Talk:Minar-e-Pakistan

2006

The article suggested that 'Minar-e-Pakistan' means 'Pakistan Day Memorial'. It actually means 'Tower of Pakistan'. I have changed the sentence to the correct meaning. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.27.61.220 (talk • contribs)

I also like "Tower of Pakistan" better than "Pakistan Column", but I'm leaving it to a patriotic Pakistani and native Urdu speaker to make the call, out of respect. I also wasn't sure whether to use the A. manār or P. mīnār so I took an educated guess (my Ferozsons Urdu-English dictionary gives one and my Ferozsons English-Urdu gives the other. Hope I'm right in this usage, with the izafat as my guide. Khirad 23:54, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Construction Year

There's no mention of any date in the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.81.229.29 (talk) 23:22, 16 February 2007 (UTC).

Height?

The base is about 8 meters above the ground. The tower rises about 62 meters on the base, thus the total height of minaret is about 92 meters above the ground.
Strange. I get 8+62 totals 70 meters. How is that 92 meters calculated? Dutch wikipedia sums it to 72 m (strangely 60+8 m). 85.217.20.33 (talk) 15:07, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Coordinate error

{{geodata-check}}

The following coordinate fixes are needed for

—66.54.75.246 (talk) 11:39, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

 Done. You haven't said what error you're referring to; but it does appear that the coordinates were a bit off, and I've emended them. Deor (talk) 16:32, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

External links modified

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Inspired by the Eiffel Tower

Nowhere in the article, it is said that it has been inspired by the Eiffel tower. But it's a reality. Just compare the pictures. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.215.72.178 (talk) 11:05, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

 Not done You need to provide a source for that. Merely comparing pictures aren't a proof that a particular thing has been inspired by another. Also, according to my observation, they do not look the same. Knightrises10 (talk) 11:15, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

En masse public molestation and sexual violence against women

Section proposed to be added

"...A nurse by profession and freelance tiktok and Youtube vlogger actress Ayesha Akram and her team members were attacked, molested and looted by a large crowd in the evening hours of Aug 14, 2021, on 75th independence day of Pakistan at Greater Iqbal Park, Minar-i-Pakistan . According to reports incidence carried on from 6.30 P.M. up to 8.40 p.m. Clips of incidence went viral on social media. Incidence was widely criticized for muteness of large spectator gathering around, also for absence of security guards at monument, delayed police response .."

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias are for expanding information and knowledge' (talk) 07:51, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

References

@Fairoz98:, I keep taking note of women's rights issues. I do have drafts like Draft:Sexual politics and Draft:Sexual politics in south Asia actually each of drafts are not critical, I do have even drafts like Draft:Pawri Ho Rahi Hai or Draft:Humor during the COVID-19 pandemic or Draft:Aurats (word). Why I am introducing my drafts or I added See also link to Rabindra Sarobar Stadium#En masse public molestation and sexual violence against women since many users not knowing that I work across topics keep bringing bad faith questions like am I targeting women rights issues of one specific country only, so before updating 14 Aug 2021 Minar-e-Pakistan incidence I added link to similar previous Indian public place sexual violence so users taking side of Pakistan need not feel afraid with questions like is only Pakistan's record being targeted. For record I want to mention that I keep taking certain Western and Black sea women's rights issues too and this time here it is Minar-e-Pakistan.

I am not insisting to keep link of Rabindra Sarobar Stadium#En masse public molestation and sexual violence against women but requesting users to take note of Minar-e-Pakistan 14 Aug 2021 incidence.

I hope users understand, Thanks and warm regards, Bookku, 'Encyclopedias are for expanding information and knowledge' (talk) 13:05, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Okay well some one seems to have already created new section regarding this issue already. I will be adding section see also template for Violence against women in Pakistan in couple of days if no one else adds. Bookku, 'Encyclopedias are for expanding information and knowledge' (talk) 08:52, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

• Social media treatment, Social media treatment 2 Social media treatment 3 Bookku, 'Encyclopedias are for expanding information and knowledge' (talk) 02:42, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

• (currently deleted) version in edit war, mainly created by IP 103.98.129.20 and latest deletion by IP 213.205.198.226

2021 Minar-e-Pakistan mass sexual assault

See also: Violence against women in Pakistan and Mass sexual assault

A young female tiktoker was assaulted by a crowd of over 400 people as she and her male friend visited Minar-e-Pakistan on the country’s independence day. In a video that went viral days after August 14, Pakistan’s Independence Day, hundreds of men could be seen picking up the woman, brutally tearing off her clothes and throwing her up in the air.Amidst its struggle to eradicate violence against women, the country received severe denunciation from across the world after the incident.

