Talk:Mikis Theodorakis/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

"Enas Omiros"

Isn't it "O Omiros"? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:54, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

I belive that: O Omiros = Homer, so Enas Omiros to distinguish the play.

But what I meant was, isn't the name of the play "O Omiros"? I have two albums of the music, one sung by Theodorakis and one by Farandouri (both in storage at the moment, unfortunately), and I was sure that they both used the definite article — but checking the Web shows me that I was wrong. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 16:41, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

It's "Enas Omiros", and it is the title of the Greek translation of the play by Brendan Behan: "The Hostage". First performance on 12.04,1962 in Athens.

Plays

Should something be said about Ippies (Aristophanes); what exactly is these? Is it based on a real play by Aristophanes, is it an alternative name for a real play, or what? I can't find any trace of this except in the context of Theodorakis. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 08:53, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Copyedit tag

I removed the {{copyedit}} tag. I started following the article a few weeks ago, proofread it twice, and (unlike most Wikipedia articles!) found no grammar, usage, or spelling errors. I'm not sure why it was tagged; perhaps it was cleaned up but the editor did not remove the tag. This article reads very well. Good job all!

If someone wants to tag the article with a different (content-based) cleanup tag based on the discussion above, I have no opinion on that and the subject is not an area within my expertise. --MCB 06:14, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm afraid I didn't see this comment immediately, so replaced the tag with an explanation to your own Talk page. I have in mind such things as a paragraph starting "So do also his song cycles based on poems by famous Greek authors" (which is both an odd way to start a paragraph and grammatically odd). A lot of the language also needs to be toned down a bit (on the cusp of copyedit & cleanup). There's not much that remains to be done, but until it is, the tag serves to remind me and others. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 16:04, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

No problem... I was just on copyedit patrol and trying to get through a number of the articles on the list. Glad to leave it to the editors who are familiar with the article. (And yes, that "So do also his song cycles..." paragraph got by me.) Cheers, MCB 21:10, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

That's OK — and I think that I've done enough now to remove the template. Ther are still one or two slightly unhappy bits, but nothing really bad. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:46, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Most important composer

The article heading says that Theodorakis is "the most important Greek music composer of the 20th century, and one of the most significant in the world". Although I'm not an expert and do recognize that value judgements are always subjective, I think that both these statements need to be supported by citations. Who's to say that Theodorakis is more important than Skalkottas and Kalomiris? I think that some kind of reference is also needed for the second statement, that he's among the most significant in the world.--Atavi 09:31, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

I was thinking in terms of classical music, so I forgot to mention Manos Hadjidakis.--Atavi 09:34, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

I intend to change the text to read "Theodorakis is one of the most important Greek music composers of the 20th century." If anyone has any objections, please use the talk page.--Atavi 18:31, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I just realised that 194.219.192.246, who is apparently a Iannis Xenakis fan, has already changed the text.--Atavi 19:51, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Theodorakis is not only a composer but a politician and a good one, too. He also fought for his country against German army in 1940. He is a hero, too. Above all he is a Ellinas ideal.

American Copley Music Prize?

I have been unable to find any information on this "American Copley Music Prize". Cn anyone help? --Janice Rowe

No Google hits for "Copley Music Prize" that don't mention Theodorakis... Could it be misspelt? I tried some obvious variations, but came up with nothing. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:25, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

This was probably an award from the William and Noma Copley Foundation, which later changed it's name to the Cassandra Foundation. Darius Milhaud was one of the foundation's officers/directors. gives more info. ColinJapan (talk) 11:52, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

BLP violations

Removed this [1], unacceptable BLP violation. If the problem persists, I will request the page be semied. Athenean (talk) 16:31, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Nobel Peace Prize

• In 2000, he was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize.

