Talk:Mitchell Miller (ice hockey)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 20:20, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

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• Article history

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• ... that the Arizona Coyotes renounced the rights to their first pick in the 2020 NHL Entry Draft, Mitchell Miller? Source: The Arizona Coyotes said on Thursday that they had renounced the rights to their top pick in this year’s N.H.L. draft

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Poland–United Arab Emirates relations

Moved to mainspace by Bait30 (talk). Self-nominated at 07:15, 30 October 2020 (UTC).

• The article is new enough and long enough. And the hook is technically accurate. However, I have two significant concerns here. First, the hook misleadingly suggests he was a top pick in the NHL draft when, in fact, he chosen in the fourth round with the 111th pick (Arizona traded or forfeited its picks in the first three rounds). Second, the article concerns an amateur athlete who has received significant coverage principally for his conviction in a juvenile court of bullying a developmentally disabled teen. This raises a significant WP:BLP1E concerns. Cbl62 (talk) 20:12, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

The publicity given to the incident is particularly troubling given that Ohio juvenile court records and proceedings are designated confidential by law. See here, page 11 ("Most court and police records about your juvenile case in Ohio are confidential and not available to the public, which means that people cannot find information about your juvenile record the same way they can look up information about an adult criminal record."). Several media outlets ignored this policy, but I do not think Wikipedia should be exacerbating the situation on its most viewed page. Cbl62 (talk) 20:32, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

I personally don't think BLP1E applies because he received coverage from reliable sources for hockey-related stuff before his controversy was exposed. However, I do understand not wanting to put it on the front page due to the weight of the bullying incident in the article.  Bait30  ^{Talk 2 me pls?} 21:17, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Understood. It would be helpful to get input from DYK gurus before making a final call on this one. @Gatoclass: @Yoninah: @Cwmhiraeth: @Maile66: Could one or more of you weigh in on the appropriateness of featuring this on the Main Page? Cbl62 (talk) 21:52, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

The hook focuses on negative aspects of a person's life. If there is nothing nice to say, it should not be included in DYK. Flibirigit (talk) 03:51, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

• ALT1 ... that Mitchell Miller was a first team all-USHL selection after scoring 33 points as a defenceman? Source: He developed into a first-team all-United States Hockey League pick, UND's first on the blue line in five years. and Stats

• @Flibirigit: @Cbl62: Would this work?  Bait30  ^{Talk 2 me pls?} 22:06, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
• Thanks for coming up with a different hook. Alt1 is short enough, interesting enough, accurate, and backed by in-line citation. However, in running an earwig copyvio test on the article, an issue was detected that can be seen here. In particular, there is an extended quote from Coyotes General Manager Bill Armstrong that is drawn directly from an Azcentral piece. You will need to fix this before the article can appear on the Main Page. Cbl62 (talk) 22:18, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

• @Cbl62: Ok, I removed the quote.  Bait30  ^{Talk 2 me pls?} 00:56, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

• Alt 1 good to go. Cbl62 (talk) 01:03, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

• Hi, I came by to promote this, but while the all-USHL selection is mentioned and cited, there is no cite for the 33 points as a defenseman. Yoninah (talk) 13:36, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

@Yoninah: Done.  Bait30  ^{Talk 2 me pls?} 19:15, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

The "Career statistics" section needs a citation for the chart. I suggest using hockeydb.com or eliteprospects.com for this. Cheers. Flibirigit (talk) 19:28, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

• Thanks. Pinging @Bait30: for the cite for the chart. Yoninah (talk) 19:29, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

• The chart is now sourced. Flibirigit (talk) 19:48, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

• Thanks, I wasn't too sure if I should add the citation bc it seems norm seems to be to use Template:Ice hockey stats instead.  Bait30  ^{Talk 2 me pls?} 20:01, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

• Thank you both. Restoring tick per Cbl62's review. Yoninah (talk) 20:48, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Per this discussion at WP:ERRORS, this hook was pulled from the main page. A more suitable hook is required for this article. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 00:32, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

• This is absolutely ridiculous. Here are some suggestions:

• ALT2: ... that in 2020, ice hockey player Mitchell Miller was selected first-team all–United States Hockey League, which means that he was voted by the ice hockey league's general managers as one of the best ice hockey players in the league, after scoring 33 points as a defenceman, an ice hockey position? Source: He developed into a first-team all-United States Hockey League pick, UND's first on the blue line in five years. and Stats and Winners for the All-USHL teams are determined by a vote of League general managers.
• ALT3: ... that the general managers of the United States Hockey League, an ice hockey league, voted Mitchell Miller as one of the best players in the league? Same sources

I made sure to link "general manager" because it's usage in sports is mainly confined to the US and Canada and I don't want English speakers to be confused with my usage of American. I found out just how different American is from English, so I made sure to add an excess amount of context. That way, an actual English speaker could come by and hopefully whittle it down and translate it into proper English.  Bait30  ^{Talk 2 me pls?} 03:40, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