References

Deletion edit summary by IP 213.205.198.226 information is irrelevant. Either all events should be included or none. Otherwise it is against ethics to give partial information of events shows a bias

Reply to IP 213.205.198.226

• An incidence of which whole of Pakistan and international media took note of, Pakistan's Prime Minister publicly admitted his feelings of "..."ashamed and pained" by the assault of a female TikToker by hundreds of men near Minar-i-Pakistan..." how it can be irrelevant?
• As Pakistan's most prestigious monument Minar-i-Pakistan has got encyclopedic notability, 14th August being Pakistans independence got encyclopedic notability and a woman getting being sexually attacked by hundreds of people and covered by all the media has got encyclopedic notability then how it can be avoided from Wikipedia as encyclopedia?
• Where (reliable) reference are available Wikipedians have been taking note of all notable incidences whether in Pakistan or else where. including that of Mass sexual assaults. If you have any good notable (emphasis to notable) events held @ Minar-i-Pakistan with reliable refs you can very well take note of those in the article; same time some events even if some one does not like but are notable and reliable refs are available need to be taken note of.
• Even before coming on Wikipedia news spreads through global media so hiding or window dressing on Wikipedia neither helps any countries image nor it helps it's women. Society needs to improve, hiding assaults on women is not the solution.
• Last but not least Wikipedia does not support censoring of notable content having verifiable reliable sources.

Let us discuss Bookku, 'Encyclopedias are for expanding information and knowledge' (talk) 16:22, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Location

Just for record: While one user admitting notability of incidence raised a query on my user talk page whether incidence happened @ Minar-e-Pakistan or adjacent Greater Iqbal Park? I replied as below:

Thanks for discussing.

Dawn news report: In the first information report (FIR) registered at the Lorry Adda police station, a copy of which is available with Dawn.com, the complainant stated that she, along with six companions, were filming a video near Minar-e-Pakistan on Independence Day when around 300 to 400 people "attacked us"....She said that she and her companions made a lot of effort to escape from the crowd. Observing the situation, the park's security guard opened the gate to the enclosure around Minar-e-Pakistan, the FIR quotes her as saying..."However, the crowd was huge and people were scaling the enclosure and coming towards us..

Samaa.tv report is more specific: A still from the video of the mob that attacked the woman on August 14, 2021 at Greater Iqbal Park and Minar-e-Pakistan....The incident took place on the public holiday Saturday at the Greater Iqbal Park at the Minar-e-Pakistan monument. The victim said that she was at the Minar-e-Pakistan with her friends to make a video for her YouTube channel when suddenly more than 300 to 400 men attacked them. The victim said when she and her friends tried to get away from the crowd, the guards at the Minar opened the gate of the fence and they went inside..The men jumped over the fence and surged towards us and started...

Even Prime Minister of Pakistan Imran Khan referred incidence in his speech as Minar-e-Pakistan incidence.

It is almost a two hour thing so more details will emerge as police investigation and court cases move forward. Again Pakistan does have track record of victim blaming and also window dressing media but same time over a period of time scholarly academic books also keep coming up and visible written and street activism from women's movements and civil society. so let us see how things move forward and kind of references keep becoming available.

Pl. do suggest. Thanks

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 14:28, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

nabling and justifying violence, specifically against women the weaponization of one's persoanal information is a regular occurrence. According to Dr Muhammad Moiz while Tik Tok and Instagram, as well as the increased visibility they provide, may be new addition; but women, and also those who censure them for engaging in acts of self-expression and pleasure, predate social media. Dr. Moiz and Shmyla say that the digital media simply imports preexisting power structures, social media becomes just a new additional tool to commit violence upon on visible bodies.

References

Baffle☿gab 19:31, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

my name is subhan ali and i read in class 11

• Just for record:As suggested @ discussion @ Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors/Requests/Archives/2021#A section copy edit request

Since I suppose mostly there would not be much doubts about notability of the incidence so I did update Draft:2021 Minar-e-Pakistan mass sexual assault so as per your suggestion we can have a short summary and a hatnote linking to Draft:2021 Minar-e-Pakistan mass sexual assault @ the article Minar-e-Pakistan.