Being nominated for the Peace Prize is an honor, but it is not official and not necessarily prestigious. Any national legislator or about a third of the university professors in the world can make a nomination, and there have been as many as 140 some years. Nominators are requested to keep their nominations secret, so it's only those wishing publicity who make announcements. Altogether, I see no reason to keep it. No offense to the subject, this is a general Nobel Peace Prize "nominees" issue. -Willmcw 07:06, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

Cleanup and titles

I cleaned this up to Wiki standards, I think. Any interested party can check my work and revise as necessary. I added titles to the roman numeral headings. Feel free to rewrite as necessary. DanMS 23:44, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

---

Cleaned up the language here & there, added some links and made a few minor enhancements. Nothing, I believe, that has any bearing on the Disputed discussion here. I did, however, remove or attribute av few POV praises for Mr. T's artistic prowess. I agree he is a splendid composer/artist, but his worldwide acclaim is such that it needs no emphasis in this article. In short, I don't think anybody will be offended by the edit. (Asav)

---

This article seems to be badly vandalized, with all kinds of spurious 'facts', eg, references to a science fiction television show JM516 (talk) 06:04, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

BLP vio

This [2] is a clear cut BLP violation by User:Soosim. The claims made are extremely serious, but the source used is highly partisan (for example it makes the familiar equation that any criticism of Israel is automatically anti-Semitism, and we all know what the "Foundation for the Defense of Democracies is a typical neo-con think tank). As WP:BLP makes clear from the very start, "Be very firm about the use of high quality source", and I intend to be. There is no way this source meets the requirement. Any more reverts using this source and I am going straight to WP:BLPN. Athenean (talk) 01:43, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

there are no claims being made - it is what he said. it has nothing to do with anti-israel = anti-semitism. it is simply a quote of what he said. anyway, i re-added it with a different reference. there are dozens out there. so, it is clear that it is notable and noteworthy. thanks. Soosim (talk) 14:18, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Have you seen the interview? No. Stop using partisan sources. The jpost is just as partisan as your previous source. BLP violations are serious business. Athenean (talk) 17:23, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

jerusalem post is a reliable source. please stop removing it. ask others. thanks. Soosim (talk) 16:33, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Jerusalem Post is ultra-partisan. Going straight to BLPN with this, hopefully it will stop the disruption. By the way, removing other people's talkpage postings is extremely rude. Don't do it again. Athenean (talk) 18:59, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Mikis Theodorakis was minister in the Goverment which recognized the State of Israel

I added that Mikis Theodorakis was minister of the Goverment which recognized the State of Israel (21 May 1990), against the protest of many political actors and political parties in Greece that period. Stavreas (talk) 15:27, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Mikis as a fighter during occupation protected Jews families. Stavreas (talk) 15:42, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

"anti-semitic" comments

There is a problem with the allegation that Theodorakis' recent comments during an interview were "reported as anti-semitic" [3]. Anti-semitic according to whom? The Jpost points to the Simon Wiesenthal Center. If so, then that must be mentioned. Also, it seems odd to say that Theodorakis made the comments on Greek TV and then say "according to the Jerusalem Post...". This makes it seem like the Jerusalem post is a Greek tv channel.

I don't understand your last point at all. I'm all for proper attribution, but without the JPost attribution it makes it sound like we are quoting Mikis which we are not, we are quoting JPost. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 01:35, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough, but my first point still stands. Athenean (talk) 01:37, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Here something new from the homepage of the Central Board of Jewish Communities in Greece:

The declaration of Theodorakis: http://www.kis.gr/en/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=421:mikis-theodorakis-letter-to-the-central-board-of-jewish-communities-in-greece&catid=12:2009&Itemid=41

And the answer of Jewish Board: http://www.kis.gr/en/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=422:the-response-of-the-central-board-of-jewish-communities-in-greece&catid=12:2009&Itemid=41

Serbs, Serbia and NATO bombing of Serbia 1999

Mikis was very active in campaign against NATO bombing of Serbia, so can this section be add as well as along this his great love to Serbian people and so on.

“Every person should, at this time, be praying and struggling for peace.”

