Talk:Milan Raspopović

A few reasons for speedy deletion

• The article content is not supported by reliable references, i.e. the references are interviews given by Raspopovic to local newspapers Politika, Telegraf, Vreme, etc
• Reference [4]=[10] = the two different bookseler's links to the same biography
• A number of references is irrelevant to this biography: [21],[22], not a reference [9], not accessible [12], not verifying the statement [13], [14], not a reference [19]
• The statement Previous doctoral work of Professor Dr Milan Raspopovic was in cosmic ray physics. The research was interrupted and then abandoned after the funding for cosmic and particle physics research, provided by the Government of Yugoslavia, came to a halt. has zero information value and has no place in a seriously written biography.
• The false claim: He was one of the founders of the Mathematical Gymnasium Belgrade in Belgrade, Actually it was the city of Belgrade Board of Education. Raspopovic was just a member of a group of seven people responsible for writing a proposal for the opening of Mathematical Gymnasium in Belgrade.
• False claim: Raspopovic was awarded the highest award in Serbia – Sretenjski orden (Sretenje Award) the Sretenjski orden (actually Sretenje Order) is one of the six existing Serbian orders, not the highest one. Raspopovic was awarded Sretenje Order Third Class. No need for [15],[16],[17, and [18]. See tle last table entry
• The section International results is about of the school success which is no way an assessment or an appraisal of his pedagogocal, educational or managerial achievements.
• The claim "Raspopović taught university level courses at University of Belgrade, University of Niš, University of Kragujevac, and University of Montenegro[10]". cannot be verified at the databases of thecounted universities. There is no curricula in past and present mentioning any class taught by Raspopovic, nor Raspopovic was a member of a faculty of the counted universities. Reference [10] is his biography referenced by no one. The comment below the second picture (All three were university professors) is false.
• The claim "Raspopović is the author or co-author of over 30 textbooks and collections of assignments in physics, for all educational levels, from elementary schools to university level.[3][10][5]" is true up to "for elementary and secondary schools"
• The claim "As a co-author, Raspopović signed textbooks with Academician Dragiša M. Ivanović – ...[12] Ivan Aničin .... [13] ...,[14] Dragomir Krpić ..." is not supported by references [12], [13], and [14]
• Raspopovic was a member of the Yugoslav Communist Party until its dissolution in 1990 and after he become a member of Milosevic's Socialist Party of Serbia what secured his director and principal position at the school for over more than 30 years.--109.93.102.172 (talk) 18:11, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
  • • None of the above are reasons for speedy deletion which is for outright spam. The only deletion option is WP:AFD, as it has been prodded before. Also if you are Taribuk (talk · contribs) you are blocked from editing.Atlantic306 (talk) 18:31, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
      • Sorry to see this adverse response. I just left a bona fide comment, which is not a spam. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.93.102.172 (talk) 18:38, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

Discussion about the title of doctoral dissertation

"The impact of Ludwig Boltzmann’s theories and concepts on physics and philosophy” is not the title of Raspopovic's thesis, rather "Importance of Boltzmann's constant to physics". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.178.106.120 (talk) 01:14, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Actually no, the original title (in Serbo_Croatian) was: "Uticaj učenja i shvatanja Ludviga Bolcmana na razvoj fizike i filozofije".

This translates to:

"The impact of Ludwig Boltzmann’s teachings and understandings on physics and philosophy", or "The impact of Ludwig Boltzmann’s theories and concepts on physics and philosophy".

Literally, the original doctoral thesis translates to: "The impact, on physics and philosophy, of Ludwig Boltzmann’s teachings and understandings".

Previous doctoral work of Professor Dr Milan Raspopovic was in cosmic ray physics. This research was interrupted and then abandoned after the funding for cosmic and particle physics research, provided by the Government of Yugoslavia, came to a halt.

Sources: - book -- title: "Vizionarstvom ka vrhu: Stvaralacki put Milana O. Raspopovica" -- title translated: "Visionaries at the top: Creative path of Milan O. Raspopovic" -- author: Prof. Dr. Miloje Rakocevic -- publisher: Zavod za izdavanje udzbenika -- publisher translated: State Institute for textbooks publishing -- book source: http://www.knjizara.zavod.co.rs/vizionarstvom-ka-vrhu-stvaral -- book source: https://www.abebooks.com/9788617181466/Vizionarstvom-vrhu-stvaralacki-put-Milana-861718146X/plp ISBN 10: 861718146X ISBN 13: 9788617181466 Publisher: Zavod za udzbenike, 2012