I think we would afford some space for Women related Wikipedia projects to be involved in respect to how much summary would be relevant in the article Minar-e-Pakistan.province in pakistan in city karachi punjab islamabad amnd the modt big city lahore

Thanks for the support and warm regards

000000

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 12:36, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

nabling and justifying violence, specifically against women the weaponization of one's persoanal information is a regular occurrence. According to Dr Muhammad Moiz while Tik Tok and Instagram, as well as the increased visibility they provide, may be new addition; but women, and also those who censure them for engaging in acts of self-expression and pleasure, predate social media. Dr. Moiz and Shmyla say that the digital media simply imports preexisting power structures, social media becomes just a new additional tool to commit violence upon on visible bodies. <ref

Coatrack

The subject of this article is "Minar-e-Pakistan". It is not all the controversy surrounding the mass sexual assaults (which are disgusting and reprehensible). Therefore controversy over Imran Khan's remarks on the use of smartphones in this case are irrelevant to this article. They may be added to Imran Khan (if it is DUE). But really we shouldn't have more than a short paragraph mentioning the event. Current text makes this article into a WP:COATRACK, violates WP:DUE and WP:RECENTISM.VR _talk 13:22, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Incident

Incident at Minar e Pakistan should describe in Incidents sub heading. You can create other page for complete episode of August 14 but reference of the incident should be mention in one line. You can see the example at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Times_Square#Incidents. -Ameen Akbar (talk) 19:13, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

@امین اکبر: I agree. Maybe we can move most of it to Draft:2021 Minar-e-Pakistan mass sexual assault for now.VR _talk 00:47, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

• Comment: Expecting reasonable effort towards at least reasonable participation of Women users in women related discussions and not to hurry up discussion closures til then.

• • Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women
  • Demand women's participation in decision-making at all levels
  • Equality of women and men under the law; protection of women and girls through the rule of law
  • Recognition of the fact that distinct experiences and burdens of women and girls come from systemic discrimination
  • Ensure that women's experiences, needs and perspectives are incorporated into the ... social decisions.

Thanks

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 06:13, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

A merge can always be undone if there are substantial objections later on.VR _talk 04:34, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

Coverage of Notable crimes at notable monuments/ public locations

• Following is just for reference, information and knowledge which might help to decide how much relevant 'Notable crimes at notable monuments/ public locations in related Wikipedia articles are relevant?:

@ WP:Reference desk Humanities I had requested information on instances of coverage of 'Notable crimes at notable monuments/ public locations in related Wikipedia articles.

• I myself added instance from 1960s @ Rabindra Sarobar Stadium

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 08:34, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

Other information received in above discussion:

• 2021 United States Capitol attack
• Brighton hotel bombing
• Hyde Park and Regent's Park bombings
• 1989 Tiananmen Square protests and massacre
• Dakota Building mentions the murder of John Lennon
• Murder in the Cathedral
• 2017 Las Vegas shooting from the Mandalay Hotel, the 1966 University of Texas tower shooting
• Famous Art thefts from museums: Louvre, Munch Museum and art vandalisms at museums and statues: Rijksmuseum. Little Mermaid
• Afghanistan libraries, archives & Museum

• Coming back to gender based violence Taharrush @ Tahrir Square

One opinion

I was recently confronted with one opinion piece (It is different than my own point of view) at one discussion page.:

It's a much large paragraph so shortened as much possible and changed to address technicalities: "... Is Verifiability sufficient for inclusion? The problem statement is what objective criteria in term of sources and beyond verifiability can be used to establish relevance. Would logical relevance be way too inclusive? For example presume One out of five women are victim of intimate partner violence in France is certainly logically relevant to the subject of France and whatever verifiable figures in official statistics.... The problem is that, based on logical relevance, the entire subject of intimate partner violence should be covered in details in the France article. Where should Wikipedia article stop, assuming that Wikipedians start at all?... This is a very simple question that one asks here. .." ( Since discussion at other forum is not closed Ref not given to avoid charges of 'forum shopping')

The above is different than my own point of view but mentioning here for benefit of other users to take rational call on the basis what they think. The above para is changed a bit to address technicalities maintaining essence of the argument in midst of ongoing discussion.