This sentence is at the end of a statement in support of Palestine. But this prayer and struggle does not only concern Palestine. When Serbia was being bombed (1999) Theodorakis and his orchestra took part in the large demonstration in Syntagma (Constitution Square, Athens). He then went to Belgrade and gave a large concert in support of the Serbian people. He appealed to the International Court of Justice at the Hague and filed charges against the political and military leadership of NATO. source: http://www.loizidis.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=147&Itemid=116&lang=en

109.121.39.201 (talk) 17:17, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Neutrality disputed

Apart from the serious issue with the lack of citations, this article, as it stands right now, does not look like WP:NPOV to me. The article says that he is "speaking out against any aggressor and oppressor". This is not an NPOV statement. If he used these words himself, then the article should say that he is "speaking out against what he termed aggressors and oppressors", or "what he considers aggressors and oppressors". I understand that some people do see these characterisations as the truth or as a characterisation that brings what some people would view as "justice", but in Wikipedia we do not care about the truth, we do not care about justice, here we only care about collecting facts from references in realiable sources, and sources must be identified. Saying "oppressive" is POV, a subjective statement. Saying "what this person considers oppressive" is the true, scientific fact free from any political agenda and we should stick to the facts. We are not here to write essays. We are here to collect verifiable facts from sources, identifying them in citations and in the text. Of course there are many other problematic statements in the article as well, but I hope that the example I given you is enough to help you understand what we do and don't do here in Wikipedia. NerdyNSK (talk) 12:52, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Another example of a POV statement: "prolific writing". Where is the reference? If something is on Wikipedia it must be verifiable in a reference. Has he said that his writing is prolific? If so, cite it and say "what he termed prolific writing". Has another person said that his writing is prolific? If so, cite it and say "what is considered prolific writing according to X". NerdyNSK (talk) 13:04, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

And note one more that we do not care whether the statement is factually correct, we only care about whether it appears in some source and whether we cite the source and state our facts in the correct way (ie saying who said what, when, and in which book or other source). NerdyNSK (talk) 13:06, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

This article is clearly POV. 1) An introduction should be an overview. Here, there is so much detail about exceptions to his left-wing stance, that his strong association with left-wing causes (member of ELAS, fought against the British in the Dekemvriana, opposed the Junta, recorded the ELAS hymn, recorded the Song of Ares etc, wrote many other resistance type material) is lost competely. 2) Needless to say, there is no mention of his participation in the Dekemvriana. Actually, didn't he say that the fact that he fought in the Dekemvriana was a reason for him not to be given the Nobel Peace Prize? Nor of his singing recording the above-mentioned songs of ELAS and Ares.

I propose putting a neutrality warning until this is cleaned up.Bougatsa42 (talk) 18:45, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

removal of tags without discussion

athenean - i ask you to please self-revert the removal of all three tags which were places there with 100% sincerity. i am sure you were honestly mistaken thinking that they were 'drive by', but alas, they were real.

why would you do that? look at the ref list yourself and see. if it is a problem, then at least, let's discuss it. thanks. Soosim (talk) 15:40, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

The way it works, since it seems you don't know, is that the onus of discussion is on the one placing the tags. Drive-by tag placement refers to placing of tags without any discussion, a form of disruption. I am thus well within my rights to remove them, and perhaps you should rename the title of this section "addition of tags without discussion". They are also highly nonsensical as there are 20 sources that are independent of Theodorakis in the article. So much for your "sincerity". Athenean (talk) 16:04, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

using a letter to the editor as a RS?

dr k, my friend. this link: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/13/solidarity-campaign-people-greece is to a letter to the editor. it says so on the page. no one would ever accuse the guardian of not being a reliable source, but LTE's are not RS. they might be able to be used in the author's name as the author's opinion only, but even then, it is not so clear. so, please revert - not sure why you insist on using a letter to the editor? maybe you can explain it to everyone? thanks. Soosim (talk) 16:06, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

I replaced it with twelve others. Soosim, either you like it or not Mikis is a famous composer. So no more talking about obvious things. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 17:02, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

terrific! 12 is much better than 1. well done! and on wikipedia, nothing is obvious without RS. oh well. Soosim (talk) 18:10, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

