Talk:Minor Cooper Keith

Untitled

Notable but not enough here for an article. Merge and redirect. Thatcher131 16:12, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. I think Keith richly deserves his own article. At the moment all the information here is taken from the article on the United Fruit Company, but than can and should be corrected. -- Eb.hoop 02:47, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I also disagree. It has been 2 months, and the vote is 2-1 against merge/redirect, so I am going to take off the tag.--Wehwalt 20:25, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Gold mining sources suspect

The info. currently in the article about Keith's mining operation is at least partly false. No date is given, but the chronology indicates that his mining concerns would date from the early 20th century. This would then not be the "oldest gold-mining tradition" in Costa Rica. Gold was mined in the Aguacate Mountains since 1815 (see here (in Spanish)) and in 1834 Mariano Montelagre and his family attracted British investment to those mines (establishing the Anglo Costa Rican Economical Mining Company). The Voces Nuestras article is political propaganda and should not be taken seriously as a historical source. It claims, for instance, that Keith was British, though he was as American as baseball. -- Eb.hoop 19:07, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I see your point. Though Keith's mining interests seem to have sparked a bit of a gold rush, I agree that I'd rather have another source to clarify the importance of his mining operations. That source can be relied upon at least for knowing that one of the major Canadian mining interests in the area went bankrupt in 2001 and that local interests are working the mines. But I did note that there was a lot of editorializing that had to be sifted through. OfficeGirl 20:24, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

P.S.:I fixed the article to state that the area has the oldest mining tradition. That's what I should have said from the beginning, since that's what my cited source said, not that Minor Keith started the mining tradition. If you can locate a better, more specific source, I will be glad to see your updates. I really only started work on this and related articles to address the fact that the Abangares was listed on Orphaned Articles.OfficeGirl 04:49, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid that's not correct either. The oldest gold-mining tradition in Costa Rica is in the Aguacate Mountains in the province of Alajuela, and not in Abangares. I don't have any better resources at hand on Keith's mining operations, but since the ones you offer are demonstrably unreliable, I think the info. should be removed or significantly pruned until it can be adequately documented. -- Eb.hoop 01:43, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure when we find better sources we will probably find that Keith's activities in Abangares were significant to Costa Rica's gold mining history, if for nothing else than for founding "mining towns" in the area, which seems to be an innovation of his. What I have read so far of him indicates that he was a major force in making organized units of commerce out of areas that were mostly jungle and what-not. If you feel strongly that Abangares is not the oldest mining tradition, perhaps you have a reliable source you could point us to on this talk page that clarifies the point. All of the travel guides promoting the Gold Mining Museum in Abangares seemed to indicate that they believe Abangares is the oldest tradition. Since the source I used seemed to reflect what I found to be generally advertised I felt it was just as good or better of a source than what has been used thus far to support this article. In any case since the gold mining tradition is so important to Abangares and their tradition dates back more than a century, it should be mentioned. If you can find a replacement source I will be glad to see you support the gold mining information in the Minor Keith article. But to weed out one source when the others in the article are so much worse seems strange to me. Are you questioning my good faith? I personally don't give a rat's darn about the political leanings of anyone in or around Costa Rica. OfficeGirl 15:54, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

No, I'm not questioning your good faith at all. I am only questioning the reliability of the sources that you have used. I have already provided an article that states that there were no active gold mines in Costa Rica until the discovery of the deposits in the Aguacate Mountains in 1815: [1] (see second parag. The author is a respected local historian.) Here's a better ref.: [2]. Let me translate the relevant parag.:

The Aguacate Mountains saw Costa Rica's first commercial mining activity, approximately from 1820 to 1840, when it decreased considerably. The capital produced by this activity was invested in coffee-growing. From 1890 onwards mining was reactivated, with the discovery of gold in the Montes de Oro, Abangares, and Tilarán. This so-called "second Costa Rican mining cycle" lasted until 1930.

