Talk:Military of the Nguyễn dynasty
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"Nguyen Vietnam" edit
Out of curiosity, what is the scope of this name? Because while the Nguyễn Dynasty existed from 1802 until 1945 the name "Vietnam" was only used from 1804 until 1839, from 1802 until 1804 it was called Đại Việt and after 1839 it was called Đại-Nam. Furthermore, comparable articles have titles like "Military of the Ming dynasty" and "Military of the Qing dynasty" rather than "Military of Ming China" and "Military of Qing China". --Donald Trung (talk) 22:56, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
- The Nguyen Phuc dynasty were members that made up the last Vietnamese ruling family. Before obtaining entire Vietnam in 1802, the Nguyen Phuc leaders had already been rulers of the Cochinchina polity for two hundred years. The Chinese concept of a dynasty or state shall not to be adopted upon other civilisations without careful check. Laska666 (talk) 23:01, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
- I'm just following common historiographical conventions here, but let's assume that there is a "Nguyen Vietnam" (SIC), why only use the term "Vietnam" as the country was called "Dainam" after 1839 and was called "Daiviet" from 1802 to 1804, to use the modern name would be an anachronism for most of this military's existence. Also the term "Imperial Vietnamese Army" refers to a brief 1945 modernised Vietnamese army trained by the Japanese during World War II. This article reads mostly like a somewhat sloppy translation of the Vietnamese-language Wikipedia's version but you cut out all the 1885-1945 (French domination) stuff as the Imperial Guard and the Nguyễn Army wouldn't be disbanded until the August Revolution. It seems to me that you use the term "Nguyen Vietnam" (SIC) to refer to the "Nhà Nguyễn thời đọc lập" period but use the modern term "Vietnam" anachronistic to define it. It just strikes me as odd. Also, what does "The Chinese concept of a dynasty or state shall not to be adopted upon other civilisations without careful check." mean? --Donald Trung (talk) 23:14, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
Infobox edit
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- ^ Hoàng Cơ Thụy. Việt sử khảo luận. Paris: Nam Á, 2002. Page 976.
- ^ Karl Hack and Tobias Rettig. (2006). Colonial armies in Southeast Asia. New York: Routledge. p. 133. ISBN 0-415-33413-6.
- ^ De Rode Leeuw - Armorial of Vietnam § Imperial Guard by Hubert de Vries. Retrieved: 16 August 2021.
@Koreanidentity10000:, hello and thank you for wanting to improve the infobox as I want to expand the article in the future with the later years of these military forces, but while the navy was indeed disbanded following the establishment of the French protectorates of Annam and Tonkin, the military was simply demobilised following Cần Vương movement, it wasn't completely disbanded. I think that the earlier infobox displayed more information as it listed engagements and allegiances better than the national army one, especially since the Nguyễn Dynasty state became a vassal of first France and then Japan.
I didn't revert the changes as I prefer to discuss them first. The exclusion of provincial armies is quite a big one, as I have (photographic) evidence of elephant divisions and cavalry throughout the French period, and local mandarins maintained their own command over provincial militaries throughout the French period as well (in fact they were more likely to be fighting against local rebellions than the French were).