No. There are obvious things, which may escape you. It seems the rest of the world knows that Mikis is famous but that has somehow escaped you. And what's worse you come to the talkpage asking for references for clearly obvious things. On top of that you declare that you are unable to find any sources for these obvious things and then start tag bombing the article and edit-warring. I think you would be well advised to slow down and take it easy. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 20:54, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

i am doing it slowly, and clearly. not wholesale and haphazardly. i appreciate your fine compliments on my skills. but no, not edit-warring. i edited a perfectly good edit, and then others came along to start the war part of it. so please, be careful with your well chosen and well edited words. Soosim (talk) 08:45, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

abc news dead link

ah, dr k - thank you for pointing out that "we" don't remove dead links, but fix them. if you had read what i wrote in the comment when i removed it, i said that searched high and low throughout googleland, but couldn't find it. so i removed it. if you have a real source for that comment, great. please share with all of us. thanks. Soosim (talk) 16:09, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

I already did. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 17:00, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

I searched high and low throughout googleland like you say and I found eleven new references. Is that reliable enough for you now? Obviously you didn't search high enough or low enough, but whatever the case may be just ask me next time. I'll be glad to help. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 17:43, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

thank you for helping improve this article. there are so many RS missing throughout. we will get to them all and make it an excellent, well-sourced article. by the way, why is the dead abc news link still there? don't you think we should remove it? ok? Soosim (talk) 18:12, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

No, you proved that you are not able to get any reliable sources. Remember "Googleland"? i said that searched high and low throughout googleland, but couldn't find it. I was the one who got every single one of them. So don't speak in plural: we will get to them all and make it an excellent.... If that means that you will go tagging the article at will expecting me to find the sources, I advise you to rethink your strategy. Except if you are going to start looking for reliable sources yourself; that would be a good thing but given your skill searching for sources in "Googleland", I am not too hopeful. However you seem skilled enough in tag bombing just for the fun of defacing the article and that is not a good thing. And your start today by removing links and known facts is not very hopeful either. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 19:10, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

hey dr k - thanks again, as i said above, for your fine and kind words about my skills. oh, and the 'we' comment you made is quite intriguing. is this your article? i had thought it belongs to all of wikipedia, and every editor out there. and so, yes, we (all of us) will make this article a real encyclopedic article about the "world's most famous greek composer". no worries, and i appreciate your help in doing so. Soosim (talk) 08:47, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Hey Soosim, cut the BS. When you say "we" improve the article and "I" do the referencing while "you" are WP:TAGBOMBing it, that's not "we", it's only "me" doing the hard work. Expecting "you" to do some constructive work is not "owning" the article, it is what the wiki collaboration is supposed to be about. So spare me your unfair and underhanded attacks coated in your trademark faux kindness. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 09:30, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

poorly sourced or not sourced at all

hi dr k and athenena! this part of the article has no sources at all:

1.1 Early years

Mikis Theodorakis was born on the Greek island of Chios and spent his childhood years in different provincial Greek cities such as Mytilene, Cephallonia, Patras, Pyrgos and Tripoli. His father, a lawyer and a civil servant was from Galata (Crete) and his mother was from an ethnically Greek family in Çeşme (in what is today Turkey).

don't you think we really need RS there? there are so many to choose from, i thought you would know which is/are best. and i really thought when you removed the "cite needed" tag, that you would actually put in a citation. but i see, alas, that you only removed the tag. pity. whatcha think, guys? Soosim (talk) 09:02, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

You seem to really love this article and since you are so good at finding sources, you have Highbeam access afterall, why don't you try to find some on your own? Why limit yourself to just tagging the article? Do you expect me to do all the hard work? Why? You should try to do something positive for a change and help out in the process. Show me what you can do. I'll wait to be surprised from the demonstration of your skill at finding sources. I have already found eleven new sources. All I'm asking you to do is go and find one or two to support the facts about Mikis' parents. Is that too difficult for you? Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 09:19, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

@Soosim: I think instead of trolling the talkpage, you would be well advised to search for sources ("high and low in googleland", as you put it). Either that or find another hobby. Athenean (talk) 09:54, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

dr k - a homework assignment. love it! and athenean: trolling? wow, what did you mean by that? Soosim (talk) 13:08, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Lol. I've got to admit you have a sense of humour. :) I appreciate that. Do you need a due date for the homework? No pressure of course. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 06:20, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Now I am concerned. You removed information about his mother, father, mother's origin, father's village and his occupation and other valuable biographical details without looking for sources. What's worse you wrote in your edit summary: removed unsourced information, added same type of info based on source., which is false. You added:

He was raised with Greek folk music, was influenced by Byzantine liturgy, and as a child had already spoke of becoming a composer.

