Talk:Momčilo Tapavica

Name

Hobartimus, you did not had a single reason to revert my edits here: Momčilo Tapavica was an ethnic Serb (I even have some cousins with this surname), so this is name which was written in church registry books when he was born, this was the name under which he lived and died (in Yugoslavia), and the only place where Hungarian version of his name is used are Olympics games. He clearly was not an example of magyarized person like for example Jovan Damjanić whose article name written in Hungarian is no problem. Tapavica, however, is different case, and we should implement here the Wiki policy to write native names of the people. PANONIAN 16:34, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

You did not give reason to your abusive and undiscussed move. This article is about a person who won bronze medal for Hungary. If you notice I did not create the article, it was created with the name under which Momcsilló Tapavicza is known. He is known under that name because he competed under that name in the Olympics. Wikipedia policy will be followed in this case. I'm not sure if you are aware that moving articles happens under the "request for moves" process, especially controversial moves. Also according to the article he was born in Nádalja, Hungary so he was citizen by birth, not a "foreign national studying in Budapest". It seems he was no different than any other citizen competing for their respective countries. I'm sure there were some citizens of various mixed ethnic backgrounds who competed for Serbia during the times. Hobartimus (talk) 17:15, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

The Serbian name is noted, his Serbian origin is noted, there is a redirect from various Serbian versions of the name. If he really competed for Serbia in 1912 as some IP alleged we can add that too, although it is doubtful since there is no info that he moved to Serbia, or acquired citizenship there in 1912 and he was already 40 years old at that time an age where sportsmen rarely compete at an Olympic level. "The first official participation of Serbia was in 1912, this would make Tapavicza to the first (unofficial) competitor from Serbia." -this was the original sentence this sentence does not claim that Tapavicza competed in 1912. Hobartimus (talk) 17:32, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

This IS NOT "article about a person who won bronze medal for Hungary", but about person that is famous for other reasons as well including the reason that he was famous architect. Wikipedia has a clear policy that in such cases native names of the people are used and no matter that he was born under Hungarian administration, he later lived and died in his own country, Yugoslavia, and the name that is written on his grave is certainly not written with Hungarian alphabet. Guess what: we have article about Hungarian politician from Serbia named József Kasza and not Jožef Kasa, no matter that Serbian variant of his name is more often used in media and documents than Hungarian one. Also, it is irrelevant who created article under which name, since it is obvious that person that created article had a single source listing a name of this person written with Hungarian alphabet and was not aware of other sources that list this person under its native name. I can list such sources for you in simple google search: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=momcilo+tapavica&btnG=Google+Search Try this one for example: http://www.oks.org.rs/i1010201e.htm And more data about him you have here: http://forum.burek.com/index.php/topic,231021.0.html The last source is in Serbian, but among other things, it say that Tapavica moved to Montenegro in 1908, then that he also lived in Morocco and later returned to Yugoslavia where he worked for Yugoslav government, so it is clear what his national feeling was - he certainly did not considered himself a Hungarian (and was not of mixed ethnic background) and therefore he was not a person "of Serbian origin", but was a Serb that lived and died as a Serb in his own country Yugoslavia. PANONIAN 06:08, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Oppose move, Momcsilló Tapavicza is most known for his achievement as a bronze medal winner for Hungary in the very first Olympics he is most known under this name. The fact that the article under this name was created by a third person (compare with WP:TO) also supports this. I think the above user went too far in using sources such as "http://forum.burek.com" an internet forum and arriving at the conclusion that "a Serb that lived and died as a Serb in his own country Yugoslavia." which is as offensive as it is dangerous. Hobartimus (talk) 12:02, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Offensive and dangerous? Listen: this man was born and died under name Momčilo Tapavica and the only reason why he appeared under name Momcsilló Tapavicza in the olimpycs was the fact that rulers of the country from which he came were racists who hated his ethnicity, his language and his native name and therefore they allowed to him to participate in the olympics only under magyarized (i.e. false) name. That racism is, mister Hobartimus, what was very insulting in that time and it is insulting now and if we keep name Momcsilló Tapavicza for this article then we will send a message that we support racist magyarization policy implemented by the Kingdom of Hungary in that time. As for sources, see google search again, I just showed to you few sources from the first page of the search results, but there are much more from where they came: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=momcilo+tapavica&btnG=Google+Search PANONIAN 14:04, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Request for Move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was not moved. It seems fairly clear that "Momcsilló Tapavicza" is the name that he is most commonly known as in English. -- Aervanath (talk) 15:59, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

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• Momcsilló Tapavicza → Momčilo Tapavica

