Talk:Mizkif/Archive 1

Archive 1

Full name

The article lists Mizkifs name as 'Matthew Rinaudo' as sourced by the NY Times article. This is disputed as being his real full name. This name originates due to a 'meme' where model 'Emily Rinaudo' is said to be Mizkif's sister in a conversation between Adam22 and Ice Poseidon due to how similar they look. It is noted in a followup that they are still not sure if this is a coincidence or they are actually siblings. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5U60uW1J_E

In all likely hood this is just a meme and not his real name.

I propose to just give the full name as 'Mizkif' until a real name can be confirmed. FeWorld (talk) 21:57, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

We will use the name that WP:RS's refer to him as until there is a verifiable source that can dispute it. WikiVirusC^(talk) 23:31, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

His real name is "Matthew (Redacted)" as stated by looking up ownership of his business "Mizkif Enterprises LLC". Here, the verifiable source is his LLC company. It is absolutely unfair to use "Rinaudo" as Mizkif's real name when it is infact not his real last name or anyone in his family or relationships' name. TwitchFacts (talk) 23:42, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

A source for his business "Mizkif Enterprises LLC" which gives his name as "Matthew (Redacted)": (Redacted) FeWorld (talk) 18:46, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 March 2021

(Redacted) Graduated from Rutgers University in 2021 with a degree in Finance Matrobee (talk) 21:53, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. WikiVirusC^(talk) 21:58, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 March 2021 (2)

change Rinaudo to (Redacted).

Rinaudo is used as a meme which is wrong information. TwitchFacts (talk) 23:19, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: I've discussed this with an editor in the past and while we are aware that is the case, we were not able to find any reliable sources that tie that last name to Mizkif. Until a reliable source connecting the two pops up, we cannot add it. Troutfarm27 ^(Talk) 23:25, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 March 2021 (3)

change Rinaudo to (Redacted)

Looking up Mizkif, it will display Mizkif Enterprises LLC. Matthew (Redacted) is the owner of Mizkif Enterprises LLC. There is no human in the world named "Matthew Rinaudo", it is purely a Twitch 'meme' that he names himself Rinaudo. , TwitchFacts (talk) 23:34, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. WikiVirusC^(talk) 23:43, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

@WikiVirusC: note that it is actually true that his name is Matthew (Redacted), the "Matthew Rinaudo" thing is a twitch meme, pretending he's the brother of instagram model Emily Rinaudo. I'm not sure that there's anything that can be done about this though, as I guess he's given this fake name to media outlets, so I guess the hoax will remain in the article. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 03:47, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 March 2021

Please add that Mizkif graduated university at Rutgers University. You could look at his latest twitch VOD at 38:00 where his mother sends him a picture of his degree. 2601:81:4080:9C10:1548:9383:898A:9748 (talk) 12:09, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. (A Twitch video is not a reliable source). Thanks, J850NK (talk) 13:51, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Additional note: the diploma he showed on stream does not appear to be from Rutgers (looks like Rowan University?) so that doesn't really match up. Troutfarm27 ^(Talk) 21:09, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Real Name

Here are the (Redacted) yearbooks, from the (Redacted) Public Library archives. You can see Matthew (Redacted) as a Senior in the (Redacted) 2013 Yearboo (pg. 34). Looking at the picture (along with all the other evidence), it's pretty obvious they're the same person. He's also on other pages as the class clown and a member of the "Italian Club." Here's a link to the (Redacted) 2012 (pg. 58) and (Redacted) 2011 (pg. 67), and (Redacted) 2010 (pg. 88) yearbooks, where you can see Mizkif in 9-11th grade.

And here's a (Redacted) post on (Redacted) that talks about where the class of 2013 is heading to college. It says Matthew (Redacted) is going to (Redacted), which lines up with his degree. Rqacc (talk) 23:52, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

I think the yearbook is as good a source as any for the name change, that in combination with the Mizkif Enterprises business listing is more than enough a reliable source to correct his name. FeWorld (talk) 17:17, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

BreckenK (talk) 16:24, 14 August 2021 (UTC) I suggest that WP:BLPPRIVACY be considered and the name Rinaudo be used since it is intentionally concealed and preferable for the Living Person for the name to be omitted, which does not result in a loss of content quality.