ALT2 is far too long (above the 200 character limit). Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 09:38, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

• @Narutolovehinata5: I think the nominator is making a point. Just strike it and help approve this please. Yoninah (talk) 20:55, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

• Yeah, I was being extra WP:POINT-y last night and I’m sorry about that. I won’t be able to make proper adjustments right now as I’m not at my laptop. I’ll try shorten the hooks later.  Bait30  ^{Talk 2 me pls?} 21:18, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

I've struck ALT2 but the possibility of a shorter hook based on that remains. As for ALT3, the words "hockey" and "league" are used multiple times in the hook, although in the case of "ice hockey" it may be unavoidable since the consensus was to specify that the hockey in question is of the ice variety. "League" is used three times and at least one of them probably needs to go to avoid redundancy. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 00:58, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, that’s one of the reasons I disagreed and overreacted. Here’s a new alt:

ALT4: ... that league executives voted ice hockey player Mitchell Miller as one of the best blueliners in the United States Hockey League?  Bait30  ^{Talk 2 me pls?} 01:14, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

@Narutolovehinata5: Are you going to review this hook, or should I put the red DYK?again icon and request a new review?  Bait30  ^{Talk 2 me pls?} 18:57, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Probably need a new review, I was just helping out here with the "new hook needed" discussion. Pinging Cbl62 and Flibirigit for their thoughts on the new hooks. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 00:03, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

New review is needed here. Flibirigit (talk) 00:09, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

• I think the new hook (alt4) is fine. It's short, hooky (the "blueliner" bit is good as non-hockey fans may be intrigued by what that is), and accurate. The only hesitation I have is that the article/source don't literally say he was "selected as one of the best defencmen/blueliners". Instead, they say he was selected to the All-USHL team. Most anyone familiar with team sports knows that those two things are the same, i.e., that all-conference honors means a player is being selected as one of the best in the league at his position. All in all, I think it's an accurate hook. Cbl62 (talk) 00:37, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

• Cbl62, I thought so too, but the people in the discussion Lee linked above thought it was complete gibberish and unworthy of the front page. Someone told me that “this is English Wikipedia, not American Wikipedia”.  Bait30  ^{Talk 2 me pls?} 01:41, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

• Friendly suggestions: The article needs an "Early life" section directly after the introduction. It should include where and when Miller was born with citations, and basic information about family or where he grew up and played minor hockey if known. Currently, the birth date and location are not cited anywhere in the article. Cheers. Flibirigit (talk) 22:09, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Flibirigit, sorry for the late reply. I added an early life section, but it's only one sentence that contains birth date, location, parents, and citations. I'm not really an avid hockey fan, so I'm not sure where I would find info about youth hockey.  Bait30  ^{Talk 2 me pls?} 19:46, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
    • Thanks. A full review is still needed here. Flibirigit (talk) 22:27, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
• @Cbl62: Is it okay if you give this a second look? Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 10:48, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

@Narutolovehinata5: I noted above that I think alt 4 hook is fine: short enough, hooky and accurate. IMO the reservation that I raised is not something that should cause the hook not to run. Cbl62 (talk) 17:36, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

@Cbl62: A full review is needed for this nomination given how long it's been running. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 10:04, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

I did a full review back in November which this article passed. And as noted on December 22, the alt 4 hook looks fine: short enough, hooky and accurate. IMO the reservation that I raised is not something that should cause the hook not to run. Cbl62 (talk) 10:12, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

Bullying Incidents Section

This section has the text: "Miller maintains that his court-mandated apology letter was read to the Meyer-Crothers family."

"maintains" implies that it is an opinion. The source, [23] -> https://azcoyotesinsider.substack.com/p/mitchell-miller-addresses-his-past states the following:

"Miller believes that he has taken several steps toward repaying his debt, beginning with when he apologized to Meyer-Crothers in the immediate aftermath of the incident. The apology was court-mandated, but it was a personal apology, and public records of Miller’s expulsion hearing and recommendation, obtained by azcoyotesinsider.com, show that the apology was read both to Meyer-Crothers, and to school officials and the school board. The apology was also sent to the Meyer-Crothers family."

Which shows the apology was read aloud, and sent to the family, and is an official matter of court record. Aka, non-opinion.

The following edit is suggested: "Miller maintains his court-mandated apology letter was read to the Meyer-Crothers family. Court record stated that the apology was read both to Meyer-Crothers, and to school officials and the school board. The apology was also sent to the Meyer-Crothers family." 2601:5CA:4200:3880:0:0:0:13EE (talk) 16:48, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

 Done with minor changes, thank you for your request :) Actualcpscm (talk) 23:29, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Glad to help. Cheers. I was reading through the sources and caught it. 2601:5CA:4200:3880:0:0:0:13EE (talk) 05:23, 13 November 2022 (UTC)