Oppose Due to Olympic participation the person is most known under the current name, Momcsilló Tapavicza under which the article was created, which is used all over wikipedia(in other sports related articles) as well as the German, French etc major wikis where Tapavicza has an article. See my other arguments above. Hobartimus (talk) 23:11, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME, the most common name in English is the one used in the Olympic participation for which this person is notable. Some kind of exception from wikipedia rules based on "ethnic pride" must definitely be avoided.--Nmate (talk) 10:31, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Oppose per above. Baxter9 (talk) 13:42, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Support - Momčilo Tapavica is a native name of this person and the only place where he was recorded as Momcsilló Tapavicza were olympic games. whether this person is most well known for participation in olympics or not is irrelevant for the issue which name we would use in this article - I will repeat that only reason why his name was written with Hungarian alphabet in olympic games is that he was a member of oppressed minority in the country ruled by racists who did not allowed to this man to participate in the sports event under his native name. In another words, this sportsman was a victim of such racist oppression and he had to give away his ethnic pride and his personal name in order to fulfil his love for sports. It would be outrage if Wikipedia implement racist magyarization policy that did not allowed to this man to participate in the sports event under his real name. This also make irrelevant who created this article first and under which name, since the original creator obviously used a single source that list this man under name Momcsilló Tapavicza and was not aware of many other sources that list him under his native name Momčilo Tapavica, which can be confirmed by simple google search: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=momcilo+tapavica&btnG=Google+Search PANONIAN 08:49, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Support: It is very wrong to spell the name of this man according to the Hungarian orthography (except maybe in Hungary itself). He was a Serb who lived under the Hungarian jurisdiction only during the first half of his life. In Yugoslavia, his name was certainly not spelled "Momcsilló Tapavicza". Even at the time when he was born, Vuk Stefanović Karadžić's reform was adopted for the Serbian language and orthography. As we can see from the article (section 'Architecture achievements'), Tapavica's notability is far from being limited only to his participation in the national team of the Kingdom of Hungary at the Olympic games, even if the spelling of his name at that occasion could be regarded as relevant for the title of this article, which certainly could not. VVVladimir (talk) 17:50, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

article title

PANONIAN asked me to look at this. My first impression was that the article's present lead section is a complete mess. So I did what anyone should do - try and verify how do people refer to him in English.

The sources used in the article:

• a single mention of Momcsilló Tapavicza in a list at the United States Tennis Association web site
• A Sports Reference LLC page titled "1896 Athina Summer Games" - but who ever uses "Athina" to refer to Athens in English?
• A Hungarian newspaper source
• A German page that says: Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org ", so it's an invalid reference anyway. It looks like an old mirror of the Stephanos Christopoulos article.

So I did some book searches:

• http://www.google.com/search?tbo=1&tbs=bks%3A1&q=Momcsill%F3+Tapavicza&pws=0 shows six Wikipedia-based books and one Hungarian book - Magyar olimpiai lexikon, 1896-2008.
• http://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=Momcilo+Tapavica&pws=0 shows Historical dictionary of the Olympic movement (published by Scarecrow Press), a German book 1896: Athen : die Bilder der Spiele der I. Olympiade, and five Yugoslav books.

The more general searches:

• http://www.google.com/search?q="Momcsillo+Tapavicza"+tennis+-wiki+-facebook&lr=lang_en&pws=0 gives me about 190 results. Despite my attempt to weed out junk, six out of first ten are various "Books LLC" reprints of Wikipedia.
• http://www.google.com/search?q="Momcilo+Tapavica"+-wiki+-facebook&lr=lang_en&pws=0 gives me about 217 results, and yet four out of first ten are WorldLingo and other variations of Wikipedia.

Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but based on this I certainly don't see any particularly compelling reason to prefer the Hungarian name over the Serbian name in the English article. WP:COMMONNAME invocations aren't a magic wand - they need to be supported by actual references. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 14:09, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 14:23, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

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Momcsilló Tapavicza → Momčilo Tapavica — I am requesting that this page is moved to title Momčilo Tapavica, which was a native name of this person (as I recall naming policies, native names of the people are preferred in article titles and the current title of this article is not a native name of this person). Momčilo Tapavica was an ethnic Serb and his name should be written in Serbian language (Momčilo Tapavica), not in Hungarian (Momcsilló Tapavicza). He was a Serb born in Austria-Hungary (where it was not allowed that native Serbian names are used in official documents), but since dissolution of Austria-Hungary in 1918, this man lived in his own country Yugoslavia where his native name Momčilo Tapavica was in official documents written in his native language. We have opposite examples where articles about several ethnic Hungarian politicians from Serbia (i.e. Sándor Páll, Sándor Egeresi, József Kasza, etc) are entitled with their native Hungarian name, not with Serbian variants of their names, no matter that they for whole their life lived in Serbia. Momčilo Tapavica who lived in Austria-Hungary only in first part of his life is therefore, by my opinion, much stronger case for usage of his native name in article title. Previous voting about renaming was rejected only because 3 ethnic Hungarian users voted against this renaming (and I do not think that they were objective in their judgment) and because other users were not interested in voting. If needed, I would support opening of new voting where more users should be given opportunity to say their opinion. PANONIAN 20:29, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Users who support the move