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 08:33, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

An art theft is directly related to the location (a museum), so is not a comparable situation. A terrorist attack which is aimed at a certain location isn't comparable as well. When the location of an incident is not really of importance to the incident, the best solution is to mention the incident at the location page, and to have a separate page for the incident (if it is notable of course, which doesn't seem an issue here). Fram (talk) 09:37, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

• Comment (It's difficult to know where to put a comment as the structure above is fairly complicated.) : I agree with the original poster that the current section Minar-e-Pakistan#2021_mass_sexual_assault is inappropriately long and detailed for an article about the site where the assault took place. Draft:2021 Minar-e-Pakistan mass sexual assault looks good, and a brief mention of the assault, with a source and a link, as is done at Times_Square#Incidents, would be just right. PamD 09:48, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
• Comment. I agree with PamD. Innisfree987 (talk) 10:38, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
• Comment A question related to encyclopedic philosophy.

While in Wikipedia we consider notability of title preferably be of permanent/ long duration nature and I agree with that. But relevance of content in various sections may have a time value changing as per audience interest? Like in case of USA when voting rights for women were being discussed those generation, later as waves of feminism came audience of those generation would have more interest in contemporary issues. Similarly audience of Article Minar e Pakistan would be interested in knowing more within the article too about related contemporary incidence a little more than just a briefest information.

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 14:08, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

The entire debate and media reaction surrounding the sexual assaults has nothing to do with Minar-e-Pakistan itself. The only thing that is related to the structure is that the sexual assault that happened there and it can be covered in just a sentence or two. The details of Pakistani's society's reaction to sexual assault are probably more relevant at Violence against women in Pakistan (where they should still nonetheless be covered in a WP:DUE manner).VR _talk 14:59, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

Readers interested in in-depth coverage can consult the link to the content WP:FORK, for which there appears to be a consensus here. Innisfree987 (talk) 22:53, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for suggestion, this technicality has been addressed now. Let us move on to main question of encyclopedic merit, what objective criteria in term of sources and beyond verifiability can be used to establish relevance? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bookku (talk • contribs) 03:10, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

No thanks, we have resolved the content question for this entry. Further questions should be addressed to relevant policy pages or the WP:Village Pump, so as not to WP:BLUDGEON this entry’s talk page. Innisfree987 (talk) 03:20, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

The objective criteria to establish relevance which I would attempt to prove across articles in due course, may be with some amendments as discussions move on. I am using examples of instances other than crime against women also, to bring measure of objectivity.

Brief:

1) Objective of fulfilling curiosity, 2)Measure of 'generational time value', 3) Scale of normality, 4) Scale of severity in case of incidences, 5) Boasting about fundamentals Vs. unexpected contrast, 6)Measure of Sanctity and breach there of, 7) Balance of criticism and answers to the criticism

Detail explanation with examples:

1) Other than collation of information and knowledge, encyclopedias serve objective of fulfilling curiosity where information/ knowledge is available.Serves indirect but substantial purpose of 'do you know?'

2) Measure of 'curiosity' brings in measure of 'generational time value'

Example: Reference to 'Jury system' is relevant and important to the article on U.S. justice system, since the system is still practiced. In south Asia in colonial times jury system was there which has been discontinued. Encyclopedic notability for historic usage of jury system in colonial times still remains in separate encyclopedic article. But present generations will be less curious about historic jury system in South Asia so as generation changes relevance reduces one can relegate information to secondary encyclopedic article. But where curiosity is existent relevance remains.

3) Scale of normality : Encyclopedic articles should answer what is.. too normal, normal, abnormal and too abnormal.

Example: A functioning democratic house of senate/ congress/ parliament member behave peacefully or not so peacefully can have a mention. In some parliaments houses members are reported tearing documents in some even throwing of chairs takes place, in some cases Autocrats like Hitler, Lenin take control of those houses some time, supporters behave as in case of Capitol Hill to hold the house hostage, in some cases terrorists attacked parliament houses as in case of Indian Parliament.

4) Scale of severity in case of incidences. An incidence of pick pocketing or stalking is too less severe to be considered of encyclopedic relevance. But groping mentioned in Mosque Me Too or sexual abuses whenever happen in precincts of Churches, Mosques, Temples and Madrasa or Schools those are considered serious and gain encyclopedic relevance. It was 9/11 severity brings relevance of attack on those towers articles.

5) Boasting about fundamentals Vs. unexpected contrast

Example 1 A theft by professional thief presents less contrast, A theft by notables eg. corruption at higher level than that of lower level presents more of unexpected contrast so that brings relevance.

Example 2 Ogling by Trump and Ogling by Obama both would count as examples of differing encyclopedic relevance in article about Ogling being contrast to expected behavior of American president. But it may be considered less severe to mention in the article about American presidents. Whether it is Bill Clinton or numerous sexual escapades high UK officials even consensual ones are considered unexpected hence bring in a measure of encyclopedic relevance in related articles. In Las Vegas ordinary fellow going to striptease game club is just normal will have lesser relevance to encyclopedic article but a Prince of UK or Thailand bring in much more relevance since a contrast to expectation is being presented.