Also an important note is that the French colonial militaries, including the Tirailleurs indochinois were completely separate from the Nguyễn Dynasty military, the French protectorates of Annam and Tonkin maintained their own provincial militaries, there were village militias, and the imperial guards, but these were all limited in number, while the government-general of French Indo-China maintained the Tirailleurs indochinois. So while both forces were active in the same country (French Indo-China), they were not a part of the same military command, though the French did de facto decide the actions of the Nguyễn Dynasty's military during this period. --Donald Trung (talk) 21:31, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
In fact, the wonderful article which you wrote "Joseon Army" also uses the military unit infobox, I think that the Nguyễn Dynasty Navy probably deserves its own separate infobox, as the numbers (men enlisted) quoted here seem to be exclusively counting ground forces and I can't find that much information about its navy. As the Nguyễn Dynasty military were treated as essentially "local units" by the French the switching allegiances of the earlier (above) infobox also convey this message better. --Donald Trung (talk) 21:41, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
@Koreanidentity10000:, going over the Treaties of Huế and reading on French policies at the time I can't find a single reference to the French disbanding any Nguyễn Dynasty military force, at most they instructed the Nguyễn to maintain only "peacetime numbers" in Tonkin as the French established their own military structures there employing indigènes that were previously in the Nguyễn military. The idea that any of these militaries were disbanded by the establishment of the French protectorates of Annam and Tonkin comes from this page's original author who conveniently left out all post-1885 history when translating this page from the Vietnamese-language Wikipedia to make it of an imagined version of the Nguyễn Vietnamese state (which wasn't dissolved by the French, as the Treaties of Huế never even hint at state extinction, nor demilitarisation). So I'd say that the previous version of the infobox (as presented here above) is probably the better version. I can't find any information about the Nguyễn Dynasty's Naval forces (though I know that they must've had them), and the military forces were only made directly subordinate to the French colonial military structure in 1891 under the orders of the Governor-General of French Indo-China, none of the Treaties of Huế changed either the structure of the functioning of the Nguyễn military. In fact, the only military facilities that were destroyed because of the Treaties seem to be military fortresses along the Huế River simply because the French wanted to not meet resistance while having a Resident-General in Huế. So I can't find any actual good sources that claim that any Vietnamese military force was disbanded in 1883, 1884, and especially 1885 which is just this page's author's imagined end date of "Nguyễn Vietnam". --Donald Trung (talk) 22:25, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
- @Donald Trung: I think there should be a page about the French Indochinese Military. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Koreanidentity10000 (talk • contribs)
- My main issue with the current infobox is that it assumes that Laska666' assertion that the "military of the Kingdom of Vietnam" (sic) was disbanded in 1885, I can't find any information like this. The Nguyễn Dynasty never had a centralised military until 1945 (when the Japanese set one up), the 1885 claim doesn't hold up, especially since this very article includes photographic evidence throughout the French domination period and the fact that the Nguyễn Dynasty still had a Ministry of War as late as 1933 (as mentioned here). The 1885 end date was purely selected to create a POV narrative where the supposed "Kingdom of Vietnam" stopped existing, but the Bảo Đại Emperor referred to "nước Nam" (渃南, the South) as a sovereign (chủ-quyền) country in his official government edicts. What did happen in 1885 was that the centralised military command in Trung Kỳ was abolished, this happened in response to the Ba Dinh uprising / Cần Vương Rebellion, two (2) years earlier the centralised command in Bắc Kỳ was abolished, but local mandarins still had their own military forces and militias.
- The military of the Nguyễn Dynasty is a complicated thing and this article barely does it justice, especially after the 1885 supposed "end date". I simply don't have the reference works on the Nguyễn military after this period, but all the sources I can find don't mention a 1885 full abortion into French Indo-China's military apparatus, simply that the Vietnamese were obligated to provide a number of soldiers. The lines between the Nguyễn and the French during the protectorate period are very blurry and this is especially true for military affairs. Even indigenous peoples like those in the Sip Song Chau Tai still maintained their own tribal militaries until the conquest by the Democratic Republic of Vietnam. --Donald Trung (talk) 08:24, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
Why I changed the infobox edit
- ^ Hoàng Cơ Thụy.Việt sử khảo luận. Paris: Nam Á, 2002. Page 976.
- ^ a b Karl Hack and Tobias Rettig. (2006). Colonial armies in Southeast Asia. New York: Routledge. p. 133. ISBN 0-415-33413-6.
I've restored the "military division" infobox to replace the one to the right of / above here for the following reasons. According to the Socialist Republic of Vietnam's Government Ministry of National Defense in its article "Lực lượng vũ trang nhà Nguyễn (1558 - 1945)" the Nguyễn military was continuously an organisation from 1558 to 1945, this would mean that the Nguyễn military was a division of the Revival Lê Dynasty's military until 1789 (and technically until 1802, as the Gia Long Emperor still stylised himself as a King within the Lê's Empire until then). Then it was a division of the French Indo-Chinese federation's military apparatus from 1885 until 1945. This means that in its 387 (three-hundred-and-eighty-seven) years of existence it was only a "national military" for 83 (eighty-three), and this is excluding local militias under provincial and communal administration. Also the other infobox allows for way more wiggle room, including engagements, medals, allegiances, Etc. As for the flag of the Nguyễn dynasty Vs. "flags of Colonial Empires", well technically the yellow flag with the French flag in it is the flag of the Nguyễn Dynasty as the two (2) countries of French Annam and French Tonkin and the other flag is the flag of the "independent" Empire of Vietnam.