How can this be the same type of information as:

and spent his childhood years in different provincial Greek cities such as Mytilene, Cephallonia, Patras, Pyrgos and Tripoli. His father, a lawyer and a civil servant, was from the small village of Kato Galatas in Crete and his mother, Aspasia Poulakis, was from an ethnically Greek family in Çeşme, in what is today Turkey.

which you erased? Are you reading what you are removing? This careless editing must stop, and it must stop right now. If you are unable to find sources it doesn't mean that sources do not exist. This information is very important. Please do not remove it again. Let me know if you need help finding sources instead of removing this info again. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 19:21, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

dr k - yet again, you choose to keep unsourced material in an article. i really am surprised at your behavior. in addition, what wasn't clear about my very well sourced edit? i removed unsourced info about his early years and replaced it with sourced info about his early years. why do you have a problem with that? or, like before, is it so well known by everyone that a source isn't necessary? c'mon.... Soosim (talk) 08:15, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

For someone who was previously only interested in smearing Theodorakis (and probably still is), your sudden change of heart is touching. Athenean (talk) 09:41, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

and by "smearing" you mean bring information from RS to the article? or is his the exception in wikiworld - no criticism allowed? Soosim (talk) 10:36, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

No, I meant WP:BLP violations. Athenean (talk) 11:22, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Soosim, I have asked you a simple question: Are you able to find information regarding Mikis' parents? Yes or no? If you cannot find the references let me know. I will try to find them for you. But don't remove material from the article simply because you are incapable of finding sources. And don't come to my talkpage again to bait administrators to block me for edit-warring: toddst1 - i see that dr.k. seems to be involved in edit warring quite a bit. Nice try but people are not as gullible as you think and your comment was clueless. Because YOU are edit-warring to remove information from the article which is very easy to support but you don't seem able to find sources for it. Anyway that was a matter that has already been almost clarified and it was not my fault FYI. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 17:31, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

in all my searching, no, i couldn't find it, so i replaced it with appropriate RS. and i like your rejoinder "because YOU are edit-warring". nice one. Soosim (talk) 06:07, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

No Soosim. It doesn't work that way. Remember your previous search in Googleland? Didn't work either. Now let me do my searching and I'll let you know. But please do not remove any info. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 20:54, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

I found seven so far. Is that enough? Do you understand now that you are not supposed to remove facts from this article? Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 21:13, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Now let's look at some statistics: On three occasions I have found about 22 new sources. While you on the first occasion you said:

i said that searched high and low throughout googleland, but couldn't find it.

and on the second occasion

in all my searching, no, i couldn't find it,

Grand total: 2 excuses, 0 sources. Which begs the question: Is this your idea of wiki collaboration? Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 22:25, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

And do you understand now why I kept reverting you when you were deleting valuable information from the article repeatedly? Are you still accusing me of edit-warring? Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 02:09, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

i really appreciate the positive feedback "Reinstating constructive part of Soosim's edit" thank you! Soosim (talk) 13:36, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

You are welcome Soosim. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 14:52, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Suggested material

I think we should be adding to the Political views[4] section material such as the following:

Theodorakis has expressed the view that "Everything that happens today in the world has to do with the Zionists"[5] and "American Jews are behind the world economic crisis that has hit Greece also."[6][7] The Simon Wiesenthal Center has referred to Theodorakis' comments as "obsessive anti-Jewish hatemongering."[8]

I think there are plenty of additional good quality sources supporting the above quotes and assertions. Bus stop (talk) 04:21, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Have you seen the relevant discussions at BLPN: BLPN search results and DRN: Mikis Theodorakis on the almost exact same passage? Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 04:24, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

this discussion clearly shows that the information should be in the article from the jerusalem post, LA times, etc. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive115#Mikis_Theodorakis .

this one shows that only dr k and athenean are opposed to the material's inclusion, and even rob agreed with me to include it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive136#Mikis_Theodorakis .

and this source shows how poorly written the article is (which is why i have been trying to improve it lately!) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive58#Soapboxing_in_the_Mikis_Theodorakis_article .