That would not apply in this case. (Redacted) is a public figure and has not looked to conceal his name for example in his business. He is not notable for a single event so this would not apply. FeWorld (talk) 16:32, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

WP:BLPPRIMARY states do NOT use public records that include personal details, this LLC has not been discussed by a secondary source, that is, there is no source beyond this record which is applicable to connect these two individuals and the secondary sources "posed" on this talk page which are not sufficient to qualify as original research. The name should be reverted to "Rinaudo", as this is the name taken by the content creator who the article is in reference to. BreckenK (talk) 16:43, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Hence why we do not use the business listing in the article, his education such as the report in the (Redacted) news article from the high school are reliable sources for his name. Per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Privacy_of_names the inclusion of his name for example in the yearbook is a secondary source which should be afforded greater weight than other news articles. FeWorld (talk) 16:57, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

The news article would not be as there is not evidence for Matthew Rinaudo to have gone to (Redacted). However, I do agree that the yearbook is potentially sufficient secondary evidence. I still believe that this would be insufficient to change the article name, in accordance with the Wikipedia policy on No Original Research on Living Persons. BreckenK (talk) 17:08, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

I wouldn't consider a reference to the yearbook to be original research as I am not coming up with any conclusion just displaying a source we have mentioned here on the talk page, yearbooks are accepted secondary sources. The act of finding a source (in this case a source repeated many times in his community) is not original research otherwise there would be no sources on wikipedia. Not sure I understand the point related to the article on (Redacted), again No Original Research so repeating that (Redacted) attended (Redacted) as stated shouldn't be an issue. FeWorld (talk) 17:17, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Regardless of the sources I still believe that the original name should be kept in accordance with the presumption of privacy of a living person, as the content creator has not confirmed or even brought up this name or relationship in any way. I believe that there may be a privacy issue in assuming and reporting the name as (Redacted), and there is no content loss in keeping the page listed as surname "Rinaudo". BreckenK (talk) 17:49, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

The privacy concerns would not cover a big public figures name, per the example in the guides that would be for someone who e.g. is not identified as part of a court case so no need to identify now. In this case (Redacted) refers to himself as 'Mizkif', and rather there is news articles with incorrect information based on memes. FeWorld (talk) 18:19, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

I share BrecknenK's concerns about WP:BLPPRIMARY for the name taken from the business listing, and sources from his highschool/university aren't really usable as they do not connect "Matthew (Redacted)" and "Mizkif". I do think we have to stick with the (incorrect) name Matthew Rinuado as per reliable sources.[1] It might seem a bit odd to do so, but Wikipedia is concerned with verifiability, not truth. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 18:17, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

The business listing is not used as it is a primary source, it can be mentioned in the talk page but not in the article per No Original Research. The secondary sources on his school are reliable and per WP:BLPNAME are afforded greater weight than other news articles you listed. FeWorld (talk) 18:24, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

WP:BLPNAME is about the privacy of names; it discusses decisions over whether to include or omit the names of individuals over privacy concerns, not WP:DUE determinations between conflicting sources. Regardless, the sources in the article saying he went to (Redacted) Highschool/(Redacted) are just ones you added that contain the name "Matthew (Redacted)". It is your original research that that individual is Mizkif (original research that I do obviously agree with), as we do not have any reliable sources, again other than that business listing, that makes the connection. We really do have to stick with what reliable sources say, which is "Matthew Rinaudo". ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 18:43, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes, user BreckenK has argued that we should not use (Redacted) due to WP:BLPNAME as they believe that the mistake with the name is due to privacy concerns. As I mentioned per WP:BLPNAME there are no privacy concerns and that the secondary sources stating his name show privacy concerns are not a reason for the name issue. I disagree with your point on original research. Per Wikipedia:No_original_research sources such as yearbooks and news articles are reliable sources due to being secondary sources, no analysis or synthesis is done as we have just repeated what is in the source. The name Matthew (Redacted) is verifiable because it is attributable to these sources, it is not original research, however, given the other articles with the incorrect name we have added these sources to the article due to the case where people may challenge this, per the guidance on Wikipedia:No_original_research. FeWorld (talk) 19:05, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