As for the unsourced dates of disbanding of the army and navy, well this is not true. Yes a large part of the Nguyễn military was converted into French units and also military mandarin commanded local militias under the supervision of French residents, officially the countries of Annam and Tonkin still has their own national militaries which was relegated to police services as the Garde indigène de l'Annam and the Garde indigène du Tonkin, these were nominally still under the Emperor of the Nguyễn Dynasty and I have a document (on the Wikimedia Commons) where the Bảo Đại Emperor awards a White European officer in the Garde indigène for building a fortress in the Hoàng Sa archipelago indicating that the Nguyễn Dynasty navy was still intact in 1939.
Now from 1891 the command structure put the military under the command of the Governor-General of French Indochina, but legally the Garde indigène was still a part of the apparatus of the French protectorate of Annam and the French protectorate of Tonkin.
Note that the Garde civil indigène de l'Annam and the Garde civil indigène du Tonkin were actually fully French forces and also were relegated to simple police duties. As for after 1891 half of the Nguyễn Dynasty's military was composed out of White people. But I'm talking here about the legal (de jure) status of the Nguyễn military. Also as the Emperor of the Nguyễn Dynasty still signed off on documents relating to the Garde indigène in Annam until 1945 it's safe to say that he was the de jure supreme commander while the de facto were the Resident-Superior of Annam and the Governor-General of French Indochina.
All divisions like the Imperial Guards, Provincial armies and militias, Siege, Elephant, Cavalry, and Infantry have been documented through photographic evidence after French rule. Again, this article just mostly required additional information being added about this military after 1885 as the original author of this page tried to push a point of view where all institutions of the Nguyễn Dynasty were supposedly disbanded in 1885 with the signing of the Treaty of Tientsin. Also, I'd trust the Vietnamese military historians employed by the Vietnamese Government and foreign military historians more than books about the general history of Vietnam by foreign authors, specialised sources by military experts are better than general sources that might not be well researched in every specific area.
The current infobox also allows for different information like awards and decorations, for example in Chinese cultural countries (China, Japan, Korea, the Ryūkyū islands, and Vietnam) the main military award was the "Cash coin of Honour" while later the French introduced a number of European-style awards.
Overal, the Division of a larger military makes sense for all periods excluding only the 1802 to 1883 period, or 1884 if you want to count the ratification of the Treaty of Huế. And nominally until 1891.
Also, another error to note about the infobox to the right / above infobox is the claim that there was a Governor-General of French Indochina in 1885, this post wasn't established until 1887. This was because with the Treaty of Huế of 1883 and later the ratified one of 1884 the French established the position of "Resident-General of Annam and Tonkin", this was because the French treated the Nguyễn Dynasty as a federation of two (2) countries (Annam and Tonkin) and later the Nguyễn Dynasty became "a federation within a federation" when French Indo-China was established. But nominally speaking the Southern Court maintained nominal independence over military affairs until 1891.
Also note that the Nguyễn Dynasty still had a Ministry of War (兵部, Binh Bộ) until 1933, my hypothesis is that it was merged together with the Ministry of Punishments (刑部, Hình Bộ) to form the new Ministry of Justice (部司法, Bộ Tư pháp) as the Nguyễn Dynasty military was only allowed to perform police duties since 1884, so it would make sense for these two (2) systems to be merged. But again as I don't have any sources to back this up I can't add it here.
Note that I'm planning on writing more about the military institutions of the Nguyễn Dynasty, the military of French Indo-China, and all of their awards, decorations, and medals in the future, but for now I hope that these additions have made it clear that the original (POV-pushing) article was misleading in a lot of ways and deliberately omitted a lot of information. --Donald Trung (talk) 13:49, 28 June 2022 (UTC)