thanks dr k for bringing these back up. Soosim (talk) 06:27, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Please see above what Off2riorob said:

I removed it - this discussion and the clear support of three editors. Off2riorob (talk) 21:04, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

He actually removed the whole passage: October 2011 (edit) (undo) Off2riorob (talk |contribs) (→‎Accusations of Anti-Semitism and Theodorakis' apology: as per talkpage consensus) And your other link "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive58#Soapboxing_in_the_Mikis_Theodorakis_article" says nothing about sources. And you already got a warning about blanking information on your talkpage today. So much about you improving the article. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 06:46, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

what are you talking about? what warning? did you mean warming? that i get a lot! why slander me? i saw you got a few warnings on your talk page about edit warring and losing your rollback privileges, etc. Soosim (talk) 08:08, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Disputed

I should do some writing...

I apologise, because lately, my work and my reading about ADO and DAO] microsuck technologies has taken most of my time. I am gonna work on this article this weekend. What I'm going to do, is write in the reasons that Mikis gives for calling Israelites the root of all evil. Does that sound good? Project2501a 20:27, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Actually, Mikis attempted to rephrase his original sayind to "Israelites are AT the root of all evil", meaning that they are amidst a situation that's above their own will and too difficult to resolve. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is outside the scope of this article, so please concentrate on Mikis' biography solely. Mikis does not need anyone to jump at his defense; his life achievements are the best answer to his critics, if presented as facts. Etz Haim 23:30, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Niko, cool, then, i'm removing the disputed tag from the top of the article Project2501a 21:39, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Nice, but regarding the considerations expressed above, this article needs major rewriting. I should return to it when I have the time. Etz Haim 09:50, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Obviously, this article is not an unbiased view of the man and his services to peace and human dignity, that he expressed in numerous occasions. My opinion is that the quoted political views are way out of context and presented in such a way as to present Mikis as an anti-semite and racist individual. It is my belief that this effort emanates from Mikis' stance against an arrogant and war-loving attitute that has taken Washington (and Tel-Aviv of course) in the years after the fall of the Soviet Union. Such a stance, though, shows who Mikis has been all along! --Ank99 07:29, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC) el:User:ank

Re the Haaretz interview, skeptics should note that Ha'aretz is considered to be THE leftist daily newspaper of a generally middle-to-left oriented Israeli media. Ari Shavit in particular is a regular and systematic critic of the occupation and of Israeli government from a decidedly left wing and humanitarian standpoint. Thus, the suspicion that this is some media conspiracy to "frame" Theodorakis merely for criticizing Sharon's government, makes no sense. Far harsher critics of Israeli politics have been major contributors to Haaretz.

That an "arrogant and war-loving attitude has taken Tel-Aviv" is a profoundly ignorant statement. To begin with, all three political branches of the state reside in Jerusalem. More importantly, the people of Tel-Aviv or Jerusalem are no more 'war-loving' than the people of Athens or Zurich or wherever YOU are from. -- 22:36, 04 Jan 2006 (UTC)

No need to "frame" anybody. Theodorakis is a self-proclaimed anti semitic of the "old fashion" Christian sentiment toward Jews. His description. He elaborated on his views on a Greek TV interview. He later tried to distance himself from that specific term (that he chose for himself) in his homepage by re-classifying and redefining antisemitism, but at the same page he repeated the classic claims of Jewish world dominance. You can't call an article that's obviously trying to play down the root of Mr. Theodorakis' preference for the Arab side of the conflict "biased against peace". He took a side and it wasn't for the love of peace. I want to add to the previous criticism on the ignorant inclusion of "Tel Aviv" in the "peaceful" argument. More than how the government works there, the writer obviously doesn't know much about the geo-politics of Israel. 134.134.137.73 (talk) 21:47, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Accusations of anti-semitism section

