

I've expanded and clarified things a bit: seems there was a confusion between two different Mortons who described foot problems. Tearlach 19:33, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

good job, especially thre online mendelian inheritance in man link! Pete.Hurd 02:21, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Incidence in different populations

References to be verified (expanded) before adding to article.

• 11.3/7.8% of males (right/left) and 7.6/4.6% of females, Mukherjee, D. P. & Rao, V. R. (1975) Association between digital formulae of hands and feet. Indian journal of physical anthropology and human genetics 1: 1-8.
• US Caucasians (Cleveland) 24% Kaplan, A. R. (1964) Genetics of relative toe lengths. Acta Genet. Med. Gemellol. 13:295-304.
• Male Swedes 2.95%, Romanus, T. (1949) Heredity of a long second toe. Hereditas 35: 651-652, 1949.
• male Ainu 90% Kaplan?

Pete.Hurd 02:39, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks (and also for the preceding comment). The overall figure of 10% comes from the Kirkup reference. Tearlach 10:25, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Inbreeding?

Folklore suggests that one with Morton's toe has inbread relations in their family

Source? Tearlach 10:54, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, it's congenital, rare, and based on a recessive gene, so while not proof of incest, it may certainly be considered as a strong hint.--Cancun771 12:04, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't think geneticist's think of even 3% as "rare" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.62.203.42 (talk) 15:36, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

It's actually a dominant trait. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.251.104.10 (talk) 17:07, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

On one foot or two?

I have this on only one foot, though you'd have to look closely to notice. On my right foot, the second toe is ever so slightly longer than the big toe; on the other foot, it's distinctly shorter. I didn't even notice this myself until a couple of years ago. How common is this compared to having it on both feet? - furrykef (Talk at me) 07:21, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

You sure you haven't broken one of the toes in question at some point? This isn't necessarily noticed; it hurts but people who don't suspect a fracture tend not to visit a doctor. The healing process might than have influenced toe length.--Cancun771 17:00, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Unsourced claims

I've moved some unsourced claims here from the main article

• Cleopatra was known to have this, and many consider this trait to be a sign of beauty.
• Podiatrist/archaeologist Phyllis Jackson has interpreted it as a characteristically Celtic toe, as opposed to a Saxon toe.
• The French call it ... believing it to be a sign of intelligence.
• There is also a belief in cultures (such as in Brazil) that women who have a bigger second toe, means that they are authoritarian. It is believed that when the women marries then she is going to boss her husband.

and look forward to someone turning up some reliable sources. Pete.Hurd 05:23, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Celtic toes again

I've removed the celtic toe thing again. No WP:RS sources are provided to support this terminology. I note that the Discover article clearly states that the Celtic feet had D2 almost equal in extent, but still shorter than D1. Also I sources above (here) show that D2 > D1 is clearly present in populations, e.g. rural India, that refute the assertion that this trait indicates Celtic heritage. Pete.Hurd (talk) 04:16, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

TMJ

I'll not remove it as it seems credited (though no posted source and I don't care enough to hunt it down), but this: "The compromised posture combined with the torques created by internal leg rotation is often the cause of both joint and muscle pain ranging from knee and hip pain to low and general back pain, shoulder and neck pain, and is also associated with headaches, and TMJ dysfunction." TMJ? While it seems logical that your gait can affect your muskuloskeletal system up through the back, I can't see how this would affect one's TMJ. How and what you do while you sleep would have much more effect. Just throwing this out there. 217.166.94.1 (talk) 08:22, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

The last section sounds like a pitch for plastic surgery or whatever the author mentioned is selling. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.162.21.208 (talk) 08:56, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

The msuculoskeletal dysfunction section of this article is pure quackery. My dad is a physician. Reading this to him elicited a visceral reaction, unprintable in this forum. Citations or no, the claims in this section need to be toned down greatly. A.k.a. (talk) 19:21, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Then do it, or show your dad how :). There is a rather extensive self-published page which repeats this claim (and has some nice images which I wish they'd upload), but I don't have a source that meets Wikipedia sourcing requirements. I've templated it for medrefs. HLHJ (talk) 20:12, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Alternate Name:Goddess Toe(s)

I've seen this called Goddess Toes, probably in reference to classical statuary which is typically touched (wearing down the second toe of the statue) for luck.
~ender 2010-01-23 12:32:AM MST —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.226.19.194 (talk)

I Humbly Offer My Own Left Foot

For Science!

It seems I am unable to upload files as I am not a confirmed user quite yet. However, I have taken a picture of my left foot to help this article (as I have Morton's Toe). It is a much better example than the second picture on the original article - this second picture could be debated on whether or not the subject actually has Morton's Toe.

Mine is clearly visible, yet not as extreme as the first picture.

Feel free to use it!