- book -- title: 50 years of Mathematical Gymnasium in Belgrade -- publisher: Mathematical Gymnasium Belgrade

- book -- title: 45 years of Mathematical Gymnasium in Belgrade -- publisher: Mathematical Gymnasium Belgrade

- book -- title: 40 years of Mathematical Gymnasium in Belgrade -- publisher: Mathematical Gymnasium Belgrade

- book -- title: 30 years of Mathematical Gymnasium in Belgrade -- publisher: Mathematical Gymnasium Belgrade — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.91.83.14 (talk) 06:08, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Factual accuracy

The statement

Raspopović was full-time university professor...,

is false. He never got at any Serbian (Montenegrin) university the full-time university professor position. From the Serbian article we can read "У својству спољашњег сарадника држао је наставу методике физике, историје физике и филозофије природних наука..." which can be translated as: As an external associate (adjunct professor ?) he taught teaching methods of physics, history of physics and philosophy of natural sciences .... For either statement no source is given verifying the statements.

He was a Communist party member until its dissolution and the Party cell secretary in the Gymnasium, which helped him to keep the school principal position for decades.

Read here: "Gimnazija sledstveno promenama dobija ime Obrazovno-vaspitna radna organizacija matematičko-tehničke struke „Veljko Vlahović", na predlog tadašnjeg partijskog sekretara Milana Raspopovića."--Taribuk (talk) 15:27, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

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RESPONSE TO THE ABOVE FALSE CLAIMS:

The statements above are false and made by a contributor who soon after got banned - please see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Taribuk

This account has been confirmed by a CheckUser as a sock puppet of Vujkovica brdo (talk · contribs · logs), and it has been blocked indefinitely. Please refer to the sockpuppet investigation of the sockpuppeteer, and editing habits or contributions of the sock puppet for evidence. This policy subsection may also be helpful.

User Taribuk, along with his other sock puppet accounts, has modified Wikipedia article in Serbian as well, and then used parts of it to corroborate his false claims in Wikipedia article in English.

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Professor Milan Raspopovic was a full university professor since 1992.

The truth is that Professor Milan Raspopovic became a full-time professor in 1992 at the University of Nis, a large public university in Serbia (around 30,000 brick and mortar active students in all levels of study (bachelor to PhD)). The most read and eldest news company in Serbia, "Politika", in its article about Professor Raspopovic, states that Milan Raspopovic became Assistant Professor in 1982, Associate Professor in 1986, and Full Professor in 1992, at the University of Nis.

A quote from a website "World of Science" (in Serbian) announces a lecture titled "Physics in Education and in Science", by the "full time university Professor Milan Raspopovic", at the Faculty of Mathematics and Natural Sciences, University of Nis.

The original page states: "U utorak, 7. juna, na Prirodno-matematičkom fakultetz u Nišu biće održano predavanje “Fizika u nastavi i u nauci”. Predavač će biti prof. dr Milan Raspopović, redovni profesor Univerziteta u Nišu i dugogodišnji direktor Matematičke gimnazije u Beogradu, u penziji."

Translation: "On Tuesday, 7 July, at the Faculty of Mathematics and Natural Sciences of the University of Nis, a lecture will be held, titled "Physics in Education and in Science". The lecture will be given by Prof. Dr Milan Raspopovic, full-time professor of the University of Nis and a long-time Director of the Mathematical Gymnasium (Mathematical Grammar School) in Beograde, now in retirement."

The school did change its name, when the bureaucratic apparatus in Yugoslavia tried to close all gymnasia (grammar schools). All schools changed their names after the so called Stipe Suvar reform of education. Stipe Suvar was a Croatian Minister for Education and later member of the Central Committee (CC) of the League of Communists of Croatia (LCC) and of League of Communist of Yugoslavia, and later a member of the Presidency of Yugoslavia. Professor Milan Raspopovic, who was the CEO of the Experimental Schools Program and Principal of Mathematical Grammar School, managed to save the program and his school from being shut down. Forced to change the school's name into a new and long-winded name, Milan Raspopovic added the name of a famous National War Hero of Yugoslavia to school's new name, and invited the media to announce his decision on the same day the school's closure was scheduled (due to the League of Communists' view that it was too liberal in its political views at the time and "too elitist" - it was the best ranked school in the Yugoslavia soon after its inception). Hearing it on the news that the school changed its name and was named after a decorated war veteran, national hero, and an icon of the League of Communists (Veljko Vlahovic), the city of Belgrade's communist leadership decided it would be politically too dangerous to close the school that bears the name of Veljko Vlahovic.