Following the recent ruckus regarding this section, I have a looked into this a bit more in depth. First, it is quite clear the first and second sentences refer to the same interview (According to the Los Angeles Times, "in the course of a (2011) television interview"...and In early 2011, Theodorakis made comments on Greek television...). By the way the full quote of Theodorakis, as given in an opinion piece in Ta Nea, one of Greece's leading dailies is "Ναι, είμαι αντισημίτης και αντισιωνιστής. Αγαπώ τον εβραϊκό λαό και έχω ζήσει μαζί του, αλλά οι Αμερικανοεβραίοι κρύβονται πίσω από τα πάντα, τις επιθέσεις στο Ιράκ, τις οικονομικές επιθέσεις στην Ευρώπη, στην Αμερική, στην Ασία, οι Εβραιοαμερικάνοι βρίσκονται πίσω από τον Μπους, τον Κλίντον και πίσω από τις τράπεζες»". Translation: "Yes I am anti-semitic and anti-zionist. I love the Jewish people and have lived among them, but the American Jews are behind everything these days, the attacks on Iraq, the economic attacks on Europe, in America, in Asia, the Jewish Americans are behind Bush, Clinton, and behind the banks.". In my opinion, the first two sentences should be combined, and the quote given in full. Athenean (talk) 06:41, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

The whole piece and the header title needs a rewrite - his comments here don't seem to be in the way of apology imo but more a repeat of his statement and a clarification of his comments. Off2riorob (talk) 17:14, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

yes, rob, for sure. and athenean - let's try the full quote: "Yes I am anti-semitic and anti-zionist. I love the Jewish people and have lived among them, but the American Jews are behind everything these days, the attacks on Iraq, the economic attacks on Europe, in America, in Asia, the Jewish Americans are behind Bush, Clinton, and behind the banks." thanks, Soosim (talk) 17:30, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Changed my mind. He obviously doesn't know what he's saying anymore. You should have taken up my offer while it was still valid. Forget it now. Athenean (talk) 17:34, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm wondering if you read this: "With the whole section to view instead of just one part taken out of context as was posted on the Internet, you would have to be a complete imbecile not to realise that the term anti-Semite was, without doubt, a slip of the tongue made at the end of a gruelling, two-hour-long interview. How could a professed anti-Semite go on in his very next sentence to say that he loves Jewish people and hates anti-Semitism? Be that as it may, my enemies saw the chance they had been waiting for and pounced." Wonder who he's talking about. Athenean (talk) 17:37, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Zionists? - It says in the lede "He continues to speak out in favor of left-liberal causes, Greek-Turkish-Cypriot relations, and against the War in Iraq.[2][3] He has consistently opposed oppressive regimes and was the key voice against the Greek Junta 1967-1974, which imprisoned him.[4]" - so the people he considers his enemies could be a whole bunch of people/governments. He just seems like a man of peace to me, and he doesn't like what he sees as some of the bad stuff in the world which he sees as propagated by USA and Jews and he has repeated it and clarified it, I am not seeing an apology for that. He corrected himself that he is not an anti Semite (a slip of the tongue after a two hour interview) which was accepted. Off2riorob (talk) 17:51, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

He is very much a man of peace, in stark contrast to many of his detractors. The whole thing is being given way too much undue weight, and in my opinion should be removed altogether. Athenean (talk) 19:39, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

i have no doubt he is a man of peace. very nice. however, we have several reliable sources saying what he said. if afterwards he apologized (slip of the tongue), fine - but both the statement and the apology are noteworthy. i will be editing this in the near future to include all of it. your comments are welcome, of course. (i see that i asked something earlier and no one even bothered to respond. very nice. thanks.) Soosim (talk) 18:43, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

This sounds like a declaration of intent to edit-war. I would advise you not to do it for obvious reasons. The consensus is against you at this time. Unless this consensus changes I will report you for edit-warring if you add this against consensus. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 18:48, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Second that. Athenean (talk) 19:31, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Third that. I looked over everything that was written above, and it's clear that Soosim has an agenda. Theodorakis' FULL quote, as well as the context in which it was given, makes it perfectly clear that the man is not an anti-Semite. This is a complete non-issue.Nojamus (talk) 17:37, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

header

The header needs changing from Accusations of Anti-Semitism and Theodorakis' apology to a less attacking one there also wasn't really an apology, perhaps - Opinions on Jews and Zionism ? or 2011 comments on Jews and Zionism - ?