• Support PANONIAN 20:34, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
• Support. The Serbian spelling is Momčilo Tapavica and that's been the official spelling of the name for the last 31 years of his life which he spent living in Yugoslavia. There is no reason to use the Hungarian spelling. Vanjagenije (talk) 11:13, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
• Support per above arguments. In addition the Serbian form of the name (Momčilo Tapavica) is used on the site of the International Tennis Federation (Iaaasi (talk) 11:20, 31 January 2011 (UTC))
• Support I have nothing to add now. It is all explained.--Слободни умјетник (talk) 12:59, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
• Support per nominator and many examples on Wiki (some of them already presented, more ex:András Sütő, an ethnic Hungarian who lived in Romania, using it`s native name , also László Bölöni, born&living in Romania ; László Sepsi, and many others). The usual practice is to use the native ethnic name, in this case Momcilo Tapavica (Serbian language name). Adrian (talk) 13:17, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
• Support See the reason in the last vote. Outesticide (talk) 14:02, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
• Support We have to use the native ethnic name.Fakirbakir (talk) 14:05, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
• Support Per fine and detail explanations of Panonian and Adrian. --WhiteWriter ^speaks 14:24, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
• Support Per reasons above Zello (talk) 16:20, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
• Support Per reasons above Codrin.B (talk) 18:04, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
• Support Tapavica wasn't just a sportsman, he was prominent architect, too. If we look just his sport career, English sources are not consistent, some name him Momcsilló Tapavicza, while some name him Momčilo Tapavica. I believe that architect Momčilo Tapavica is virtually unknown in Hungary, so that is why it is logical to use native form of his name. -- Bojan  Talk  18:28, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
• Support Everything is clear. mm.srb (talk) 19:49, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
• Support per nominator.--Yopie (talk) 20:04, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
• Support Use the native name. Qorilla (talk) 20:14, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
• Support We should use his native name. Borsoka (talk) 02:47, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
• Support We should use his native name with reference in the lead to other relevant spelling. Rokarudi--Rokarudi (talk) 09:42, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
• Support His real name is Momčilo Tapavica.--Свифт (talk) 17:49, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
• Support Per reasons above. Ultrapop1 (talk) 20:13, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
• Support I naturally support the idea of providing his Hungarian name as it did have some official status, but I am often fighting the same battle when Kosovar-born Albanians are permanently presented in their Albanian forms to which I add Serbo-Croat. Nationalists then remove the Serbo-Croat leading to minor edit wars but on the whole, Tapavica should definitely be moved to his Serbian name. Evlekis (Евлекис) 00:15, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
• Support Native Serb, his name should be in Serbian. --Alexmilt (talk) 23:27, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
• Support As I commented above in the previous request for move. Vladimir (talk) 18:47, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Users who oppose the move

• Oppose I am leaning towards that support that the article remains as has been beforehand. However, it is not a big problem if the article is going to run under Serbian name and even the opinions of several Hungarian users are different than that of mine.--Nmate (talk) 15:19, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

• Comment; Ok, you stated your opinion, but no arguments. Per above, there are many reasons to change the article name. Can you please explain why do you think that is it better to leave the present name form ? Adrian (talk) 15:33, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose biased canvassing. KnowIG (talk) 00:16, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

• Comment This is not a valid reason for being against. The possible initial canvassing attempt was corrected when User:PANONIAN informed 5 Hungarian users about the discussion. All those 5 Hungarian users voted FOR the move (Iaaasi (talk) 08:21, 8 February 2011 (UTC))

Yes it is a reason to oppose. As canvasing to get your bill pushed through is not allowd.KnowIG (talk) 08:54, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

However, the arguments are important here, not the number of the voters from each side. As it can be seen, there was not brought not even a single argument for not moving the article, whilst the arguments for the move are strong (Iaaasi (talk) 09:04, 8 February 2011 (UTC))

But we don't show Djokovic in his Serbian name do we no. So whatever is easier for English speakers to write. And I see no reason why it should be moved apart from a bunch of nationalistic reasons which are not part of Wikipedia. KnowIG (talk) 13:12, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't see how Momcsilló Tapavicza is "easier for English speakers to write" than Momčilo Tapavica. The ease with which one can write a name is not a criteria for naming an article. Momčilo Tapavica is his native name and it is used on the site of the International Tennis Federation. (Iaaasi 14:05, 8 February 2011 (UTC))

You seem to be rather harrassing of anyone who opposes I think I might have to bring you up on that as harrasment on these discussions is most definatly not allowed. Since you have chosen to comment everytime someone opposes with no real reason to do so.

I am sorry if you felt harrassed, it was not my intention. I just wanted to have a constructive discussion because I really don't understand your arguments (Iaaasi (talk) 17:54, 8 February 2011 (UTC))

Comments

I don't have any opinion either way, though I would point out that User:PANONIAN has been canvassing quite a large number of users over this proposal (I don't know on what basis they were selected).--Kotniski (talk) 13:22, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

User:PANONIAN sent notifications to Serbian, Romanian and Hungarian users.

However, the arguments themselves are important here, not the identity of the voters and their number(Iaaasi (talk) 13:37, 31 January 2011 (UTC))

I am not Serbian, Hungarian or Romanian, yet I was informed about the proposal. Without notification, how else could I or other users have known about the activities on this talk page? In addition, there is time for more users to come forward and they too can be alerted to this page by simple messages. Evlekis (Евлекис) 23:13, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

This request is from January 30, it has been 20 days.. why isn`t this page moved? Adrian (talk) 10:33, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.