Edit: Oh no someone took my picture away.

http://i.imgur.com/qtpED.jpg JRockets☯ 17:35, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

I support using this picture instead of the current one. Because the current one is, in a word, gross. (The first impression the reader gets when landing on this page is that "Morton's toe" is some kind of decaying disease.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.237.213.4 (talk) 14:17, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, thank you! I thought exactly the same thing. I was about to take a picture of my own foot but checked here first. I uploaded Jrockets's pic and updated the page. Tocharianne (talk) 19:12, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

It is lovely. There are some x-rays on Wikimedia that seem to my uneducated eye to give clearer examples of Morton's toe than the current image -- could we have an expert volunteer to pick one out, please? A photo of the characteristic callus in the middle of the ball of the foot might also be nice. HLHJ (talk) 22:17, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Medical jargon

This page is more or less useless for a person without medical training. Is it possible to use layman's terms for some of this information? The medical jargon probably has a place here too, but the average person coming here will want to hear the basics of what it is without the fancy names for the parts of the foot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.170.53.98 (talk) 18:30, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

It would seem that part of the problem is that there are no "layman's terms" for much of what is being discussed here. As a result, "simplifying" some of the medical terminology would give us long, convoluted sentences. That said, it does get bogged down at points. Perhaps if we define some terms the first time they are used, then stick with the medical term (as we've done with hallux (big toe))? - SummerPhD (talk) 21:03, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

I have to agree that jargon is a problem here. I'm reasonably intelligent (Ph.D. Chemistry) but, not having taken A&P, the first two paragraphs are indecipherable. If jargon cannot be avoided then define the jargon. Perhaps a diagram or two with arrows to the various parts, or just add labels to the existing image? Otherwise a very good article. (72.152.176.117 (talk) 12:57, 16 January 2012 (UTC) Dean Turner)

I also agree the first two paragraphs are convoluted unless you have experience in anatomy or medicine. May I suggest starting by replacing "metatarsal" with "toe?" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.4.188.128 (talk) 16:36, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

I changed the fparagraphs mentioned, introducing the anatomical terms in some sort of context and adding a diagram. There is now some repetition of the first paragraph, but hopefully there is no ambiguity and it's easier to understand. HLHJ (talk) 22:13, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

"Roman Toe"

Through school growing up in Sydney, Australia and in London, England, I was taught that this was called a 'roman toe', on the grounds that it is frequently depicted in Roman sculptures and art, but not in other cultures so prominantly. I noted that one editor mentioned 'goddess toe' as an alternative, this would stand to reason as derivative on the grounds that most sculptures and art in the Roman era would have been of gods and goddesses.

I was quite confused when I found this article, and more so when I read about 'Celtic toe', but I feel that perhaps the article should be renamed or RT should be strongly referenced on the grounds that 1. the Roman's predate Mortan, and 2. whilst not the majority of Celt's have this deformity (deformity?) nor did Roman's, the vast majority of Roman art depicts the foot in this manner.

I'm sure if it's contemporary (90's) school curriculum study I'm not the only person to remember this, and there'd be references out there to it that are usable. But I ask that another--more familiar to the topic--editor look into this. It may not be the first academic instance of it being named either, hell it may be Babylonian toe for all we know, but it sure as hell predates Mortan, and the Celt reference is quite ambiguous. Anyone willing to help do a bit of digging on this one?

Also, just googled, Roman toe lists Morton's toe as the #1 hit, however there are 17,300,000+ instances of "Roman toe" (quotations included) versus 108,000 instances of "Morton's toe" so I'm definitely not going crazy! :P 60.225.67.145 (talk) 01:08, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Hatnote

Apparently Morton's neuroma is sometime also called "Morton's foot", which redirects here, so I added a disambiguating hatnote for anyone landing here by mistake. HLHJ (talk) 18:06, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Shoes

FTA: In shoe-wearing cultures, Morton's toe can be problematic.

I wonder if this is a big problem in practice. In extreme cases, sure, but probably because of the idealisation of Greek toes most confection shoes seem to have a Greek profile and people with Egyptian toes tend to buy shoes that are technically a bit oversized.

(Note: I'm using the terms Greek and Egyptian here solely out of convention.)

IP address 77.61.180.106, I take your point about pointyshoes. Unfortunatly the toeboxes of most shoes actually don't fit anyone. See the toe box article or here:

Coughlin, MJ; Thompson, FM (1995). "The high price of high-fashion footwear" (PDF). Instructional Course Lectures. 44: 371–7. PMID 7797875. Archived from the original (PDF) on 2019-11-18.

It's out-of-date; men's shoe fashions now include narrow toes again. This is admittedly odd. HLHJ (talk) 04:41, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

I must admit the article is a bit of a shocker. I suspected the mismatch between foot and shoe shape couldn't be good, but could it really be true that it's costing us billions? Wow. Going by the article, part of the problem seems to be that not everyone is willing to upsize, resulting in constriction and deformation. I have to reflect on this, I have a vague sense that something needs to be done, but I don't see what I could actually do. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.61.180.106 (talk) 12:17, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

CIDL

Bro 2603:8001:F00:86E4:82F:7F77:6410:F41B (talk) 02:19, 30 August 2022 (UTC)