I agree with your well-made points. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 18:57, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

See my point above. This is just a single slip of the tongue in a single interview, and is being given far too much weight. Athenean (talk) 19:39, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

If this piece of news was not covered widely you have a good point. In the context of his contributions it may indeed be given undue weight. Let's not forget Theodorakis has composed anti-Nazi music supporting the victims of the holocaust in his musical work Mauthausen. Even Simon Wiesenthal has commented on why Mauthausen should not be forgotten. Mikis Theodorakis composed his Mauthausen music to make sure noone forgets Mauthausen like Simon Wiesenthal wanted. Maybe we can mention this work more extensively in the article. This has not been mentioned so far in any detail. Or about the Mauthausen trilogy, quote: In less than two months, the Hebrew and English version of the Mauthausen Cantata were created - thanks to the help of Elinoar Moav Veniadis, Julie Dennis and Nadia Weinberg. Quote from the Mauthausen cantata: Christians, I am no murderer. No wild animal to eat you I have escaped from prison To go back to my home. Ah! What solitude of death In this country of Bertolt Brecht! Yannos [Ber] is handed over to the SS They take him now for execution. If there is a more pro-semitic work than this please do let me know. Thank you. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 20:41, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

I also support the comment of Athenean that "This is just a single slip of the tongue in a single interview, and is being given far too much weight." - really,... if is is to be mentioned, it doesn't really warrant its own section. Titillating stuff like this, to actually give it its correct context you would need a couple of paragraphs, which would also make it undue, so its undue now because its not correctly explained and to correctly explain it would also make it undue - my personal position would be to remove just remove it. Off2riorob (talk) 20:20, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Thank you Rob. I agree with you. I also added some more info in my comments above to provide some more context to Theodorakis' pro-semitic work. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 20:32, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

I removed it - this discussion and the clear support of three editors. Off2riorob (talk) 21:04, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Thank you very much again Rob. Take care. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 21:08, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

uh, wow - you guys work fast. make your own consensus without waiting. nice. good job. anyway, the LA Times, the Jerusalem Post and others is considered significant. this is not the boise bee..... so, please revert using the LA Times quote as the most significant. thank you. Soosim (talk) 07:12, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Soosim, you are trying to push forward a viewpoint that is clearly wrong. The LA Times and the JPost quoted a misleading excerpt from a 2 hour interview. Theodorakis said in the very next sentence that he loves the Jewish people. Why wasn't that printed? Why didn't these noble journalists remind their readers that Theodorakis was the first one to break the embargo on Israel when he brought his orchestra there? Or that he fought against the Nazis? Or that he composed a work called Mauthausen in memorial of the Nazi atrocities at that city? etc. etc. etc. etc. If this guy is an anti-semite, as you claim, we're all anti-semites. Clearly, of course, that's not the case.Nojamus (talk) 17:48, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

so why not include both, if you have RS for both? why delete something which was reported in an RS? why use your own OR to prove what he meant? that is not how wikipedia works.... Soosim (talk) 06:56, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

June 2013: A member of parliament of the neo-fascist Golden Dawn Party has denied the Holocaust in the Greek Parliament on June 6th, 2013. Mikis Theodorakis responded a few days later with a full-page article in the daily newspaper "Ta Nea". The Central Board of Jewish Communities in Greece thanked Theodorakis in a letter for this release, and published an English translation of the article on his website: http://www.kis.gr/en/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=482:mikis-theodorakis-responds-to-holocaust-deniers-&catid=49:2009-05-11-09-28-23 Under the title "Greek Jews praise Theodorakis stance on Holocaust denial" the European Jewish Congress published parts of the letter of the Central Board of Jewish Communities in Greece on its website: “When the voice of a freedom fighter, a man of Letters and Culture, a great composer who created a requiem for the Holocaust victims… joins our voice and the voices of Greek democratic citizens, then there is hope to believe that our democracy can actually be a shield against the threats launched by the seekers of Nazism.” (http://www.eurojewcong.org/greece/9688-greek-jews-praise-theodorakis-stance-on-holocaust-denial.html) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.189.96.96 (talk) 11:00, 28 June 2013 (UTC)