Talk:Monastic community of Mount Athos

Rename

Τhe translation of the greek name (Aυτόνομη Μοναστική Πολιτεία Αγίου Ορους) is Autonomous Monastic State of Holy Mountain

 1. It is not a republic but an autonomous theocratic state
 2. Mount Athos is its geographhical name, when we are talking about the state, it is called Holy Mountain  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.107.18.117 (talk) 09:25, 23 November 2020 (UTC) 

Flag

As an autonomous state Holy Mountain has a flag. So I think that the flag should be move to the infobox. Also the emblem of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Costantinople could be used as coat of arms — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.107.18.117 (talk) 09:30, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

No. We had a big RfC arguing that point a couple of years ago. Mount Athos doesn't have a flag. The thing you want to include is not the flag of Mount Athos, but the flag of the Orthodox Church of Constantinople, of which Mount Athos is a part. Saying that it is the flag of Mount Athos is like saying that the Union Jack is the flag of Birmingham. It just isn't. With the emblem it's even worse, because it isn't even the emblem of the Church as a whole, but the personal emblem of its patriarch. The patriarch and the Holy Mountain are not the same thing. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:03, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Villages

Are the two villages, Karves and Dafni, also all male like the monastic institutions? This is not made clear in the article.Bill (talk) 01:34, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes, they are geographically inside the republic and therefore all male. I'll endeavor to look at the article to see what needs clarifying and then fix that. Vincent J. Lipsio (talk) 16:13, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Monastic life

Hello, before even attempting to see what changes might be made, I'd like to ask here: is there a reason why there are two paragraphs called "Monastic life"? Has this been pointed out before? I couldn't find anything, but getting to know Wikipedia, I guess this might be more than just "Oh, we hadn't noticed". --Yoozed (talk) 14:58, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

@Yoozed: we had not noticed :) Veverve (talk) 16:41, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

@Veverve:Yeah, I thought so ;-) --Yoozed (talk) 10:33, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Alleged name of this institution is unsourced

It's time for a reminder about an issue I raised on the main Mount Athos talkpage back in 2017, before this sub-article was factored out from it. It seems that the alleged "official" Greek name of this entity, "Αυτόνομη Μοναστική Πολιτεία Αγίου Όρους", is entirely unsourced and was only invented for Wikipedia – and the same goes, by extension, for the current name of this article, "Monastic Republic of Mount Athos", and for its practice of calling this entity a "Republic" throughout.

I'll quote what I rote back in 2017 [1]:

Another factual claim we need to scrutinize, while we're at it, is the alleged "official name", Aftonomi monastiki politeia Agiou Orous. This phrase, or variants of it, have been in the article (in the infobox and/or the lead) since September 2006, but were never sourced. The phrase was first inserted by a user named Smith2006 [2][3], with the accompanying wording "Politically, it is known in Greece as...". By the end of 2010 this had morphed into "Its political status in Greece is known as...". It was "fact"-tagged by me in January 2011 [4] and subsequently removed from the intro in February 2011 by a user named Blue-Haired Lawyer [5], though it remained in the infobox. It was reintroduced in the intro paragraph in December 2014 by none other than AuditoreEzio aka SilentResident [6], this time with the explicit claim of it being the "official name". Again, of course, without a source.

The funny thing is that there seems to be virtually no usage at all of this alleged "official name" anywhere on the web. There is certainly no trace of it in those places where you'd expect such an official name to be defined: in the Katastatikos Chartis [7] and in the Greek Constitution [8], nor is it used anywhere on the (semi-official?) Website inathos.gr. Google searches for either the transcription "aftonomi monastiki politeia Agiou Orous" or the Greek "Αὐτόνομη Μοναστικὴ Πολιτεία Ἁγίου Ὄρους" bring up only Wikipedia mirrors and other webpages using some kind of automatic location database. Not a single hit on the web domains where you'd expect the official status of the place to be treated and discussed, like the Greek government domains (.gov.gr) or the pages of the European Union. Zero book hits.

Curiously, the phrase "Aftonomi monastiki politeia" alone, without the "Agiou Orous", is used – though not as a name, but only as a generic description – in recent editions of the CIA Factbook [9]. But it's been there only since 2012; older editions simply said "autonomous region" at that point. (Did CIA copy from Wikipedia? Another interesting candidate for citogenesis.) The Greek Wikipedia calls the description "unofficial" ("ανεπίσημα χαρακτηρίζεται ως «Αυτόνομη Μοναστική Πολιτεία"), and also has no indication of it being the actual name.

This [10] Athonite blog explicitly argues against the factual correctness of the description. Again, no search hit showing actual use of the phrase (even as only a generic description) in official writing.

The current article also makes it sound as if the Constitution of Greece explicitly refers to it under a similar appellation, "Monastic State of the Holy Mountain". This, too, is plain false. There is nothing even remotely resembling this phrase in the constitution. The article also falsely claims that the constitution allows the Athos community to "set laws". That too is taken out of thin air.

This article needs to be rewritten substantially, and renamed – or, possibly folded back into the parent article after all. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:03, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

@Future Perfect at Sunrise: I would no oppose a renaming and deleting the "Monastic Republic of Mount Athos" resulting redirect. Maybe the article should be renamed to something simply descriptive like "Monastic community of Mount Athos", what do you say? Veverve (talk) 17:10, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

@Future Perfect at Sunrise: elaborate what do you mean by the phrase "none other than SilentResident"? You are kindly being reminded what the other admins and the Wikipedia community has told you 2 years ago about your problematic attitude towards others. If this is what I am thinking it to be, strike it.