As for Keith, I'm concerned that even academic commentators tend lazily to have everything fit into the simple scheme of depredation of Latin America by foreing capitalists being a continuation of the colonial depredation of the natives by the Spanish conquerors. I know nothing of Keith's mining activities (which is in a way meaningful, I think, since I'm Costa Rican and have read Costa Rican history fairly extensively), but I think that given the inaccuracies or your sources and the tendency to repeat that simplified "capitalist imperialism" meme, some caution is in order. -- Eb.hoop 18:03, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree. There's a lot of POV there. The article makes it sound like Keith raped the gold out of Costa Rica, doing nothing to improve the country. Only in passing do we get the sense he took the area from wilderness to at least some development. I think the POV can be toned down without implying his workers sold their souls to the company store.--Wehwalt 12:50, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Problems with Sources, Verifiability and Neutral Point of View

This is a notable topic, and great thanks for Wehwalt for working to develop it more. It would have been a disservice and a step backwards for Wikipedia if it had been deleted or merged. Kudos, Wehwalt!

That being said, I think it's time now for us all to really refine the article per Wikipedia standards. (I am addressing these points to Wehwalt because he has been the primary contributor who has shown a desire to make this a really good article, but it is an open discussion to anyone who wants to join in and help.)

Sources-- The three sources that you contributed were:

1. Faces of Costa Rica (dot) com--

five very short paragraphs mentioning the year he started the railroad work, the length of the railroad and the long time it took to build it, the death of his brothers, an unexplained default by the Costa Rican govt., acquisition of land and new loans form Britain, beginning the banana trade, merging the fruit companies, that banana became important to Costa Rica, that his banana interests were incredibly lucrative.

It is from this source that you have apparently developed this article text:

Keith was born in Brooklyn, New York. He was the nephew of U.S. railroad entrepreneur Henry Meiggs and took over Meiggs's contract to build a railroad in Costa Rica. Keith was involved from the start of the project in 1871 and took full control after Meiggs's death in 1877.

Keith was rather the last resort for the Costa Ricans--the route was mountainous, the bank accounts empty, the securities of the railroad unsellable. Keith began this business with his two brothers, who both died in the endeavor. To have something to transport on the railroad--and to sell--Keith began planting bananas along the rail line, from roots he obtained from the French. He had begun planting bananas in 1873. He imported labor from all over the world.

In this era when the transmittal of disease was not understood, and given the mountainous terrain the railroad had to go through, it is not surprising that the death toll was high, running to four thousand people.

1. A broken link on "HighBeam Encyclopedia"--

It is possible that the web page you originally used as a reference has been moved here: [3] (webpage informes us its text is "From: The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition|Date: 2007"), but I am not sure if it contains the same information you were using when you edited. In any case the present HighBeam Encyclopedia article is one paragraph long and it states:

Minor Cooper Keith 1848-1929, American magnate, a founder of the United Fruit Company, b. Brooklyn, N.Y. In the face of incredible hardships he built (1871-90) a railroad from the port of Limón, which he founded on the Caribbean, to San José, capital of Costa Rica. Banana plantations that he started experimentally near Limón in 1873 prospered, and he established the first steamship service to bring these bananas to the United States. He gained control of other plantations in Panama and Colombia and dominated the banana trade. In 1899 he combined his plantation interests with those of the Boston Fruit Company in the West Indies to form the United Fruit Company. He returned to railroad building, organized (1912) the International Railways of Central America, and completed an 800-mi (1,287-km) railway system, but died before realizing his dream of a line from Guatemala to the Panama Canal. His work profoundly altered the economic life of Central American countries.Bibliography: See W. Stewart, Keith and Costa Rica (1964).

It is from this source that you have apparently developed this article text:

When the Costa Rican government defaulted on its payments in 1882, Keith had to borrow £1.2 million from London banks and from private investors in order to continue the difficult engineering project. In 1884, the government of President Próspero Fernández Oreamuno agreed to give Keith 800,000 acres (3,200 km²) of tax-free land along the railroad, plus a 99-year lease on the operation of the train route, and on the port of Limón. The railroad was completed in 1890, but the flow of passengers proved insufficient to finance Keith's debt. On the other hand, the sale of bananas grown in his lands and transported first by train to Limón and then by ship to the United States, proved very lucrative. Keith soon came to dominate the banana trade in Central America and in the Caribbean coast of Colombia.