Example 3: A naturist woman putting down clothes for recreation , a religious nudity in certain religion are too common and expected normal behaviours at those locations their encyclopedic relevance will be on account of normal behaviour. But a woman uses nudity as measure of protest gets relevance. or instances of forced nudity bring different relevance.

Example 4:Violence by drug dealer gangs presents less contrast to the expectation. Violence tactics by any Buddhists in Sri lanka, Myanmar brings encyclopedic relevance since being unexpected. Similarly other religion proclaims itself peaceful but existent violence or terrorism is contrast of claim or boasting that religions are peaceful brings relevance.

6) Sanctity and breach there of

Example: In Pakistan later generation leadership of Muslim league made political sloganeering at Mausoleum of Jinnah. They thought that is their democratic expression but other side of spectrum thought that as undermining sanctity of Mausoleum of founder of a nation and the controversy brings encyclopedic relevance in the article Mausoleum of Jinnah. Prayer houses whether in Mecca or in Istanbul they are associated with some value of sanctity and their historic or modern time, the instances of seizures bring in encyclopedic relevance in the concerned encyclopedic articles.

Sexual misconduct even in ordinary school premises is matter of concern and may be of encyclopedic relevance on case to case basis but certain institutions and monuments claim more sanctity there instances of breach of sanctity including majior sexual misconduct become encyclopedic point of view more relevant.

7) Balance of criticism and answers to the criticism

I hope above points help discussion on this point

Thnaks

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 05:55, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

But this is not in any way about the criticism of Minar-e-Pakistan itself. Its a criticism of Pakistani society's attitude towards women.VR _talk 16:02, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Actually my above post is more than detail enough. IMHO relevance come from sanctity of Minar e Pakistan and breach of it's sanctity by an unexpected event, and reader encyclopedic curiosity too is related. If you have a nuanced view , now deleted subsection paragraph consisted criticism of victim and media reports and again balance of that criticism. And I am not in hurry to prove the point in this article itself. We will discuss these points in various relevance related articles in due course of time.

As of now let us take a break from this discussion. At least I am taking one. Thanks

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 16:48, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

@Bookku: you have now for nearly four months and across multiple sections posted again and again, with often very hard to understand posts, about this: no one agrees with you, the situation on this article is basically resolved, and it would be best if you dropped it, or made at worst concise, to the point, concrete proposals for improvements. A rambling post with 7 examples of, well, something but without an actual proposal about this article doesn't help and is not what an article talk page is intended for. Fram (talk) 16:27, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

How do we verify this Dawn news paper ref

Greetings,

Recent Revert by Morneo06 of IP's good faith edit is valid in it's place but the ip too seem to have a point. It seems ip should have used tagged the sentence for verification failed.

Sentence in the article like 'Polished white marble used for the fourth and final platform depicts the success of the Pakistan Movement' shall need verification of reference cited

But @ the article Minar-e-Pakistan presently numbered 7th ref. As of now it reads as below

'Amna Jamal (2002) The Pakistan Day memorial. Dawn. 23 March. Retrieved 12 February 2008'

There is no URL link in the ref. We can guess it is probably 2002, March 23 article. Google and simple search @ archive did not give expected result. I do not see any reason to doubt good faith of who so ever added ref. But some of the content seem to need verification. Any ways to retrieve old article?

I have requested for help @ Wikipedia:WikiProject Resource Exchange/Resource Request but I am not sure that ref would be easily retrievable. Editors need to look for alternate references

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 04:01, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

I found the following reference that verifies the 'Polished white marble used for the fourth and final platform depicts the success of the Pakistan Movement' point:

https://tribune.com.pk/story/1215587/years-construction-minar-e-pakistan-gets-major-facelift Toofllab (talk) 09:24, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, then replace the reference with this one since this is verifiable.

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 09:48, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

Done Toofllab (talk) 14:56, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

Resolved

Stairs

Plz un 206.84.147.70 (talk) 12:21, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

how many bricks used to built it?

please give answer 182.182.4.48 (talk) 11:30, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Place where located

Located in Greater Iqbal Park previously known as Minto Park near Badshahi mosque Lahore 2400:ADC7:310E:3B00:CD0:7103:D0F5:550B (talk) 14:20, 15 February 2023 (UTC)