As for the article name, my edit wasn't the best solution I am afraid, as WP:VERIFIABILITY is a core policy, but at the time was deemed better in my then capacity as editor than other options were, considering my personal experience from visiting the premises of Mounth Athos and the evident lack of sources on the web about the name the polity's authorities stylize their documents with. About the article, the best would be to delete it and merge any meaningful information from there into the article, Mount Athos, because I am not positive that things will improve regarding the accessibility to documents of Mount Athos (no wonder, Mount Athos's seclusion from the world has impacted Wikipedia's access to information regarding it). --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 18:36, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

@SilentResident: Future Perfect at Sunrise is not going to censor a quote from 5 years ago. Veverve (talk) 18:42, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Also, what do you think of my rename proposal? Veverve (talk) 18:59, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

I am certain that striking or, at least replacing the problematic part in the quote with a [...], won't be detrimental to what the editor is trying to say here.

I am not sure about any renames being really able to solve the problem for good, but I can't see why not try, as long as we can agree to stick with it and is accurately descriptive of the state. Your proposal can meet both criteria. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 19:05, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

A rename could of course be a start. The one term that can be sourced as being in official use is that of the "Hiera koinotita Agiou Orous", which we could roughly translate as "Monastic community of Mount Athos" or something similar. Just keep in mind that this, as a page title, won't be easily compatible with the POV tendency that's been at the heart of this article for years, of presenting Athos as somehow a state-like entity. Because evidently "Hiera koinotita" is only the name of the human institution (the polity), not the name of the territory it administers (the state, if there is such a thing). The territory as such is just "Athos", or "Agion Oros"; it apparently has no name other than that. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:57, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Renaming done. I feel an AfD is due to get rid of the former title. What do you say?

By the way, @Future Perfect at Sunrise:, if you have serious reasons to think there is a case of WP:CITOGENESIS please do not hesitate to add it to the list with your argumentation. Veverve (talk) 00:06, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Veverve, "Monastic community of Mount Athos" sounds good. But is really that going to last? The "POV tendency" the other editor has mentioned above, is real. Perhaps leaving a permanent Talk Page message on the top of the page, (like how it is suggested for articles where debates get repeated) so that all editors are notified before hand, and as soon as they enter the talk page, that any further debates/discussions about the name are unhelpful and unproductive for as long as the situation about access to sources for verifiability does not improve. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 01:15, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

@SilentResident: good idea, I support this proposal. As a sidenote, I would really like to know if you believe Monastic Republic of Mount Athos should be deleted by an RfD. Veverve (talk) 01:19, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

IMO redirects should stay for at least a bit while especially if the move is recent one. But if you believe the redirect is more harm than good, or not likely to be used at all, then go ahead. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 01:24, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

• Monastic Republic of Mount Athos, Autonomous Monastic State of Ayion Oros, Republic of Athos, and Athonian Republic should all be deleted. Veverve (talk) 01:32, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

+Athonite State if that's ok. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 01:40, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

• So far: Aftonomi Monastiki Politia Agiou Orous, Athonite monastic state, Athonian Republic, Athonite Republic Athonite State, Autonomous Monastic State of Ayion Oros, Autonomous Monastic State of Mount Athos, Monastic Republic of Mount Athos, Monastic State of Mount Athos, Republic of Athos. Veverve (talk) 17:59, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

@Future Perfect at Sunrise and SilentResident: I have made my RfDs, they are at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 January 16#Aftonomi Monastiki Politia Agiou Orous. Please come and give your opinion. Veverve (talk) 18:32, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Redirects for discussion

"Aftonomi Monastiki Politia Agiou Orous" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Aftonomi Monastiki Politia Agiou Orous and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 January 16#Aftonomi Monastiki Politia Agiou Orous until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Veverve (talk) 18:21, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

"Athonite monastic state" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Athonite monastic state and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 January 16#Athonite monastic state until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Veverve (talk) 18:21, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

"Athonian Republic" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Athonian Republic and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 January 16#Athonian Republic until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Veverve (talk) 18:21, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

"Athonite Republic" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Athonite Republic and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 January 16#Athonite Republic until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Veverve (talk) 18:22, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

"Athonite State" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Athonite State and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 January 16#Athonite State until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Veverve (talk) 18:22, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

"Autonomous Monastic State of Ayion Oros" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Autonomous Monastic State of Ayion Oros and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 January 16#Autonomous Monastic State of Ayion Oros until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Veverve (talk) 18:22, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

"Autonomous Monastic State of Mount Athos" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Autonomous Monastic State of Mount Athos and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 January 16#Autonomous Monastic State of Mount Athos until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Veverve (talk) 18:23, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

"Monastic Republic of Mount Athos" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Monastic Republic of Mount Athos and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 January 16#Monastic Republic of Mount Athos until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Veverve (talk) 18:23, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

"Monastic State of Mount Athos" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Monastic State of Mount Athos and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 January 16#Monastic State of Mount Athos until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Veverve (talk) 18:23, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

"Republic of Athos" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Republic of Athos and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 January 16#Republic of Athos until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Veverve (talk) 18:23, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Diamonitirion into Monastic community of Mount Athos

Diamonitirion fails WP:GNG on its own, but should be (and already is) noted in this article. voorts (talk/contributions) 02:20, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Support. The article can be merged in #Administration and organization section. Sethemhat (talk) 03:45, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support per Sethemhat. Veverve (talk) 09:02, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

  Y Merger complete. Klbrain (talk) 15:15, 26 October 2023 (UTC)