To market the bananas, Keith soon ran a steamship line from Limón to the United States. He bought up other Central American banana companies. In 1899, Keith combined his venture with Andrew W. Preston's Boston Fruit Company in the West Indies to form the United Fruit Company.

He returned to railroad building, organized (1912) the International Railways of Central America, and completed an 800-mi (1,287-km) railway system, but died before realizing his dream of a line from Guatemala to the Panama Canal. (TEXT THAT WAS COPIED AND PASTED FROM A COPYRIGHTED SOURCE) His goal, which was not realized, was to be able to move anything back and forth by rail from the United States to anywhere in Central America. His work profoundly altered the economic life of Central American countries.

1. A Software Engineer's Self-Published Web Article entitled "The Economic Empire of the Tropics"--

There's a lot of reasons we can't really call this a reliable source, but probably the most important indicator would be this statement by the author:"A History of my indirect ancestor Minor C Keith" and this one: "I caution the reader that neither this history nor any of the referenced works in this section are necessarily an acurate and unbiased depiction of the events in question. This web page is in part my notes as I conduct research on the matter. I have interwoven history from a variety sources including a couple obituaries, family records, Samuel Crowther's book, and various web sites." The author's striking mention of his opinions against the American CIA overthrowing the communist-leaning government of Guatemala is decidedly WP:POV (though I may personally agree with him after my work with many Guatemalans who have fled the country).

In any case, I note that this reference contains the following statements, two paragraphs above where he starts quoting the Crowther book: "He married the daughter of a former president of Costa Rica, Christina Castro. He became involved in archaeology when his construction projects uncovered ancient burial sites; upon his death, he donated the worlds "finest collection of ancient indian gold" to the American Museam of Natural History of New York."

It is from this source that you have apparently developed this article text:

Keith married Cristina Castro Fernández, daughter of former President of Costa Rica José María Castro Madriz. He founded a chain of general stores. He left his collection of ancient Indian gold to the American Museum of Natural History in New York.

Verifiability--one of Wikipedia's core content policies

Every individual fact or assertion that we post in the article MUST come from a RELIABLE SOURCE and we are required to show EXACTLY where each individual fact or assertion came from. Since Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, we have an obligation to only report what third-party sources have said about our topic.

I will direct your attention to the following quotation from Wikipedia policy: WP:PROVEIT "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged should be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation."

For whatever reason, there are more facts asserted in the article than are contained in the sources, and, frankly, we need better sources. This is something that we must fix.

Neutral Point of View--another one of Wikipedia's core content policies

We cannot be an advocate for or against the reputation of any person, company, practice or policy. We cannot write any opinionated content on whether Minor C. Keith was good or bad, whether the things he did were right or wrong, whether the Costa Rican people were ultimately harmed or benefited from his involvement in their economy.

We can cite a reliable source that says he got all the money, if that's what the source says, and it is reliable. We can cite a reliable source that says the Costa Rican government has issued proclamations in his honor as the great savior of their people, if there is a reliable source that says this happened.

We cannot insert statements such as:

"Keith was rather the last resort for the Costa Ricans" (he was their savior? WHO SAYS? an encyclopedia can't say that. If you can find a source that reports that someone speaking officially on behalf of the Costa Rican government said so, the article can reference who said it and what they said.)

"However, such tax breaks were a sin qua non to development of the rugged Costa Rican interior." (this is editorializing. WHO SAYS? Wikipedia can't make "right or wrong" justifications of a subjects actions, even if the actions in a moral sense might be truly justifiable. We can only report the facts from reliable sources.)

"it is not surprising that the death toll was high, running to four thousand people." (if it isn't a surprise, why say so? Ta-daaaa! this is not a surprise! and WHO SAYS it isn't a surprise? a Wikipedia editor? We're not supposed to say our personal opinions.)

Well, okay, this is plenty long for now. These are my challenges for improving the article. happy editing! OfficeGirl 20:20, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I'll work on some rephrasing. Thank you for the kudos.--Wehwalt 12:22, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

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