It is not in those highschool yearbooks that Matthew Rinuado is Mizkif. That is your original research. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 19:08, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

I won't edit further as it seems I am in the minority and a decision has been made but let other users who also edited make comment on this, User:Exentily, User:TwitchFacts FeWorld (talk) 20:26, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

The sources you're using don't say that (Redacted) is Mizkif, so yes, it is synthesis to connect the two. And beyond that, we're talking about a high school yearbook and a college paper. While secondary sources, they're not reliable secondary sources, especially for claims regarding living persons—which requires a very high bar. I mean, we need to be careful about even doctoral dissertations per WP:SCHOLARSHIP and these were written by some random people in high school and college journalism club or whatever. Woodroar (talk) 19:16, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, if you're saying it's clearly the same person because he is going to the same university or looks the same, this is clearly synthesis. Even if the sources said he's a Twitch stream it would still be synthesis to say it's the same person. The only way it would not be synthesis is if the sources say he's Mizkif or Matthew Rinaudo or otherwise connects the person covered to the person in this article in a manner which doesn't require people to look at photos or where he attended university or whatever. Also while I see no point to look at the year book, if it's simply a standard yearbook profile of a student, I would not consider that a secondary source. It would need to be an article in the year book e.g. one covering Mizkif's streaming or gaming activities or whatever. Finally, I do not consider that a business listing demonstrates a name has not been intentionally concealed. That sort of stuff happens all the time given legal requirements and people not properly thinking of the implications. Indeed it's a common issue with adult film actors where someone thinks it's fine to list the name because it was in a trademark filing or some business document. It's not. I'm actually failure sure the "certain careers" part in BLP was written in part to cover these cases since it's a very common one where people conceal their real names. There was another case recently where someone was trying to add the name of a singer because it was on sheet music they published on some site. In that case, we actually know the singer wants their name concealed since they've talked about it. Such people are of course public figures, but BLPNAME doesn't go away when the person is a public figure. Our policy recognises that we have to take especial care when we are simply writing about something someone was involved in, or where they aren't what the article is about (like family members) but it also extends to cases where article on a public figure themselves. What matters is the sourcing and whether the name is necessary. Nil Einne (talk) 12:16, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

• Copied from the BLPN discussion: I see that the article has been protected at "Matthew (Redacted)". Unfortunately, there are literally 0 reliable sources connecting a Matthew (Redacted) to Mizkif. A Google search for "Mizkif +(Redacted)" returns 1 result, a sketchy AI data collection site that redirects a few times before my browser antivirus/firewall closes the tab, which suggests that it's trying to install malicious software. Meanwhile, a Google search for "Mizkif +Rinaudo" returns "About 23,700 results". Most of them are junk, but I saw reliable sources like The New York Times (Mizkif, who is also known as Matthew Rinaudo) and ComicBook.com (Matthew "Mizkif" Rinaudo) alongside lesser sources like Upcomer (formerly Daily Esports) (Matthew “Mizkif” Rinaudo) before I stopped looking. Those sources are against, what? A high school yearbook and a college newspaper that don't even mention "Mizkif". It's absolutely WP:SYNTH to make that connection, and from sources that are nowhere near compliant for BLP claims. I have no issue with the protection, but the article should be reverted to this version, which is actually supported by reliable sources. Woodroar (talk) 18:52, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

  Protection was removed and the article has been reverted to the sourced name. I've added the New York Times and ComicBook.com as sources. We should be good, although the article could probably use more people watching it. Woodroar (talk) 20:06, 14 August 2021 (UTC)