It wasn't Milan Raspopovic who chose the new long name of the school, it was the new Stipe Suvar's law at the time. Milan Raspopovic added the national hero's name to it ("Veljko Vlahovic") and saved the school from the League of Communists' wrath (about elitism and school's political liberalism).

About Stipe Suvar, brief Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stipe_%C5%A0uvar

References

Notability

I've reviewed the references supporting the text of this article and did not find a single one appraising Raspopovic's work in the role of the Gymnasium director and principal.

From the reference [1] we see that Raspopovic was the first teacher of the physics in the school until 1970. After there are many others who taught physics. References [1] and [2] are falsely interpreted: "(Raspopovic) was one of the founders of Mathematical Gymnasium Belgrade". The founder was the Belgrade City Education Department and Raspopovic was just a member of a group of seven people responsible for writing a proposal for the opening of Mathematical Gymnasium in Belgrade.

Reference [3] shows only that Raspopovic wrote book "Ludwig Boltzmann als Physiker and Philosoph" in 1978. So, we do not know when and where Raspopovic got his PhD and what actually was the thesis title.

References [4], [5] and [6] are not about Raspopovic or his work. Reference [7] is about the awards and recognitions the Gymnasium received long after Raspopovic left this school. Reference [8] is about history of the School Mathematics department which hailed Zivota Joksimovic, the math teacher whose students achieved notable successes on International Mathematical Olympiads. Reference [9] is about the school's success at 16th International Mathematical Olympiad and reference [10] does not verify the preceding sentence (They ranked 10th in the world as a country (Serbia) and took the first place in the world as a school.[10]).

Also there are huge segments of this biography supported by no references. I've added a number of tags in order to easily locate them.

The whole section International results is about the school success, not about his managerial or educational work and appraisal of this work.--Taribuk (talk) 16:24, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

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Response to the false claims made by user Taribuk who later got banned indefinitely from Wikipedia (please see the decision here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Taribuk)

Banned user Taribuk claims there were no references "appraising Raspopovic's work in the role of the Gymnasium director and principal".

Professor Milan Raspopovic was awarded the highest award in Serbia - Sretenjski orden (Sretenje Award) - by the President of Serbia, in February 2015, for "for outstanding and exceptional merits for the Republic of Serbia and its citizens in educational and pedagogical activities" (original in Serbian: "za naročite zasluge za Republiku Srbiju i njene građane u prosvetnoj i pedagoškoj delatnosti").

Professor Milan Raspopovic is praised as the school's director. He was the CEO of the project and school's Principal for 31 years, from 1970 until his retirement in 2001. He was also the author or co-author of 95 textbooks in physics, history of physics, philosophy of physics, education, and methodology of physics.

Professor Raspopovic, along with the Academician Adnadjevic, was one of the founders of the project and, subsequently, of the school. As with everything in Yugoslavian socialist society of the time, the ownership was public and the owner was the state. Milan Raspopovic was one of the founding members of the state-wide project of experimental education in STEM. He was the author of the school's charter, of the elaborate on the need for such a school, of the elaborate on the need of advanced physics in pre-university school, member of the founding board, and, four years later, Program's CEO and school's Principal. Academician Adnadjevic and Professor Raspopovic are considered as founders of the school for all practical matters, while the State was considered the final owner.

Professor Milan Raspopovic became a full-time professor in 1992 at the University of Nis, a large public university in Serbia (around 30,000 brick and mortar active students in all levels of study (bachelor to PhD)). The most read and eldest news company in Serbia, "Politika", in its article about Professor Raspopovic, states that Milan Raspopovic became Assistant Professor in 1982, Associate Professor in 1986, and Full Professor in 1992, at the University of Nis.

And so on... The list of false claims of a banned user Taribuk is tool long. User Taribuk was spreading misinformation and was banned from Wikipedia with a good reason.

References

Autobiography, full of unsourced content

• References, links

Clicking [1], [2], [6], [7], [8], [11], [19] and [20] will end up with Error 404

[4] and [10] are the same reference

[15], [16], [17] and [18] are about the same "awarded the Sretenje Order"

References/links [12], [13] and [14] are not supporting anything written in the paragraph starting with "Raspopović co-authored textbooks with...", the Textbooks section

Bottom line - we can retain only one of the [4] or [10] and of [15] - [18] and freely delete the rest (15 of them altogether). References [3] and [5] are actually mr Raspopovic's interviews given to some journalists published in the Politika dayly newspaper, therefore not independent and reliable sources.

• The story about his would-be academic career: Raspopović taught university level courses at University of Belgrade, University of Niš, University of Kragujevac, and University of Montenegro. is referenced by his biography written by a jornalist. Reference [3] claims U zvanje docenta izabran je 1982. godine, za vanrednog profesora 1986. godine i za redovnog 1990. na Filozofskom fakultetu u Nišu. which, freely translated, says: he was elected assistant professor in 1982, associate professor (1986) and full professor (1990) at Faculty of philosophy, University of Nis. I contacted the Faculty of philosophy asking about Raspopovic's academic affiliation with them. The answer was: mr Raspopovic was never affiliated with us. In addition, for some who was a full professor during his career, we should have a long list scientific articles and books pubilshed by renown publisher or in scientific conferences proceedings found. I was able to find just two books that should fall in that category - numerous primary and secondary school text books he (co)authored excluded. There was no single academic source teling us about his academic posts (research or teaching) that I was able to locate.
• References [3] and [5] are not supporting He is also an active writer and continued to revise and publish textbooks ... December 2010 - The Retirement section.
• Education - false statement: Milan Raspopović received his doctoral titles in Physics and in Philosophy from University of Belgrade. His previous doctoral work was in cosmic ray physics. In the next sentence The research was interrupted and then abandoned after the funding for cosmic and particle physics research, provided by the Government of Yugoslavia, came to a halt he denies statement about his previous doctoral work. Reference [3] does not say anything about his "previous doctoral work".
• The Career section, false statement: He was one of the founders of the Mathematical Gymnasium Belgrade in Belgrade. In one of the publications/yearbook of the Mathematical high school in Belgrade it was written that the founder of that school was the Belgrade Board od Education and mr Raspopovic was one of two, who wrote curricula for courses of physics for the same school. For more insight in this issue see here
• Spoken languages section - meaningless and unsourced.
• The International results section. Mr Raspopovic uncritically links the success and existence of this school to his affiliation with that school.
• From Serbian Wikipedia: "Позицију директора школе је држао дуго година захваљујући свом чланству у СКЈ а затим чланству у Милошевићевој СПС." Translation: (Raspopovic) held the head of school position for a long while thaks to his membership in the Communist party and after, his membership in the Milosevic's Socialist party of Serbia. Some hint that this might be true I found here: "Osnovan Aktiv prosvetnih radnika JUL-a", naslov je u "Politici" od 13. aprila ove godine. ... Drug direktor beogradske Matematičke gimnazije prof. dr Milan Raspopović, reče na tom sastanku da je osnivanje ovog Aktiva "istorijska ideja koja će imati veliku ulogu u jugoslovenskom vaspitno-obrazovnom sistemu". In short, Politika dayly reported that a cell of JUL educators was established on April 13 1999. (JUL = Jugoslav United Left, a Communist-like organization led by the wife of Slobodan Milosevic). Comrade Milan Raspopovic, the head of Mathematical high school in Belgrade, said, at this cell meeting that establishment of this cell will be of a historical significance to the Jugoslav educational system.

Bocin kolega (talk) 16:41, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

404s can be fixed using Internet Archive. That should be attempted before they are removed and will give more evidence of the reliability or unreliability of the facts. Also newspaper interviews are permitted as references and should not be removed even though they may not contribute to notability decisions, regards Atlantic306 (talk) 23:11, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

@Atlantic306:As to the 404s, I wasn't able to fix them using the wayback machine. You are free to do it if you disagree with me and know how to do it. The newspaper interviews can be accepted only if providing an information that cannot be questioned or is about the interviewed person's private life. As to the Raspopovic's wouldbe academic career, we must have strong acadamic, verifiable sources. My question about his affiliation with the Faculty of philosophy, University of Nis was answered negatively. In addition, an interview shall be supported by a secondary, independent source which must exists if it is about someone's public office (the academic career in this case). Bocin kolega (talk) 06:51, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

What was done and what was left to do

• I removed all unsourced content and all 404s not replacable by the wayback archives.
• Unnecessary replicated refs removed
• For the athor's story about his academic career requested valid academic sources
• I left the International results section unchanged but I think it shall be greatly trimmed. All the text, which does not have direct link to Raspopovic work, shall be removed. He was the principal and teacher in physics and I do not see which way he contributed to the school succes in the IMO competitions?--Bocin kolega (talk) 10:04, 13 February 2023 (UTC)